Here's a show stopper for you.Jack lott had a 8 bore double BP rifle that fired a 2 oz ball and backed by 12 drams of FG powder.Also had a 1200gr conical mold and was in the process of working up loads for that.The gun weighs 16 lbs.and has 22" barrels.Four bores used a1882gr bullet and 14 drams of powder.Can't imagine touching that off .Both of these outdo the Nitro-Express cartridges from H+H.......Harold

FG

That is great on paper, but how will it perform in the field on the animal? There is no room, in my mind, for guessing when you decide to pull the trigger on a any animal. I want to know that the bullet is going to perform as humanely as possible.

I have a great load worked up for a 200 grain XTP, but I am still unsure of it's performance onan animal. Until I know and I am sure, I will not use it. I will need to gain that confidence from some one else or by reading or looking at a book.I have been personally confident of this load for two years now but still have not taken the chance and shot an animal, but when Ido that the first time, therewill be with another gun available if I fail. Eventually I'll get there but it is going to take a while.

every load ive shot game with, from a 150 grain loose pyrodex load with a 245 powerbelt to my current 385 great plains load has done perfectly. Its more common sense than anything else. Bigger animal = bigger bullet needs to do the job.

FG

So with that theory, you would say that my 130 grain .277 might be to small for an elk - I should use my 200 grain .308 instead....

I would disagree bullet size does not inform you of the energy - velocity or damage that the bullet will do.

Same goes with the ML... @ this point the 10mm 200 grain XTP may carry more velocity and energy that a 300 grain .452

Big is not always better - but I would say the bullet with the best performance is best - no matter what size. An if we arestill talking rifle bullets....

With pure lead bullets the conventional wisdom is bigger is better. New Jersey in fact changed theirML rules to allow sabotsand rifles bullets for better performaceas requested by their hunters.... They went smaller and quicker....

While I am an advocate of large calibers and or large projectiles. I can not overlook simple shot placement. No matter what size the projectile, you put that into or through the right place and that animal will die. Maybe not where it stands, but it will go down.

Large caliber roundball work great, but face it... If I knew the shots were going to be 150 yards, they would not be the projectile of choice. I would want something more streamline, fast and something that will get there with still plenty of energy. That is why I understand Sabotloader's position about the distance he "might" encounter and why he would opt for a sabot over a roundball and even a conical.

Now conicals to me are the real fascination. Because of their weight, they can be moving at a much slower speed then other projectiles and still have impressive energy and do impressive damage on animals. I used to shoot large Buffalo Bullet 425 grain conicals many years ago at deer. The reason I stopped was I was causing too much meat damage, and I knew at the distances I was encountering, a simple roundball would do the job just as well. That is one reason I went to the REAL conicals. The smaller one is 300 grain and it does a beautiful job at bringing down deer.

As for the 7mm mag VS the .243, and interesting debate. I have heard it before. Well I never shot a .243 at a deer so I can not comment on them. I have a friend though that swears by a 243. He has done some impressive distance shots. Also, I do not own a .270. Now that was one caliber that I never picked up on, but others have. But I sure shot a lot of deer with a 7mm mag. And,in my younger days, and at some very impressive distances. I never had a deer run off after being hit with one, so I can not say what it would do in a head to head test. For centerfires, that 7mm mag and the old 30-06 were my favorites. Granted, hunting with a 30-30 or a 7.62x39mm is a lot of fun, but if I really neededto fill a freezer and the shots were long distance, I would have my 7mm mag.

Not arguing over this subject. Read what you want to read. I just stick with what i know works. I dont hunt with centerfires anymore so i dont bother reading anything about that topic. Ive shot one elk in my life with my brothers .270 and a 140 grain boattail. Thats all the animals ive shot with centerfire. When i go elk hunting i know i'll be using a 348g powerbelt and 100-110 grains RS. I know that will make some serious meat.

"P 206. We are asking the rather simple pistol bullets of the time to do something they were never intended to do. …. The muzzle velocity of a ML using the same bullet is often approaching 2,000 fps. The bullets can’t handle it and come apart on impact, resulting in poor penetration."

Never had any problem with "pistol bullets"in my muzzleloaders. Used to use 130-150 grains of Pyrodex RS and pellets with Hornady 240 grain XTP bullets. Never had any problem killing deer and hogs with those loads. Some bullets did exit, others did not. Not to matter, over 90 percent of the animals hit were bang flops. Pick my shots carefullybecause ipersonally do not like to track wounded animals.

The only big game animal i ever lost was a cow elk in 2003. She was shot at about 90 yards dead through the lungs. Five of us looked for her in vain for over seven hours after the blood trail petered out.Another hunter found her and took her out. Later talked with him. He did not find the very small exit hole until he skinned the animal. That the elk was lost because i had switched from the 240 grain XTP to that useless 250 grain TC PTX that did not expand when it hit her.The powder charge was 150 grains of Pyrodex RS.

"P 210 Extensive testing of ML bullets has shown that the higher velocity of magnum charges does not guarantee deeper penetration. In fact, usually the opposite is true. The key is the bullet’s terminal ballistic characteristics. An overwhelming majority of ML bullets will over-expand or fragment, which impedes penetration, when impact velocity approaches 2,000 fps. When testing both 100 and 150g propellant charges, it is common to find the bullet using the lighter charge will penetrate deeper."

This is true of sabot loads. Depending on the circumstances, the over-expansion can be a good thing.i'vedressed deer and hogs thathad beengutshotbut just flopped over dead. Examination of the heart and lungs showed penetration and laceration from bullet fragments.

Bryce Towsley didn't like pistol bullets including the XTP early on. He now likes the designer saboted bullet. He liked big conicals like the TC Maxi-hunter over XTP in a sabot. I have a lot of respect for the XTP and wondered if this would push anyone else button, because it was counter to my experience also. I shoot Noslers, but would have no problem shooting XTPs. My son shoots them and one of my friend's, and usually it is boom floop with the XTPs, even hitting bone.

Chap Gleason

I thought over expansion lead to fragmentation, which limited penetration and then was more likely to wounded an animal.
Chap Gleason

"I thought over expansion lead to fragmentation, which limited penetration and then was more likely to wounded an animal."

Not necessarily, especially ifit fragments inside the body cavity.