Traditional & tight groups??
01-31-2007, 09:42 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Loveland CO.
Posts: 129
Traditional & tight groups??
Just starting to think about getting into ML and I am torn. Will hunt Elk in Co.so no sabots or scopes, no biggy just a data point. I am moving from 7RM so I am giving up huge range options. That said. . . .I am already hooked on the old days pretty bad so I can see that if you give me the thumbs up for reasonable groups at 100/150yards I am good to go. . .
Leaning torwards, Lyman Great plains hunterwith 57GPR/17AEU sights. I would use conacles and would hope to get that combination to under 4" at 100 and under 5/6" at 150 and still have enough energy at 150 to geter done.
Is this just wishful thinking? Or must I go with a new style inline?
Leaning torwards, Lyman Great plains hunterwith 57GPR/17AEU sights. I would use conacles and would hope to get that combination to under 4" at 100 and under 5/6" at 150 and still have enough energy at 150 to geter done.
Is this just wishful thinking? Or must I go with a new style inline?
01-31-2007, 10:09 AM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,425
RE: Traditional & tight groups??
1st...I would like to point out the obvious...We have no elk (well we have transplanted a few in the mountains)...in NC...and I have never hunted elk....But...
I have hunted with flintlocks since the mid 70s and did a ton of research before building my own flintlock back in the 80s....
When the NMLRA came out with their first record book, the record grizzly bear was killed with a .54 caliber Hawken-style rifle and 120 grains of FF black powder behind a .530 caliber round ball.....The range was about 100 yards and the flattened ball went through the lungs and was found under the hide on the off side...So a .54 caliber ball (about 220-230 grains in weight) is "enough"....
A good Hawken-styled rifle with 100-120 grains of FF powder behind a good conical will take out an elk...
The biggest advantage inlines give you is that because of their style it is easier to mount a scope (since you can't use a scope this shouldn't matter)...
Make sure to do your research and buy a rifle that has the proper twist rate and depth for conicals...As a rule of thumb...Most inlines are rifled one complete turn in 28 inches (1-28) this has been found to be a good twist for stabilizing the 250-300 grain saboted pistol bullets used in these guns....A good conical twist for a .50 caliber is 1-48 and a good round ball twist is 1-66...Also, a true round ball barrel is usually cut rifled .012-.015 deep and for conicals and sabots the rifling is usually button-rifled, about .006 deep....Hope this helps....
I have hunted with flintlocks since the mid 70s and did a ton of research before building my own flintlock back in the 80s....
When the NMLRA came out with their first record book, the record grizzly bear was killed with a .54 caliber Hawken-style rifle and 120 grains of FF black powder behind a .530 caliber round ball.....The range was about 100 yards and the flattened ball went through the lungs and was found under the hide on the off side...So a .54 caliber ball (about 220-230 grains in weight) is "enough"....
A good Hawken-styled rifle with 100-120 grains of FF powder behind a good conical will take out an elk...
The biggest advantage inlines give you is that because of their style it is easier to mount a scope (since you can't use a scope this shouldn't matter)...
Make sure to do your research and buy a rifle that has the proper twist rate and depth for conicals...As a rule of thumb...Most inlines are rifled one complete turn in 28 inches (1-28) this has been found to be a good twist for stabilizing the 250-300 grain saboted pistol bullets used in these guns....A good conical twist for a .50 caliber is 1-48 and a good round ball twist is 1-66...Also, a true round ball barrel is usually cut rifled .012-.015 deep and for conicals and sabots the rifling is usually button-rifled, about .006 deep....Hope this helps....
01-31-2007, 11:03 AM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Loveland CO.
Posts: 129
RE: Traditional & tight groups??
Hawkeye. . .thanks for the reply. . . .all good points. . . . The good news. . .the great plains hunter is a 1 in 32" twist made just for us folks who wish maximum accuracy with conacles. But being a ML newby I just don't have the feel yet on what I should expect from such a gun using sights as mentioned once I get my loads dialed in. From what I have been reading on the boards here it seems like the groups I suggest are not too outside what I should expect. I was just hoping to see something from you folks that suggests that yes the lyman Greatplains with the sights mentioned will yield my expected results.
01-31-2007, 11:10 AM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,081
RE: Traditional & tight groups??
I have basically what you are looking at getting. I have a Lyman GPR 54 and recently got the50 GPH barrel for it. I have the 57 peep on it and the 17 front site on the GPH barrel. While schedule and weather have not allowed me to get to the range and shoot it yet, I expect the hunter barrel to do well with conicals. The load I'm hoping to get going is a 460 No Excuses conical over 70 to 90 grains of 777 for a velocity of around 1400 to 1500. At those speeds the only thing that will keep me from taking down an elk is how well I can place the shot. It will have over 1000 FP of energy out to at least 400 yards so range becomes a matter of shooting ability not whether the load is up to it or not. When sighted in for an 8" point blank range it gives a point and shoot to around 160 and it should be down about 12 to 14 inches at 200. I just need to go to the range and find the most accurate powder load for it.
Good luck and let us know what you get.
Good luck and let us know what you get.
01-31-2007, 05:13 PM
#5
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,149
RE: Traditional & tight groups??
Leaning torwards, Lyman Great plains hunterwith 57GPR/17AEU sights. I would use conacles and would hope to get that combination to under 4" at 100 and under 5/6" at 150 and still have enough energy at 150 to geter done.
Is this just wishful thinking? Or must I go with a new style inline?
I think those groups are possible. If you can get them, be very satisfied.
I would bet you can kill an elk without difficulty but I'm not the expert on that subject.
Is this just wishful thinking? Or must I go with a new style inline?
I think those groups are possible. If you can get them, be very satisfied.
I would bet you can kill an elk without difficulty but I'm not the expert on that subject.
01-31-2007, 05:46 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fargo, ND
Posts: 1,800
RE: Traditional & tight groups??
I used to use a 7mm Rem Mag before I got into muzzleloading. I like in CO and will be hunting this fall with the Lyman Great Plains and a roundball or ball-et. The GPH will do sweet with conicals. I am sure that the No Excuses or the Hornady Great Plains will do great in the rifle. If you would like to shoot 150yds you will really need to practice but it can be done! I would really reccomend the 54cal. I think it is the perfect caliber. You will love it. I have two 54cals. Here is a link to some No Excuses conicals that you might try. They would really work good on elk. I am really glad to hear that you are going the traditional way. Good Luck and get a lot of practice in. I would go with Pyrodex RS or Goex FFG in that rifle. http://members.aol.com/noexcusesb/page3.html
Kirk
Kirk
02-01-2007, 07:55 AM
#7
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Loveland CO.
Posts: 129
RE: Traditional & tight groups??
Guys. . .thanks for the replies. . . .looks like all that is left now is a sales job on the wife and lots of practice this spring. I may have to get a fresh pair of glasses as well.
Sharpshooter says,"If you would like to shoot 150yds you will really need to practice but it can be done!"
I would prefer a nice 50/75 yards from the trees but I could end up with a trophy bull shot like last season where this bad boy was 200 and change from cover and stayed there for what seeemed like the entire day. But that was last season and I was stuck with a cow tag so all I could do with the 7RM was wish he has a girl friend.
Do I really want to go .54? That's alotta lead to be throwing. What about trjectories? It has got to be interesting.
Sharpshooter says,"If you would like to shoot 150yds you will really need to practice but it can be done!"
I would prefer a nice 50/75 yards from the trees but I could end up with a trophy bull shot like last season where this bad boy was 200 and change from cover and stayed there for what seeemed like the entire day. But that was last season and I was stuck with a cow tag so all I could do with the 7RM was wish he has a girl friend.
Do I really want to go .54? That's alotta lead to be throwing. What about trjectories? It has got to be interesting.
02-01-2007, 03:25 PM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fargo, ND
Posts: 1,800
RE: Traditional & tight groups??
I really like the 54cal. The 50cal will do but I really like that 54cal. You can get conicals from 300gr to 600gr for the 54cal. You will not be dissapointed with it. I have 2 of them because I like that caliber a lot.
02-01-2007, 04:31 PM
#9
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Traditional & tight groups??
I also would recommend the .54 caliber. Whether I would suggest shooting 150 yards with open sights, all I can say is it will take a lot of practice. The Lyman Great Plains Hunter should shoot the Lyman Maxi Ball real well. The Maxi Ball will take care of any animal you want to confront.
When I hear people worry about the trajectory of a .54 VS a .50 caliber, to me it is the same difference as when I shoot sabots or conicals. Sure the conical has a more rainbow trajectory, but you sight the rifle in for that, and you learn the different drops so what's the difference? It's all a matter of practice.
The .54 caliber will carry more lead. More lead means more energy down range. While the .54 caliber shooting conicalstrajectory might be a little more rainbow then a .50 caliber shooting conicals there is not that much difference. And when the bigger conical hits, I think the effect will be more then appreciated.
When I hear people worry about the trajectory of a .54 VS a .50 caliber, to me it is the same difference as when I shoot sabots or conicals. Sure the conical has a more rainbow trajectory, but you sight the rifle in for that, and you learn the different drops so what's the difference? It's all a matter of practice.
The .54 caliber will carry more lead. More lead means more energy down range. While the .54 caliber shooting conicalstrajectory might be a little more rainbow then a .50 caliber shooting conicals there is not that much difference. And when the bigger conical hits, I think the effect will be more then appreciated.
