RE: Powerbelt Disintegrates
 

I pulled the trigger, I selected the bullet and I am responsible. I acknowledge that. I chose to shoot, a good broadside shot at 125 yards---I have noregrets on that I selected the PB bullet, however I was NOT aware of it's limitations, so I am in error on that, I didn't do my homework. I went with the crowd to buy PBs they load easy and are accurate. I accept that responsibility for that mistake of not doing my homework and not learning to properly shoot them. Now for what happen on a "shoulder hit" of my buck with a PB at 125 yards with 3 50g 777 pellets; I know now I was driving them too fast. I didn't know then, as I am sure most beginning MLer didn't know it. I didn't know till tonight that CVA Corp acknowledged that you can drive a 295 PB too fast. I to this day believe that if I was shooting a Nosler Partition 300gor a Barnes300 MZ or a Hornady XTP 300g Mag that I would have got that buck, no doubt about it (and it was a monster, very nice 8 pt). I know that, because I have hit deerin the shoulder with aCF rifle and gotten them. They were NOT wounded and none got away.Now what is motivating you to take on the "Chap Gleason Home Improvement Project"? I would like to hear the answer to that? Justice? Can you be wrong? Do you see the same trait in me that you have and it grates on you (you see the log in my eye very clearly)? What is driving you to take >>me on<< instead of sticking to the PB topic? Lets talkPB bullet fragmentation, not Chap Gleason's hard headness. Is it 'Cause I am stupid balistically? Illogical? Don't know hunting? Don't know ML? I would like to know your logic. I requested we take our conversation offline, because the scripture says "When many words are spoken, sin is not absent.", so that means when I write a lot, I sin a lot, so there is a lot of sin in these word. I am not angy or elevated in tone.
Sincerely replied to,
Chap Gleason Va

RE: Powerbelt Disintegrates
 

now now, dont make me put a muzzle on you 2 boys. I personally use powerbelts due to my state not allowing sabots and my brother and father also use them with excellent success. Last year "2005" i shot a doe that marked 148 yards with my ranger finders, 150 grains loose pyrodex RS and a 245 grain powerbelt, hit it perfectly behind the shoulder and she rolled 5 yards down hill dead. Bullet exited perfectly with an exit hole the size of a half dollar coin. Internals were jellied and all the blood had filled the body cavity. Both lungs were "shot to hell". Also shot another doe at 146 yards but this time with 120 grains loose pyrodex rs, neck shot,hit her right in front of the collar bone and exited high in her neck. That thing was on the ground before the smoke cleared. I personally like the performance they have given me. My brother shota doe this year of 06 from 90yards, a hit spine shot that knocked her down, bullet exited, after the second shot to the lungs, at around 80 yards, the bullet hit her and took out both lungs and exited and a dead deer lay at the ground. My dads first deer ever with a muzzleloader, 50 yard shot, 90 grains pyrodex rs, 295 aerotip PB, entered its chest and busted the collar bone and exited out of its upper shoulder blade. If you remember those tests i was doing with my flintlock some months back, a 295 grain PB with 70 grains ffg blackpowder at 25 yards, the bullet went through a pinion log that was over 1 foot long. And an update! I found the bullet a couple weeks back! i'll post some pics later. I will continue to buy and use powerbelts and hunt with them.$20 for 15 bullets isnt bad anyway when you're getting excellent performance out of them. TC sabots dang near cost the same price for 15 bullets.


Gleason, im wondering what bullet you would use if you were hunting in a state that did not allow sabots and were hunting elk? I personally will be using the 348 grain powerbelts next year if i see any elk that is lol. Ive tried tc maxi balls on deer and had horrible performance out of them. And just to let you know, im not picking on you, i honestly want to know what bullet you would use. I know i can sometimes type of stuff and it sounds like im picking on the person but just to let you know, im not doing so in this case. And again, if you 2 pitbulls dont stop tearing at each others throats im going to muzzle you both and lay you on your backs, head to head... Works on that show Dog Whisperer :D

RE: Powerbelt Disintegrates
 

I would use a 300g SabreTooth based on this article:

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/feedback.html

I sent this article to my brother after his experience and he bought 6 packages of 15 from Cabelas for $6.95 per package. He shot a doe on the Last day of ML season in NY, and had excellent performance with this bullet.

Thanks for your kindrebuke, received andI will take my conversation with pgaslow offline.
Chap Gleason

RE: Powerbelt Disintegrates
 

are you serious? wow. I bought those back in 04 and they shot fair, 3" groups at 100 and so i went with them. Im sure u've read my story already but incase not, the first day of hunting, it was misty out so i slung it barrel down, 20 minutes later i shot at a doe, turns out, the bullet had fallen out of its cup. It would be a good bullet if they improved on its cup design so it wouldnt fall out. When i first saw them i was like coool! a powerbelt without the cost! That day i found out that the little extra to pay was worth the $. I like the sabortooths design but now i would only consider using them for practice shooting. My other choice of bullet, one i have never shot is the 245 grain great plains bullet. I'd like to see how those shoot. I think a dab of super glue at the end of the sabortooth bullet would help keep it in its sabot and then blow it away when the rifle goes off. I may just buyan assortment ofbullets later on and have a day full of shooting. Thanks for the response, im going to start ordering assorments once i get some cash. My latest project is like having a girl friend, burns a hole in your wallet.:D

RE: Powerbelt Disintegrates
 

I'm gonna put this as sensibly as I can, Chap. We are allowed to hunt in so many ways. We have a bow season, a muzzleloading season, and a rifle season. There are states who don't want their muzzleloading season to be equivalent to arifle season. The want to handicap the ML hunter or the bow hunterto make him "hunt harder", "get closer", and participate in a more primitive hunt. Printing something here in bold fonts that people should not hunt in a state that doesn't allow sabots is an elevated tone IMO and its bull**** to begin with.

I have a friend who personally knows 6 local hunters who stuck bull elk with arrows they didn't recover this year.Do you hear me over at the bow forum spouting off you gotta quit hunting with bow? Of course not. Now why? Because in every case, those hunters, if they are hunters at all, got a lessen in what they need to improve. They need to get closer, practice more, whatever. Why punish the folks who put in the practice, understand their weapon, bullet or arrow, and who successfullyharvest their game? This all or none is simply senseless. Nothing personal chap, I'm just saying what it is. It doesn't make sense to a person (like me) who would never select a 295 PB for 125 yard shooting. I don't have anything against you for making a mistake, I've made my share to. But you need to realize that some folks want to shoot a full bore unjacketed conical or a patched roundball. They like to stalk, get close, and experience a more primitive hunt or choose an appropriate conical for long range shooting. If they use them wisely, just like the bowhunter, they should be able to hunt with them or share their experience with them without you commenting what actually constitutes derogarory remarks.

What would be constructive, is for you to understand why you failed. Its not constructiveto paint the picture you are painting. The world isn't black and white. This is why I have notobjected to "PB's (or any other light all lead conical) blowing up". There is context where they do. Understand the context thats all I ask. When its just bad mouthing completely devoid of context, it becomes heresay, andprovably false.

For the record,you've made a wise choice by going to a saboted jacketedprojectile. They are more appropriate for the ranges you are wanting to shoot at and since your state allows them, I encourage you to continue with them. But like I said, your expectations of centerfire-like performanceis the bar you personally have set for your hunting experience. Others have a differentidea about muzzleloading than you. Whether it be patched roundball, powerbelt, NE conicals, whatever,if theyknow their weapon and how to hunt with it ethically, who is anyone to deny or object to their pursuithunting?

What would please me greatly, is if you would stopthe maligning. It is not accomplishing anything and I think its time this thread and the broken record bashing of the powerbelt bullets in other threads stop. If you want to offer constructive ways to use them, then by all means offer suggestions. But if all you have to say is negative things, I for one, am sick of it. Just being frank and honest here. Nothing is black and white, the world is shades of gray. Why don't we let this die?

RE: Powerbelt Disintegrates
 

Yes, I recall reading this about the Sabortooth. Didn't recall you posted it, I have only been back on the Forum abouta month. I already told my brother your experience about it dropping out. He said his are tight in his Encore and he don't think they will drop out. As for the ladies being High Maintenance, yep, Proverbs 31 tells us why. 'Cause they are the super glue of the family. Thanks Chap Gleason

RE: Powerbelt Disintegrates
 

Just out of curosity because I know just how much bore sizes can vary especally in certain brands I dug out some 250 Sabor Tooth bullets I knew were in my storage box and loaded one in the Omega then I wacked the butt acouple of good wacks with a heavy rubber hammer and pulled the breach plug I did it with out powder so I could tell if it moved and it did not.
There for I believe that the problem has to do with either defective bullets or the bore size as it is very hard to be sure which with out access to the gun in question I would suggest that any one using either Sabor Tooth or PB should make sure that they stay where they belong before trusting them. Lee

RE: Powerbelt Disintegrates
 

Yes, good idea, I will pass that along also to my brother. Thanks Chap

RE: Powerbelt Disintegrates
 

heres those pics. The two upper left bullets are 385 grain great plains bullets, the one of the far left thats all spread open is the bullet i pulled from a doe i shot at 20yards through the shoulders and found it barely holding on to the other inside shoulder. The next one to the right is a log i shot at, went in a total of 5 inchs. The white flint is something i found at the lake along with a box full of other flint i picked up, after trimming it, that will be used only as my hunting flint, that sucker showers sparks like crazy. To the right of the flint, are 2 power belts, 295 grain aero tips fired from my flintlock with 70 grains fffg blackpowder at 25 yards, The whole bullet is the one that went totally through a log that was over a foot long and fresh cut pinion. The other powerbelt next to it, is one that didnt go through but went a total of 11inchs. And the little bastard with the star shaped hollow point is the 250 grain sabortooth that fell out of my barrel lol. What do u guys think of shooting it without the plastic skirt? i want to put it to good use so i never have to look at it again.

RE: Powerbelt Disintegrates
 

</wisper tone>

Phil, I just cut and pasted Toby Bridges comments they were in the boldfont on his site. I let it that way, cause it was clear I thought that they were his words not mine. I was NOT trying to elevate the tone of the conversation.

I believe I understand why I failed, because I failed to understand bullet performance in in-line MLers. I didn't do my homework until 3 years ago.

Your statement:
"When its just bad mouthing completely devoid of context, it becomes heresay, andprovably false."

Phil, my context is my personal experience, not hunting in Colorado. I can't speak to hunting in Colorado without sabots, because I have never done it, my context is always the same. My personal experience with the PB 3 years ago and my brother's experience this year. That is understood, I am not Toby Bridges speaking for HP MLing.

I am pleased you approve of my sabot choice. I used the Internet, lots of reading,a phone call to Cabelas, and online chat with Cabelas hunting folks, a discussion with Dead Center President,a personal discussion with Jim Shockey at the Eastern Outdoor showin Feb 2004, andwww.muzzleloadingforum.comand lots and lots of shootingto reachmy Nosler Partition 300g with 100g of 777 loosedecision 3 years ago. I learn new things on here, that is why I like theMLforum on Hunting.net

As for my broken record "on PBs", you do NOT have to read my threads, or my responses, you have the freedom to bypass it. I will reserve the right to tell "Fawns" about PBs, becuse I too was ignorant of them and I feel they don't know. I am trying to warn the uninformed about PBs, and that I feel is my right (did you see the CVA wants us to get the word out?). I will NOT respond with PB things to spikes, rack bucks or higher, they like you have heard my song and dance and are sick of it.The scriptures say (I am paraphrasing):
"It all sounds well, until theopponent speaks" and
"In many counselors wisdom is found."

So I believe the PB Message has to be said for wisdom to be found on the bullet performance issue at least to Fawns; and you don't need to listen, just click the >>Next>> link and branch right around "old PB Song andDance Chap".

You also said this:
"Because in every case, those hunters, if they are hunters at all, got a lessen in what they need to improve."

So I conclude from this statement that you made a judgement that these folks who didn't kill elk but wounded them are "not hunters at all". How can you conclude that? Do you know each and every situation, what arrow, what broadhead, what shot was taken, distance, etc? But yet you conclude "if they are hunters at all", that doesn't square with "they are just learning", 'cause rookies make mistakes. I don'tthink many folks go elk hunting if they are not hunters. Ithink they are learning and crap happens.
</end wisper tone>

</normal speaking>
I request by PM that we take this off line. I also asked you for your phone number so we can talk this thru. But you keep responding publically, Why?
</end normal speaking>
Chap