Kathwacckkk

Since I trust the reviews and opinions ofeveryone on this board, more then the so-called experts, I will ask: There is a lot of press about American Pioneer Powder. Velocities match, extremely clean, etc... How does this powder (stick &loose) compare in terms of velocity, loading, recoil, cleaning, etc...to777, Pyrodex or some of the other major brands? I am looking for an extremely clean powder in stickform, but not if theaccuracy can not match my777. Sorry if this has been discussed before, I am a newbie to this sport as well as this forum.
Thanks!

cayugad

American Pioneer Powder has good velocity, and is a clean powder to shoot. I personally have shot a lot of Clean Shot which was APP before the name change and really like the powder. I had excellent accuracy and very little fowling. Also the recoil of APP is not as sharp as that of Triple Se7en. Some posters I have read had moisture problems with the APP. I can not say I ever noticed that it was a moisture absorbing powder but then I never hunted with it in wet conditions. I personally would stay away from APP in stick form. I would get the powder in FFFg grade loose form. APP is a very course powder. The sticks because of the way they are packaged, have been described as missing chunks from the main body of the stick. With chunks missing you can not get consistencyIMO. Besides, loose powder is morecost effective and you can custom make a load better. Also the dreaded crud ring we read so much aboutdoes not seem to be a problem with this powder. Whether you will experience a moisture problem I guess only a try with the powder will tell. APP is a very popular powder around here with the local gun clubs. I note that of the two clubs in the area, that is the powder they sell and recommend.

Triple Se7en in pellet form is expensive when you compare it to loose. There is the issue of the crud ring, but I believe a good swabbing will control that. I shoot three inlines and although I do not shoot pellets in any form have never experienced a crud ring that I could not handle. Also be it noted, I shoot Triple Se7en, Clean Shot, and Pyrodex on occassion. I am personally a Goex shooter for the most part. Other then that, Triple Se7en is a clean burning, excellent power, and well respected powder. People get good accuracy with it. I like it in FFg form but have never had my oppertunity to try the FFFg grade.

If I were you, I'd get a pound of each and make my own evaluation. After all that means you can shoot more..

eldeguello

The BEST substitute powder I've used is GOEX ClearShot in the FFFg form. It gives adequate velocities, is not only very clean, it is NON-CORROSIVE, as I proved by leaving a fired rifle uncleaned for two weeks one August here in the heat and humidity of the Mason-Dixon Line. GOEX ClearShot FFg gives such low vewlocities that it is pretty worthless as a hunting powder.

The next best for me has been Pyrodex, as I can shootall afternoon using it without swabbing, which I CANNOT DO with 777. With 777, I might as well be shooting Swiss BP, since both require swabbing after about three shots (depending on how much you use! The bigger the charge, the more often you must swab!!)

Clean Shot (APP) is OK as long as it has not had time to absorb moisture, which it will do if the lid is not on tight. It still requires swabbing once in a while, but not nearly as much as with BP or 777. It also gives very good velocities if it has not gotten moist!

ClearShot FFFg has given me some very accurate performance!

MLKeith

I think you will find that Goex has discontinued Clear Shot and is now marketing a synthetic Pinnacle which is made by American Pioneer and is another ascorbic acid based powder which is also non-corrosive. I have some Pinnacle but have not shot enough to make good decision. I am still stuck on Black Mag'3 as the best synthetic I have shot to date. I agree that with most of the other synthetics like Clear Shot, Clean Shot, APP and Pinnacle that the fffg version is the one to use as the ffg is too coarse and lacks for performance. Black Mag'3 only comes one granulation and it looks a lot like fffg. Volume for volume against ffg 777 I get higher velocities and less felt recoil out of my Omega using the BM3 under a 300gr. saboted bullet.

eldeguello

Yes, I know! I managed to find a small cache of ClearShot last fall, and now have six pounds of it in FFFg grasnulation stored under correct conditions. I will use it in ONE LOAD only, 140 grains withthe 370-grain Maxi-Ball in my .50 Hawken, and for not other purpose. I expect this little horde to last longer than I will!

Thanks for the info on Black Mag. 3. I'll try it.Have heard that Black Mag. 3 is alsovery good in BPCR's!

I'm sorry that Pinnacle is just another version of Clean Shot/APP!

cayugad

I have read posts from others, warning of the absorption properties of Clean Shot and American Pioneer Powder. They are also suspecting that Pinnacle will fall into this group. That's what I find so confusing. Wisconsin can be a humid place for the most part in the warmer weather, nothing unbearable mind you. Of course in winter, we have lots of rain, sleet, or snow. That's why I am surprised I never had a problem with Clean Shot or Pinnacle sucking up moisture. I had Clean Shot laying around the house in a large plastic ketchup bottle (a poor man's cheap and free powder horn) for almost six years. The powder shot as good from the first to the very last shot. At no time did I take special precautions to keep it moisture free. The same with the two pounds of Pinnacle I shot last winter. It layed around in the containers it came in with a plastic pour spout on the top until it was used up, in the gun room on a wooden shelf. No other precautions were taken with the Pinnacle also. I have yet to shoot American Pioneer Powder, but fully intend to get a couple pounds of it and more Pinnacle and look forward to shooting it. I guess I will see if I have problems with the powder or not.

Paul L Mohr

I started with pyrodex ffg, then switched to clean shot ffg and now I am using 777fffg. Here is what I noticed. Keep in mind I don't have a chrono, but I was shooting the same bullet and same charge with each powder at one point. So I can get a pretty decent idea of velocity and consistancy by looking at the amount of drop and grouping I get. Also felt recoil.

Clean Shot was very easy to clean up and use. It was a bit slower burning and did not get as much velocity at 100 yards. It smokes alot and smells horrid! Do not breathe this stuff, it will almost make you puke. Not so fun in the eyes either. I shot both pellets and loose, didn't have any problems with either and I use musket caps, not 209's. It was pretty accurate as well.

Pryodex was a bit faster and accurate than the clean shot was, but it was nasty to clean up. And I could not shoot very many times at all without scrubbing my barrel. Every rifle is a bit different I think. It also depends on how tight your sabots are. I shot mostly loose with this, but tried some pellets before and they worked ok.

I use 777 now, and use the fffg, but have tried the ffg before as well. For me it is cleaner than either of the other two. It also burns faster and has higher velocities. It is the most accurate in my gun as well. It has a bit more recoil though. The smoke is pretty nasty from this stuff too, but not as bad as the clean shot was for me. I have only used this loose, no pellets.

Also keep in mind the pellets don't have the same velocity as the loose does with 777. With the loose you need to use less powder to get the same charge as pyrodex. 100 grns of loose 777 is faster than pyrodex and even faster yet than clean shot I think. But with the pellets this is not the case. The pellets will equal to the pyrodex, two 50grn pellets of 777 is the same as two 50 grn pellets of pyro, or 100 grns loose. Keep that in mind when looking. The Loose powder is cheaper and more effecient than the pellets. The pellets sure are easy to use though.

And the 777 fffg is even faster yet. I thought I might have problems with it, but it works great behind a 350 grn Precision Rifle bullet. And I only need 90 grns instead of 100. You can tell the difference in recoil for sure. I had some of the pioner pellets left over when I switched. I shot one round of 100 grns of pioneer and the next shot was 90 grns of the 777. Even my buddies next to me could see the difference in recoil. It's much sharper, more like a shotgun than black powder. My point of impact at 100 yards was also higher. So 90 grns of 777 fffg was faster than 100 grns of clean shot. At least from what I could tell. I am simply going by drop at 100 yards.

All three of them shoot pretty accurate out my rifle with the right load. I can get one inch or better groups if I do my part with any of them at 100 yards. Most of my shooting was done with 300 grn XTPs. I switched to the PR bullets last season when I switched to 777. I get about the same results at 100 yards, but the PR bullets and 777 are more accurate at longer ranges like 130 and 150 (my rifle is sighted in at 130 yards).

The best thing to do is get some buddies together and by a few different brands of powder. Then try all of them and see who likes what best. I have a buddy that swears by pyrodex, and the other tried my 777 and liked clean shot better. They own different rifles than I do though.

Good luck,
Paul