---

ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman


</softly spoken>
Pglasgow,
I agree the lost deer is my fault, since I didn't hit the deer properly behind the front shoulder where I was aiming, and I was using a bullet that is known not to penetrate and I was NOT aware of that. It is NOT well know outside of this forum that PB don't penetrate. Also, I did not say people are lazy, I said they want easy loading as I do, it is not wrong or lazy to want easy loading. That is why I clean betweenshots anduse Crushed Rib sabot, the cleaning is for accuracy and ease of loading.
I am sorry I offened you by talking about your PB bullets, that was not my intent to offend you. I do not think people arelazy for using PB, but I do thinka lot of people, including myself 3 years ago,don't know their limitations.
So again forgive me if I offended you and other PB users out there.
Chap Gleason

---

---

ORIGINAL: ahankster

I am really at a loss.
For a couple of years people have been complaining about power belts blowing up. The die hard pb users made many arguments to ignore the poor performance and say it wasn't so. PB even came out with a "new" bullet that they said would hold together better. Why would they do that if the doggone things weren't blowing up?
So, now we are finally at a point where people are (well most people anyway) admitting that the PBs blow to pieces. But the argument now is that they will still use them because they would only take a double lung rib shot. Now, somebody please explain it to me why you would WANT to limit yourself to a bullet that you admit can't take a bone hit (or even a flesh hit when loaded hot) from the start? Why would I load my gun with something that I KNOW may not perform if I don't get just the right, broadside, shot?

I consider myself an ethical hunter. I do not take head shots and unless really pushed would not take a neck shot. If at all possible I want the same thing everyone here wants. A double lung, top of the heart, full passthrough. Deer is walking dead at that point. BUT, deer hunting isn't always broadside shots. I shot a buck last thursday that is just that. Just before dark a 120 class 9 point walks out. He is 100 yards away, head down, feeding and there was only about 10 mins left of daylight. He wasn't moving I had the only shot I had. Knowing that I had a gun in my hands that shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yards and that the shockwave would probably go lengthwise on the deer. I settled down with a good rest, put the x at the joint between his neck and shoulder blades and let him have it. Big boy didn't take a step. The bullet entered exactly where I had aimed, went through the spin, betweenthe lungs, blew up the liver and lodged under the right hip.
A pb would have probably spined him just as well, they are accurate. But some folks here say they only take broadside shots?
I just can't understand walking into the deer woods with a load that from the start is limited to broad side shots. What happens when that deer of a lifetime walks out and just won't give you that shot? Do you take the chance with the pb on crippling him or loosing him?
Hank

---

---

ORIGINAL: Pglasgow

Chap, I haven't hunted with Powerbelts. I know lots of people that do. I think the point you've missed all along is that there are situations where projectiles like the Powerbelt are the appropriate choice. It's the all ornothing philosophy that I take issue with. I've said this before, we haveno evidence that a heavy, slower movingunjacketed projectile of equivalent impact energyto a lighter faster movingjacketed projectile will be less effective in killing or penetrating game. It doesn't make sense topaint the whole PB picture as though its 100 grains and a 245 PB. Every weight of PB performs differently with that same 100 grains. Learning isfinding out what went wrong and why.And it turns out that thereis always more than one solution to a problem, the one you proposed is just one of them.

---

---

ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman

so Ihave no need for a bulletthat will not penetrate.

---

---

ORIGINAL: Pglasgow

chap, you are still not getting it. I consider the statement above a half truth. In fact, there is context where your conclusionis downright false. If using a powbelt is unethical, then using a roundball is unethical, or using a bow is unethical based on the same arguments you and hank are positing. That's simply ludicrous. Bullets, roundballs, and arrows don't have ethics. Hunters have ethics. It up to an individual to learn to hunt ethically. There are PB users, I am sure, who would take issue with the ethics of taking less than ideal shots because of bullet one has chosen. Likewise you can't make the choice of placing a PB properly a subject of questionable ethics for them.

---

---

ORIGINAL: ahankster

I guess another way I look at it is that when I hunt, things are always changing. Where, when and how changes, sometimes several times throughout the day.

I just can't see putting a limitation on myself with a projectile that I know up front only works under certain "conditions". I want a projectile that will work in EVERY condition, I don't like to settle. I don't want a bullet that might or might not work unless I get a
"certain" shot. Also, I never said all the PBs were junk. I said that the ones above 295 grains were best and they were at their best when the powder charge was not too much. Personally, I think the 295 grain pbs are probably OK as long as the powder charge is in the 80 grains or so area. My reason for that is that I have seen the 295 grain PB w/ 100 grains of powder combo fail so badly so often.

If I were in a situation that I only could M/L hunt for a couple of weeks out of the year, I guess I would settle for less in a gun and probably could not or would not justify spending higher amounts of money. But, my gun season lasts from the middle of November until the 31st of January (I hunt with my switchback all of October and the first two weeks of Nov). Since where I hunt the only thing that is allowed is a shotgun, bow or M/Ler, I chose to go with a M/Rer and wanted one of the best. After trying the Optima and not being totally happy, I looked at several of the top end guns and settled w/ the Encore. My gun hunts almost every day, sometimes only for an hour or two after or before work, but almost every day. My gun shoots at least three or four times a week, usually lots more. Often at lunch I go to the range and try out different combinations of bullets, primers or powder. I have a little log book that I did this year to keep track of the deer I am seeing what the conditions were etc. Since Bow season, October I have hunted more this year than many people hunt in ten years. I am very blessed and lucky to be in this situation and I know that.
I see what works and what doesn't, what is bs and what isn't. I can't afford to buy something that will not hold up to heavy daily use whether it is a gun or a climbing stand.
I guess it is all in the eyes of the user.
Hank

---

---

ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman

I am sorry, I don't get your half truth statement . . .

---