I do own a $89.00 CVA Staghorn Magnum. .50 caliber, nickel barrel, RED DOT scope, three ignition systems, excellent trigger, fiber optic sights (that broke the first day on the range) and black plastic stock. So I guess I could label the rifle as a "cheap muzzleloader." While if you compare the barrel/hardware to stock fit it will never compare to my Black Diamond XR. They are like day and night. There is a spot on the CVA in the fit, like my Dad used to say, big enough to throw a cat through. (Not real kind for the cat by the way) Also the Spanish barrel while it concerns me, I've shot the rifle a great deal, its held together just fine, and shoots very accurate. I do not shoot magnum loads out of it, and have no desire to do so. But I seldom shoot magnum loads out of any of my rifles. I just do not find it necessary.

What I am getting at is, I do not compare the CVA Staghorn to any of the other rifles and declare, WOW, this thing is really junk. When I purchased the rifle I knew it was an entry level rifle. I fully expected the hardware to stock fit to be not perfect like my $200+ Black Diamond. I think anyone buying these low end rifles are doing so with the same expectations. If not, they might be in for a real let down.

It is an entry level low cost rifle. If people are not concerned about all the stuff they read on the Internet about Spanish Barrels, etc. The low end rifles are a very cost effective way to get into the sport and see if you like the challenge. Actually for someone that hunts an area where there shots are not extreme, and they only hunt a couple days a year and then put the rifle away, this might be the best value on the market. The accuracy of these rifles are more then acceptable and in many cases outstanding. This is usually the because of a person taking the time to work the rifle load, or getting real lucky. Personally I like shooting the rifle. The main thing is, rifles like this get people involved in the sport. I see no need to compare anything. I just enjoy.

All CVA (BPI) & Traditionswas asked to do was answer a couple of questions -- that other ML gun manufacturers like T/C, Knight and Austin-Halleck politely answered when questioned.

Both refused - so both now must carry the baggage associated with being an ML manufacturer that may be legally hiding something that makes their guns inferior to many others.

So since that Chuck Hawks barrel-questioning remains for all to exhibit, it's never been challenged in any court to remove it. So that makes it look like what has been written & suggested may be true.

I'm done here.... just thought I would add my .02 cents

I'll go out on a moderately thick branch and speculate he's talking about Randy Wakeman, a self-promoted Expert & CVA Hater.

I have no financial interest in CVA - and I know that owners of rifles can be bad judges of their relative merits, since there might be the tempation to justify one's purchase - but I'm very satisfied with the CVA Buckhorn I've got (2nd CVA owned). Like Cayagud, I've owned a Staghorn, and found it to be as he reports - a capable though not very pretty rifle. After using it for four years... I was thinking about getting an Omega. Went to the store to buy one- I held it, dry-fired it, thought hard about it - then saw the CVA Buckhorn for seventy-odd dollars. Looked at it... and it seemed to correct everything that wasn't quite right on the Staghorn. IT BALANCED BETTER, and definitely had a better trigger. That it cost a hundred bucks less, sold me, so I bought it... and what a deal. Under a hundred bucks, great trigger, silent safety (easier to use than Staghorn's), well-designed & comfortable stock, substantial ramrod, and and ACCURATE (as accurate as me, anyways...) - what's not to like? Everytime I kill a deer with it - or shoot a good group with cheap bullets - I'm satisfied, and become ever more convinced that Mr. Wakeman isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he.

Cayagud said, of his old Staghorn Magnum - "It is an entry level low cost rifle. " - and this is absolutely true. The GOOD NEWS is... that the 80/20 rule definitely applies in buying a ML for hunting. You certainly buy a better/nicer rifle than a low-end CVA - but you probably won't kill more deer with it. Note: I follow the manufacturer's recommendation for max loads, and feel absolutely safe in doing so. Since the title of this thread was is Good cheap ML, I feel compelled to add something for newbies: don't buy the 150gr, 200-yard hype. A 100gr powder load is a 99% solution for hunting whitetail, at least for me.

One of these days I'll get a Savage ML, just because I like Savages - I've owned two of their rifles - but I doubt I'll kill more deer.

(This is not a reply to outdoorslover)

I own a NEF and have now fired it over 600 times. I do like it. I like it alot. Not anymore than my T/C hawken though, or any less either. Also, I am sure that I don't like it any more that Catus likes his Buckhorn.

I think the important thing is that we buy what feels right to each of us. There isn't a person here who didn't work hard to earn the money which purchased their rifle. I believe each deserves to enjoy what his hard earned money has purchased.

I'm with sabotloader on this one. For every idiot who loaded 3 pellets and left his ramrod in the barrel, there are literally "tens, if not hundreds, of thousands" of individuals who concientiously and safely shoot and hunt with rifles whose barrels are of Spanish manufacture.

My advice to anyone is to shoulder as many rifles as you can. Get one which feels rightand get the "best" rifle your budget can buy. You'll spend many times more than the cost of your rifle in powder, bullets, and primers/caps.

Let's let everyone enjoy their rifles.

Never had any problems with my spanish barrels. Amazing what types of stories they come out with when so far ive only seen 1 cva with any major problems. Apollo. Never heard any reports of any other cva exploding. Other than people using to huge of bullets and more powder than they should. I once came across a guy shooting a traditions .50, the moron loaded up a 410+ grain greatlains bulle and 150 grains powder and hes like.. Why did my barrel explode?!! lol. Funny thing was, he was going to use all that powder and bullet on whitetails. My god, i guess people like ruining a lot of meat. 245/295 bullets are more than enough for deer size game. Im looking for a ML'er to buy my nephew and found it. Winchester is selling the plain jane x-150 for $220! You cant pass up that good of a deal and quality of rifle. Didnt TC has barrel problems in the 70s/80s with the 45cal hawken rifles and barrels exploding? could of sworn i came across that on a traditional MLing site.

I know of someone who overloaded a CVA Bobcat with the GP 410(I won't give specifics). Did it more than once. Of course, he wasn't shooting this rifle from his shoulder. He built an apparatus from which todischarge it and did it as safely as such a test could be done in a field laboratory.He wanted to convince himself that the rifle was safe with the loads the manufacturer approves.

The nipple wasn't dislodged and the barrel wasn't bulged. His report left me convinced that there is nothing wrong with the quality of its Spanish steel.Seemshe got a very good one, built plenty strong enough.

Even so, I suppose there can still be be problem with any particular rifle from any manufacture from defects in workmanship orinsufficient quality control. This is why I always recommend starting with lighter loads (just like with cartridge reloading) and working higherwhen breaking ina new ML rifle. Just makes sense. If thereis aproblem, its at least possible to detect it before dropping 3 pellets.

I really do think that most problems result from lack of respect of the dangers. Specifically, the failure to use a safe loading regimen. I would wager that most burst barrels are the result of leaving a ramrod in the barrel upon discharge.

yeah i've seen people just rammering on the ramrod to seat their bullet and then firing it off. That traditions the guy was shooting wasnt even made for magnum charges and he figured it was. A few months back you may remember my thread about me forgetting to take out my ramrod and firing it off. Son of a gun that winchester has a hell of a barrel lol. 90 grains pyrodex RS, aluminum ramrod, 385 grain great plains bullet. I've never been kicked that hard by a rifle. Funny thing is, that damn bullet and ramrod shot 2" patterns from eachother lol. I checked the barrel/ stock out, everything was perfect. Thats why im considering buying my nephew the x-150. Rifle is built solid. And a lot of problems ive noticed with people is that they dont read their gun manual or know the differences between powders and load a 150 grain loose charge of app and something goes wrong. I personally have never used t7 or app, black mag. So i have no clue what charges would equal 120 grains Pyrodex RS. But if i were to buy some, im not just going to load up a charge and hope its right, im going to be asking. my traditions kentucky rifle shoots 110 grains fffg goex with no problems at all. My 2 most fav Bp rifles i own are those 2. I think my nephew will like an x-150 for christmas, he liked mine.

Its nice to hear you'll be introducing your nephew to muzzleloading.Has he been shooting high powered rifles already? Not knowing his age, be sure you teach him a safe loading regimen. Some tips.

1. Work out a load for him which has similar recoil to rifles/shotguns he is already shooting.

2. Wrap some masking tape on the ram rod and mark two witness marks on it with permanent ink. One where the ram rod is resting on the powder without the bullet, and one where the ram rod is resting on the seated projectile. (Use only one type of projectile and one charge volume while he is learning). Show him how to check to prevent double loading.

3. Don'tshoot the bull with him while he is loading. Let him concentrate on the procedure without having to carry on a conservation.

4. If you observehim make a mistake (load powder twice, load projectile without charge, load projectile twice, load powder over properly loadedprojectile),prevent him from priming the ML, discuss the danger of the mistake, have him use his witness marksto verify the loading mistakes, then walk him through thecharge removal method in the manual.

I do remember when you discharged the X150 with its ramrod in the bore. Since everything worked out OK, I found myself chuckling as you described the recoil. But it was a very dangerous situation, would have been much more dangerous with 150 grains of pellets. Hopefully, with concientious training, your nephew may never have to experience that.

Good luck, Phil

You all know that when different companies contract for guns to be built they set the specs. So in my opinion all spanish barrels are not made equal. Perhaps some of these co. are doing some checking to be sure those specs are meet? Do we really know? Lee

I think that's a fair statement. They aren't all designed for 3 pellets as I understand it. Each has different dimensions (shape). So I think this is a given.

It seems to me, that someone must be doing some checking. I have the sense that, if no one else is,BPI is doingthe checking. Does a retailer or distributor have the responsibility to test the manufacturer's compliance with specs? Maybe, but I think not. I think this rests with the manufacturer. Might be wrong about that though ( but if I had a gun shop i wouldn't want to be sued by someone because I sold a CVA product)

For my part, I wouldn't fear whether CVA, Traditions, etc. are testing. I would concern myself with whether BPI is providing tested products to them.

Phil