I know you never said it was unsafe but. There are alot of people that seem to think otherwise. I have never read of anyone getting hurt in the last couple of years from one of there newer magnum guns. Still everyone says that they are not safe. Just would like some proof that they are not safe so that I should not invest in one of those "unsafe" firearms. Thanks for the pellet info too. I thought that 777 had more charge in pellet form as well.

New Muzzleman,

The big thing you need to concern yourself with is how to safely use, load, and discharge your new muzzleloader. Don't kid yourself into thinking that any muzzleloader is safe when not operated concientiously. Save for the Savage, there probably isn't another muzzleloader out their that could stand leaving a ramrod in the barrel when discharged, at least on a 3 pellet load.

As far as short seating and breaking pellets being a major concern, not as much as you might think. A small gap can actually reduce pressure. You have to be considerably short seated to put yourself in harm, way more than an inch. When a rifle discharges, the barrel around the breech expands, if the bullet is not far enough down, then it will not begin moving sufficienctly by the time the barrel on the muzzle end compresses and pinches the bullet tightly. Barrel expands behind the bullet, barrel compresses on the muzzle end. You should always know where you rod should be when your bullet is seated on the charge you have chosen. Some use fingers to check, others mark their rod with say tape. Know where your rod should be when properly seated. If it is very close, then you have nothing to worry about, as long as you remove your ramrod.

Cracking pellets does not at additional air space. It necessarily must reduce it. But what cracking pellets does do is cause the acceleration of their burning. Enough to cause a very dangerous situation? Perhaps with three pellets which have been cracked until they are pulverized into a granulation approaching powder form. Then, you have 150 grains loose in your rifle.

The spanish barrelled rifles, being of lesser price, do often go to first time muzzleloading enthusiasts. People who are either unwilling or unable to commit to the cost of more expensive models. These are the very people who tend to make mistakes from sheer lack of knowledge. In my opinion, if there were no Spanish barrels, the very people damaged using themcouldlikely have been damaged using any other muzzleloader.

Muzzleloaders, themselves, are UNSAFE. How you use your muzzleloader will determine its safety. Whatever rifle you purchase, ask the question here,"how do I operate my new ML safely", or "What's a good load with80 grains or less loose 2f black powder substitute(with 385 grain or less bullet you are in the neighborhood of 10,000psi or less)" Very, very, good deer load. It is my opinion, that any spanish barrel with the load above isconsiderably more safe than any Knight, White, NEF, or T/C with 150 grains of pellets.

Happy Hunting, Phil

You ask the problems that people have actually experianced, my own were not with the barrel, the trigger pull was unbelieveable come close to needing two hands to get it to go off; the lock parts were so soft that they did not hold up for long, when I called and talked to them they did send new ones, and they were so soft I case hardened them. A lot of people complain about the barrel but the barrel in the CVA I had was very accurate you just needed to never make any bad mistakes or over load it.
Due to the types of steel involved they tend to fracture where one of the higher Quality ones would bulge; but don't think that if you goof bad enough it would make any differance any gun can be made into a hand- grenade if the wrong mistakes are made. I all so had the fellow next to me blow a nipple out of one at a target shoot, very unsetteling. Lee

You might also consider what is behind that breech plug to back it up in case of thread failure. If the breech plug lets go - things can get real nasty. The Optima certainly has some significant built in barrier but I would take a harder look at the way the Kodiak (and similar) are designed. Material strength can make a huge difference in that regard.

You wouldn't want the very first shot from a brand new rifle (using a factory approved load) to injure you for life.

I recommend new shooters check out the Huntsman/Sidekick rifles. A few quirks of their own (not SAFETY related)but good value for the money and notoriously accurate.

Beware of posters here that tell you that air gaps from improper loading do not create higher pressures. Beware of posters that tell you that if a specific ML manufacturer was not in business, the same injuries/rifle damage would occur with another manufacturer.

Anyone can come to boards like this & promote/standy bytheir products -- even the manufacturer themselves. So take everything you read here & use numerous comments to draw your own conclusions.

New ML users - mainly newcomers to the sport, have to do all the proper homework/research by reading boards like this one to educate themselves on what rifles best suit their hunting experiences.

You will not find folks that got hurt & are in litigation for damages on ML boards. You won't find their lawyers discussing thecaseshere either. I won't even mention the numerous emails I recieved from hurt shooters & what gun manufacturer caused their demise.You are entitled to buy whatever you want. It's your choice to take higher risks with certain manufacturers.

So buy any rifle you want & enjoy it. I'm done here preaching about safety.

Adios!

This is why I purchased the Sidekick. But just as an aside. I don't think I would have much confidence in any breech plug. Threads, especially pipe type threads just seem woefully inadequate when one begins tothinkabout 25,000 psi or (44,000 psi for Savage).

Happy Hunting, Phil

I have in no way tried to undermine safety one bit. I would like for light to be shed on the safety issue. The bulletbecomes an obstruction when there is too much breech space "BEHIND" the bullet. It should be clear that there is more breech space in 150 grains of pellets than there is in 80 grains loose powder. I'm sorry, but I feel confident that 80 grains in a 100 grain breech volume is safer (the projectile less of an obstruction) than 150 grains with the bullet seated right on the charge.

If I have one problem with the things T7 says, it is simply that there is no reasonable context from which one may gain knowledge for reasonably safeuse. Even were the Spanish barrels extruded from steel as "soft" as 1020 mild steel,if operated below 10,000 psi, they would have a design safety factor of 5 to 1. The same is not true of the3 pellet, "monster bullet" loads I have read T7 suggest in his posts.

I personally would beware of anyone who suggested that you are safer shooting max charge, monster bullet loads in American made muzzleloaders than you are in shooting moderate, 1/2 the pressure loads through a Spanish barrel. Why? Because it just isn't true.

That said, I will be the first to agree that one gets what he pays for. I personally think that the value is there in most, if not all,models of American made muzzleloaders. When one thinks about how much powder, primers, and bullets one is going to spend, a few extra bucks on the rifle doesn't really seem to be obstacle. Even so, people are going to purchase Spanish barrelled rifles. I just happen to think they are entitled to enjoy them and use them safely without having "the daylights scared out of them" with comments that, IMO, border on hoax.

I say use some common sense. Learn to care for, load, discharge, etc. as safe as one can. Usesufficient charge to get the job done, but don't over do it. The less charge you use, the longer your rifle will last, the more you will enjoy shooting in long sessions at the range, the more peace of mind you will have. No one needs to fear sensible use or beware of anyone who recommends sensible use. Beware of the person who leads you to think that you can or should load maximum charges with monster bullets in an American made rifle without any worries whatsoever.

Happy Hunting, Phil

I have to agree aside from the barrel issue; or lack of issue, the actions of some of the spanish imports range from acceptable to terrible. My Pursuit also required a double hand pull of the trigger to get it to go off. I would estimate the pull at around 20 pounds. I did my own trigger job and got it to nearly acceptable and finally traded it almost new with a scope for an NEF used without a scope and am completely happy with the trade. The Pursuit was not an impressive rifle in my opinion. The NEF is!!!

lemonyne said, You ask the problems that people have actually experianced, my own were not with the barrel, the trigger pull was unbelieveable come close to needing two hands to get it to go off

My limited experience - two CVA rifles, about five years of muzzleloading - is that the two CVA rifles I own both have excellent triggers; that is one of their main virtues, INHO.

I bought a new CVA Buckhorn as 2nd rifle, instead of an Omega - which was what I really wanted - because the CVA had a better trigger, better recoil pad, and nicer stock, and just plain felt good... that it cost 80 or so bucks less just sweetened the deal. I've had it to the range, it shoots well. Cleaning is a bit of a pain, some blowback does get on the scope, those are things to complain about. And, I won't stoke it with 130gr of 777 behind a 300gr sabot... but otherwise, it is a very accurate, very competent rifle. If I see a deer at woods ranges & do my part with 100gr powder & sabot, he's dead.

Thanks Pglasgow. Lots of info there. What do youuse for a muzzleloader? You think I should spend the extra and get something a little more proven?