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both rifles are cva. the bulltes that i shot are hornday grate planes 385gr hp and bufflo bore ball-let 245gr
L. O. D. Charter member and L.O.S.

"bigcountry, as usual with many of you guys that lean toward the latest gimmics and gadgets, you're mixing apples and oranges again."

I don't think so. Just on my chrono, I see up to 200fps velocity differences. Actually (200fps loss). And entering a realm where your are not really supposed to. And thanks for the complement about latest gimmics and gadgets. Your right on, I am not closeminded, hardheaded person. I use my head and logic.

"Black Powder cartriage is not as limited as the reloading of modern smokeless cartriages, and aren't really comparable.The suggested loads for rifles in black powder are just that, suggested, because of the corperate lawyers for the manufacturers. That is to reduce any possible liabilities. By all means, those not experianced should follow all manufacturers reccommendations. I've used 3f since 1962, some 40 years with great results. I find it more reliable to hold consistancy in accuracy."

Well, I guess you found your load that works for you. Congradulations. Alot of people haven't with this method. And you might want to rethink your thought of not really comparable. Same principle, same physics, same harmonics of the barrel. Wanting to achieve the same thing, one hole real fast.

"The measured charges are more consistant. It's cleaner to shoot and gives better results while wiping between shots, for target matches."

Thank you, now this may be a valid reason and what I was looking for as an answer. I just was hoping it wasn't "Well my daddy told me to do it this way, so I did".

"The "felt recoil" with 3f feels much better on my shoulder after a full days shooting, and I don't develope a flinch, because of anticipation, as often with it."

Gosh, I hope you wouldn't with or without FFF if you shoot as much as you say.

Coondog, thanks for the reply.

Coondog is telling you of 40 years worth of experience shooting 3F grade powder. I started shooting BP in 1971, switched to Pyrodex as soon as it was available and have mostly shot Pyrodex P (3F) grade in every rifle since. Coondog is not misleading you and I would agree with his observations.

One big advantage if you do use a lot of powder, or if you just like to pinch pennies, is getting 10-15% more shots per pound given loads of comparable ballistics. I also agree with the other positive aspects Coondog related. There is no "May" about it.

He has also related to you the major concern WITH using 3F grade powders in rifles over .45 caliber, that being the notion that barrel errosion is greater (notice I didn't say pressure concerns, that isn't THE concern). I've seen no evidence of that whatsoever.

How quickly have those same manufacturers that overlook or recommend against using 3F powders provided load recommendations for Triple 7? Triple 7 is so much hotter than 3F grades of any other sub or black (possibly excepting KIK and Swiss) out there and creates so much higher pressures that one would have to doubt the basis for ANY concern in using rational loads of 3F.

Underclocked, you say hotter. But I am talking about the speed of burning. This is a totally different thing. Blackpowder is fast. I mean real fast. Most of the pressure is exhausted quickly within a few inch's of the barrel like a shotgun using Unique powder. Breaking down the powder to FFF, makes it faster, hence the loss of velocity. Now the barrel is soaking up alot of velocity which I don't want it to do.

Like I said, congrads on Coondog's success with the FFF. Sounds like it works for him and I thank him for his reasons and responces. Don't mean I agree with him. I get great groups and velocity with pyrodex ff. So I get what I am looking for. I mean who's to say I don't have bunchs and bunchs of experience to share with others. Because he has such great experience with FFF, does that mean everyone on the board should change over?

The manual for my .50 Lyman has a chart for maximum loads for blacl powder. The max load for fffg is roughly 10% less than that of ffg.


Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms... who's bringing the chips?

bigcountry <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>does that mean everyone on the board should change over? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
NO! And I don't want them to do so. Would drive the price of my P up!

And I'm not quite following your analysis of burn rates vs velocity, sorry.

If you look at the old Lyman BP manual, the one with Rd Yard's pressure data, it is pobvious that FFFg can produce velocities as high as FFg will, but at somewhat higher pressures, like 12,000 to 15, 000 PSI versus 7,000 to 10,000 PSI. This increase is noticeable, but not enough of a jump to damage any reasonably made gun!! Most BP cartridge rifles are built to be safe at 25,000 PSI or higher, like the Sharps or Rem. Rolling Block.

Keep yore powder dry!!

AGAIN!
Coondog is on the money, Like him I find better results
and cleaner burn with fffg. T/C finds it acceptable for use in their 50 cal hawkin. I didn't &quot;just do this&quot; I arrived at my present
load after hours of bench time trying multiple loads of powder
and projectile combinations. Similar to Coondog I've been doin'
it for decades and my gun shows NO adverse reactions to this load!
NOTHING equals experience in this arena. BUT like Big Country says
&quot;you shouldn't do something cause Daddy did&quot; Even mistakes can be
handed down from generation to generation. There is a plethora
of info here, most of it is invaluable, but some of it needs to be culled through and taken with a grain of salt.
Stay well All, JWB

Ok, here is what I was trying to see if someone would say. Most of the guys in Ky I hunt with use FFF in there rifles. They do it cause they claim there is no delay in fire when thier cap goes off. But one used over 130gr and ended up with some damage somewhere. I don't know the details as I wasn't there. But they used it very half hazardly. This was the same guy using two balls separated by a patch. Swore he did it for years. So with all that wieght in two balls and 130gr of FFF, I think that was the edge. I wasn't aware that some rifle makers actually calls out fff recommendatons. I am used only to using it in my pistol. Learn something everyday.