What makes a Breechplug a Great BP?
 

It seems more MLer Manufactures today are focused on making the Breechplug better. Im not talking about a (Quick Release) BP as being better, Im talking about what makes a BP just plain better than the rest, and why? Why do some allow minimal fouling and others will blow the powder in your face.:devil: I chose the name breechplug when I joined this Forum because I always thought the BP was one of the most Important parts of the ML. So why is it taking the Manufactures so long to develope a Great One? In your Opinion wich one do you think is the best and why?
(BP)

Not having years of experience with muzzle loaders behind me, i want to make it clear i don't want to come off as any kind of an expert here.

One thing i have noticed in the brief time i have been shooting these rifles, is the Omega seems to be more reliable than the Accura, when shooting BH209. I attribute this to the shape of the barrel end of the breech plug. Both plugs appear to be set up to use pellets, however the Omega breech plug has a larger concavity in the end. To me, it seems this makes for a more reliable BH209 ignition.

So, to answer your question, i think a breech plug with a significant concavity in the end is better than one without. There is very little data available to me, so this opinion is some weak.

As far as blow back goes, the Accura is some better than the Omega, but the Omega will continue igniting the powder after it gets carboned up, and starts 'blowing back', whereas the Accura will hang fire or misfire, if the breech plug carbons. Normally, i let the Omega tell me when it is time to drill out the fire channel, but i don't dare let the Accura tell me, because it will misfire, and cause me loss of food.

Ron, I think Sabotloader mentioned something as you about the style of the BP's in the Knight's with the concave BP Vs the Flat one. But is your experiences with just using BH209? Also how long between shots do you go with your ACCURA befor you clean the BP? I normally go about 20 shots at the range with no problems and I've never had a hangfire with my ACCURA's. I know BH209 does really carbon up the BP so the BH may be the problem there.
Since Sabotloader talked me into using Teflon Tape on my BP, the blowback on my ACCURA's have been cut in half.
(BP)

The variety of possible configurations is staggering.

Start with the face of the plug. What's best - flat, concave, or convex (how about a cone - never have seen one of those)?
Then there's the length of the flash hole channel flame channel - 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" ?
How about the diameter of the flash hole channel - .035, .030, .025 ?
And the diameter of the flame channel between the primer and the flash hole channel - 3/32", 1/8", 3/16" ?

If one selects a flat face, is a larger flash channel better than a smaller one? Would it be the same with a concave face?

Someone please - select the best of each and design the perfect plug for us. :s3:

Breechplug

I think one of the problems is the almighty $... It costs a bunch of money to do the research and development. Then it takes a company with a lot of guts to create something new and then try to sale it to you as an advancement because they are going to increase the price of the merchandise. In this competitive world price is everything. What is worse they can not protect their upgrade even with a patent, so it can copied by someone else that makes a small modification on the original and calls it theirs, but did none of the research and development. Pretty cheap that way.

The other thing I think advancements to the BP have occurred when regular people make a change and see that it works. One of those little discoveries was creating a larger flame channel (5/32nds or slightly larger) that really has a dramatic effect on blow back from the primer.

With the advent of BH and the necessity to use those very hot primers - I think that will call for another ugrade in the BP. A normal BP will carbon and will probably develope gas cutting much quicker than ever before. I guess what I am getting at is the old addage... "necessity is the mother of invention" or something like that... As we demand more more will be developed... shoot look at what cell phones can do today that is really amazing...

If you want to see the obscene extremes one could go to in an effort to design the perfect BP, take a look at what the smokeless guys are doing. There is additional pressure there as the vent itself wears VERY quickly due to increased temps/pressure. It started with a removeable/replaceable ventliner, and has now progressed to improved flame channel designs, carbide inserts, primer carriers to get rid of 209s, etc etc. All of this outside the realm of the companies who made the originals.

Does anyone have a Savage 10ML-11? I have heard they have a good BP, with the replaceable flash hole ventliner you speak of. There suppos-to-be one of the best so far,,,???
(BP)

Mike, have you ever tried to modify a BP? does the larger flame channel allow more flame from the Primer get to the powder, thus causing a better ignition and not allowing as much blowback? Is there more blowback from the Primer or the Powder?
If there was a sealed breech design would that be better, or would it be too hard to clean the inside of the barrel, or get the carbon off the end of the BP inside the barrel.
(BP)

For me a great breechplug has 4 things... reliable ignition, little to no blowback, ease of removal, and ease of cleaning. Having played with several BP's, I can honestly say that T/C has it figured out with their Speed Breech XT.

I can agree with you on that one and Im a CVA shooter. Mabey CVA's (NEW) designed BP will be as good and so what if they have to copy TC. LOL!
(BP)

Breechplug

OK - first off remember I am not a good writer and what makesense in my head may not make sense verbally at all to anyone but me.

Yes, I have modified several plugs now. Lemoyne has done the same thing to some other plugs also.

I have modified Omega/Encore plugs - Knight DISC plugs and about to modify a Knight Vision plug.

Let's make sure you and I are talking about the same thing... The 'flash channel' is the area directly below the primer that lead to the smal 'flash hole' in the nose of the breech plug.

Spitpatch is the person that started me on my adventure. He mentioned one day about how clean the new Vision plug was and indicated that Knight had opened the 'flash channel' from 1/8" to 5/32nds. Then I satarted thinking about the Triumph breech plug - why is it so darn clean... Answer - both of those plugs now have the ability to hold more blow back volumn in the flash channel - the Triumph because it is much longer and the new Vison plug because it will hold more volume - the abilty of the 'flash channel' to hole more volumn allows the bullet to exit the barrel before the blow back can be pushed out around the primer... the act of the bullet and pressure leaving the bore then actually sucks the flas channel clear of gases. Somebody else could explain this a lot better.

So I have opened the flash channel larger + I have installed a Lehigh vent liner. The vent liner in itself helps deflect blow back away from the 'flash hole' just by design.

The size of the 'flash hole' is a prime factor in ingnition of the powder but it also can and will allow more blow back back through the primer if it is to large. I think and believe a 'flash hole' diameter of .032 is about prime. Some people have opened this to .036 but that is to large for me. Lehigh Dave did spent a lot of time developing the correct size 'flash hole' and settled on the .032.

Here is a picture collection of what I am doing. Lemoyne is doing about the same thing...



Here is completed Knight DISC plug...



And this is a picture looking through a modified Omega plug... The channel has been opened to 5/32nds




There certainly could be a sealed breech - but think about a sidehammer - how many times have you really wanted to clean the BP.... + Breech Plugs do wear out especially inline plugs that are shot very hot and very hardso they need to be replaced....

Any of this makes any sense.... to anybody

Yes and Thank's Mike, I was wondering where you went...LOL!
(BP)

I've been following some of the posts on various sites about modifications. As previously stated, the smokeless guys are doing a lot of experimenting(as are bp shooters). It seems to me that a larger flame channel and a vent liner are about all that would be needed to prolong the BP life indeffinately. Blowback seems to be virtually non-existant on a lot of the newer models(breech area). It seems that convenience is King in todays market.

Breechplug

i am a dang slow typer - dang slow an i kant spell woth a darn

I must be really slow typing, SL put the whole format out there before I could describe what I was trying to say. Thanks Mike.

I have a Savage 10ML-11, BP has the replaceable vent liner. Needs to be replaced about every 100 shots. No blow back what so ever. Just picked up some after market Vent liners that are suppose to be good for 200-300 shots.

Hi Ron and all,

The design of Breech Plugs,

IMHO, BH209 is not the problem or reason for carbon in your Breech Plug, does your barrel build up with carbon?? Mine doesn't, IMHO the 209 primer is the problem!! The carbon is from the primer not the powder.

What was the 209 designed to do? The Standard Non 777 Modifed 209 primer was not and is not Designed to light powder in Muzzle Loaders, Rifles or ML Shotguns! It was designed to light Powder in a shot shell. In a Modern Shotgun all the garbage from the primer was blown out the barrel, not a big problem. How many of you know that there used to be more than 3 different physical sizes in Shot gun primers, How many of you still have Rem. 157 and 197 primers in your collections. Also, how many of you know that there is no standard for the length of a 209 primer. Hard to build a Breech plug that will perfectly fit all 209 primers when the are all different lengths from the different co. Not to mention variances in the same makes. Remember the shot shell is very forgiving!

The Breech plug you have in your guns was originally designed to light Black powder or one of the later substitutes, (The origonal substitute isn't supposed to be talked about.) All the designes will work well with straight old Black powder and caps. Now IMHO some %*&^%)( fool comes out using 209s in a Black powder gun and all kinds of variables come into play.

It is the gun owners choice as to what powder they use.

IMHO A good breech plug design is one that has all the attributes of the Savage BP. and Sabotloader has also discovered this and has nice photos posted.

1, replaceable vent liner, for consistency!

2, 5/32 dia. Flame path to vent.

3, Tightly fitted - seated, primer in it's chamber.

Now even this design can be changed for specific purposes, My Knight T-bolt was designed for Musket caps use. I choose to convert to 209s so I could use BH209. I am currently using the same BP that comes standard in the Vision. I have no use for plastic jackets. This plug is not stock anymore. It has a savage style vent liner installed and that is ressesed .6" from the tip of the plug, this leaves a .375 x .6 chamber in the nose of the plug. The Flame pathe is just .75" . IMHO this is a great setup for BH209. This plug setup is designed to hold and fire a Win. 209. The Only other primer that the bolt will close on is the Rem 209 4. all others are to long. The Rem 209-4 is .014 (Average) shorter than the Win 209. This is with all my current inventory, yours may vary, we are talking 209s, they aren't made to a very tight standard Period! Remember Shot shell technology and tolerances.
The 5/32 diameter just happens to be one of the sizes needed or available to thread for 10-32 threads, the savage vent liner is a 10-32 threaded screw. The carbon from the primers builds very hard. to clean the BPs simply run a 5/32 drill down threw it to your vent, if it isn't removable.

What is the purpose of having a vent in your 209 breech plugs even the fixed vents from the factory?

Why isn't the powder allowed to set right on the face of the primer?

I have shot my t-bolt with light loads and with out a vent installed, just using the 209s with an open 5/32 hole in the BP. The Rem 209-4 will fire BH209 just fine in this setup. In a shotshell the powder sets right on the face of the primer. Do you know why? Sabot loader explanes it very well it limits the amount of presure that is forced back to the 209, they are only designed to stand the pressure of Shot shells something much less than the PSI. of a Heavy sub load.

Yes, There are many different dimensions/ types of Breech plugs.

Most were designed to light Black powder, you/we choose to use something else.

I hope some of this makes sense, Sabotloaders photos should help.

Great questions Ken!
Be interesting to hear some opinions - I'm not experianced enough to have one.

I know I keep harping on the apex but it's really worth checking out they're bp. With w209 primers blowback isn't minimal, it's completely non-existant

"What is the purpose of having a vent in your 209 breech plugs even the fixed vents from the factory?

Why isn't the powder allowed to set right on the face of the primer?"


IMHO, The vent Hole / vent liner limits the amount of gas pressure that is forced back to the 209. In the Micro/milli seconds that the load fires and pushes the projectile up the bore, pressure is built in the barrel side of the vent and is above the operational design criteria if a 209 primer.

The vent is an orifice that restricts the passage of gasses going back to the primer side of the orifice. Because the High pressure only lasts Milli seconds, the pressure passing threw this orifice into the flash hole/channel can't rise above the limits that the 209 can contain.

All shot shell primers, hence 209s, are only designed to stand the pressure of "Modern Shot Shells", something much less than the PSI. of a Heavy sub load.

Thank's to ALL who have helped out on this Post. I learned a few things. Anyother thoughts are welcome. It looks like if CVA's New ACCURA has a greatly Improved BP I'll have to get one.....Im hoping though I can just replace the one it came with, with the new style...wishful thinking! My ACCURA's, especially the one I used most for Hunting this year is a real shooter, I'd hate to put er down for a new one just for the new BP.
(BP)

Breechplug

I doubt very much that the breech plugs are going to interchange. The new one I am sure will be much longer, more like the length of the Triumph Speed Breech. That extra length makes a ton of difference in the blow back through the breech plug. It actually may look more like the Speed Breech for the Pro Hunter... Actually I bet you could look at one for the Apex on line and you probably would have it.

If the expected price of the new Accura is close to or over $400 why would you not go with the Apex - Underclocked has moved his Accura's in favor of the Apex...

Mike, I have rifles and dont use them anymore, the same as Shotguns. I gave them up years ago for the Bow and MLer. I prefer the 1 shot and consider myself a Traditionalist.
As for the APEX it sure is nice but Im not gonna spend the extra money on a ML that interchanges barrels if Im not gonna use it for that. So the new ACCURA will be just what I will probably get.
Your right about the BP and it wont interchange with my ACCURA's, I should have seen that on my own. Also I know some dont like the looks of the ACCURA, but I do, it has grown on me.
And I love the way it shoots, plus the little blowback I get now is'nt that bad so a new improved BP is all Im looking for in the newer ACCURA.
When I bought my last 3 ACCURA's I thought they would be my last in awhile, that's why I got 3 as I liked em so much I figured I'd be set for a long time.....not the case as all of us know.LOL!
(BP)

I know Im gonna get beat up on this one........as mentioned above I prefer to use just a ML and only a ML for Hunting, I just plain out Love Em! besides a Bow of course for Bow Season. There gonna probably legalize Rifle Hunting in our County for next Season, they allmost did this year. If they do I still wont use one, I think (in My Opinion) that Rifles as unfair as you can just shoot way too far at game that never know your even there. There's just no fun in that to me, I watch Hunting shows where guy's shoot at Big Bucks at say 300-400yds+, where's the glory in that, they never had a chance.
I gave up the Shotgun for the ML Im sure not gonna give up the ML for a Rifle. Some may say the ML is a Rifle....sure it get's out there but it will never be a Rifle. I fell in ove with a ML the first time I shot my first Deer with one over 25 years ago and I never looked back, for me a ML is all I'll ever need and 1 shot is all I'll evr need. If I cant get em with a ML than I should quit Hunting.
Next Gun Season all my Friends will probably be Hunting with there Rifles and I'll be right there with them with my trusty ML, taking some crap from them, but when the smoke clears I'll still get what Im after, a Deer and Satisfaction.:party0005:
(BP)

Breech,

You sure have done a complete 180 on wanting a new Accura from a previous post, see below. You have the Accura itch brother.

It will be something to check out but a quick release BP in my opinion is nothing to get all excited over, so what if it comes out quicker, it's not like you have to remove the BP for every shot. And recoil burners another so what, the recoil from My ACCURA is'nt even noticeable. It's just some extra add on's to up the price another $200.
If CVA wanted to improve the ACCURA a Stainless Steel Receiver insted of the Aluminum one would be a improvement, or say a Laminated Wood Stock would even be nice. But it's gonna take more than a quick release BP and some Rubber to get me to buy one, Im happy with the 3 I have now.

Breechplug

The only reason I think the Accura is U-glee is because of the butt stock... I do not like the Encore series for the same reason... Can not believe that CVA would copy that design... but in one of FG's posts, I think he mentioned that the new version was going to have the more conventional stock like the Apex - I like the looks of the Apex - maybe the stock might interchange on an Accura...

And I agee a SS reciever sure would be nice when it comes to durability and time...

BP - I share your feeling ML's only even for elk hunting for me... The only centerfires I shoot anymore is my Bull Barrel 222 Sako - the ground squirrels and yotes hate it...

im not sure if they changed the stock any. I just know that they installed the recoil burners or whatever you want to call it. Apex is a nice rifle, i had the ffl holder send my info off today so as soon as the barrels come in, my apex will be shipped.

BreechPlug: try to have and open mind, what twists your crank might not twist some one else, but that is OK.

Your Accura's are most certainly single shot Rifles!!! How can you not say they are rifles, are the barrels smooth bored? They might not be cnterfire rifles but they most certainly are rifles.

I personaly would not hesitate to shot a deer at 300 with my 50 cal Muzzle Loader that I built on a Rolling Block frame. I routinely shot to 335Yards at the farm for fun.

But this has nothing to do with The Breech Plug.

O.K., you got me on this one.....yes I probably....I will buy one!LOL, sorry we all get the itch.........
(BP)

It appears you have become a little worried about the breech plug in your Accura. Here is some news that may reduce some of your concern.

This morning when i woke up it was -9* here. At dawn it was -12* here. When i left to go hunting it was -8* here. Since i wasn't in a big hurry to get out of the truck, i took a little detour to a piece of ground where i shoot at paper, that is more or less on the way to where i wanted to hunt.

My Accura spent the night in the truck, and was last fired and loaded 3 days ago. I set up the target and moved the truck to the same approximate spot i fired a shot from 3 days ago, when it wasn't so cold, which was about 99 yard from the target. Today it was -14* up there. When i pulled the trigger on the Accura, it fired with Authority, even though it was dirty and cold. The paper is here:



One bullet hole is from this morning, and the other is from 3 days ago in the morning before i went hunting. The load was 105g BH209, 300g 44 caliber xtp, Harvester smooth sabot, and a Winchester W209 shot shell primer.

The breech plug of the Accura works you see.

Your right, the ML is a Rifle, and it will get out there, but it's still a ML, it will never have the long range velocities as a rifle and it will never have a clip with more than one shot, and have you ever had to worry if your Rifle was going to go off in the Pouring Rain or Sub Zero Temps? And I know this has nothing to do with the BP, I was just quoteing Sabotloader as to why I did'nt want to buy a APEX with the better BP as the ACCURA's.
And I have nothing against anyone who uses a Rifle, I just prefer the 1 shot, and yes you get 1 shot with a Rifle but you also get another if needed to back you up fast, you dont get that with a ML.
Plus if I Rifle Hunted I would'nt be on this Forum, with them you just load and shoot, where's the fun in that or how much more can you learn. I like MLing because you can never learn everything or know too much.
(BP)

I was never worried about the BP's in My ACCURA's, as I stated somwhere above the Blowback was'nt all that much to worry about. And like you somewhere else I mentioned in another Topic that I have had My ACCURA in the Warm House, then to the COLD TRUCK, to the warmed up truck, back into the Single Didgets Cold, back to the cold Truck and them warmed up truck to the warm house again and this all over again for up to days at a time. And when I pulled the trigger it went off. I have never had a problem with my ACCURA's.
I was just thinking of a newer ACCURA just for a Improved BP design, do I really need this, probably not, am I totally happy now with my ACCURA's, yes. But the bug has hit and I will get a newer ACCURA just to say I got one.
Thank's and Enjoy your ACCURA!
(BP)

This morning i ordered some vent liner from Lehigh. I plan to use them to improve the Accura breech plug. When i finish, i plan for the modified Accura breech plug to look more like the Omega breech plug.

I have studied up on this a bit, and have one question. You have a 5/32" fire channel in the modified breech plug. You mention how you drilled all the way through the breech plugs to establish the hole for the 10-32 tap. It seems to me that the 5/32" hole is a bit smallish for the tap. I was wondering if it would be best for me to use a #21 drill, instead of the 5/32" drill, or did you find it was just fine to tap the 5/32" hole? If not, i would end up with a slightly larger than 5/32" fire channel, and am wondering if that would be a bad thing.

ronlaughlin

It is.. what I wanted to suggest is that he 5/32nds is what I think might be the optimal minimum size..

#21 is the bit to use if you are doing it at home...

It is not a bad thing - but there is a size that may be to large and compromise the strength of your BP... I have never seen a reall Accura plug so I do not knowwhat that size might be.


I will post these instructions as written by (Lemoyne) Lee. These were written using a dril press to accomplish the work. I am/was using a machine shop lathe to accomplish the work. I have now also decided to complete them on a drill press - I have done enough on the lathe to feel confident in doing on a drill press now.

Hope this helps....

You dang betcha it helps. Thank you for the informational information! I can't think of anything else i would need to know to start this project. Thanks again.

Breechplug,

I started hunting with a muzzleloader in 1978, it was a .45 H&A Underhammer, I still have the action and it is now a .58. I rebarreled it myself. in 98

No I have never had to worry about my Guns going Bang even in the pouring rain, I used all kinds of nipple protectors. Rubber gloves, finger cots. I have hunted in the pouring rain, did so this year with the Rolling Block. Had electrical tape on the muzzle when I shot the following deer.

I have hunted with my own cast Balls and Boolitze in ML since 78 also. I now cast a very efficient 333 gr LFN that shoots well in the Harvester Black short sabot. ( I buy Sabots by the case from graf and sons, I have a case and a half of them in the basement closet right now, Doesn't everybody! )

I haven't carried any of my large selection of Center fires or scope sighted customized pump 12 gauges hunting since 98, took a Antelope in WY with my 58 Underhammer at over 150 yards with a RB. I have a 500 grain Boolit mold comming for my BMGs so I may do some long range hunting with one of them at the farm this coming year. Also looking at a 840 gr mold in .514 also. We do have a 1000 yard range at the farm and shooting is a recreation for us. It is 1000 yards from the Power pole left side of photo to the center of the tree line in the distant field. John Eggleston, ( editor of "Very High Power" the Quarterly rag of the 50BMG shooters ass.) even Laser Ranged it when we were talking about having a 1000 yard practice match at the farm. we have gongs in the tree line, targets from 500 to 1000.


There is a gong in the tree line in this photo, it is 183 yards from the window. We have a target setup just before the snow along the right side of the tree line that is at 225 yards. the far bank of the frozen pond is 335 Yards.


This is a photo of my 200 yard range behind my house, I have 2 benches here this is my close bench the other is 50 yards farther back, this is 103 yards, there is a down tree behind the freezer full of sand that is 150 yards from this bench. The tree is bloking the veiw, the second freezer is just above the brown one showing


I drifted to inlines in 2003, and to Smokeless in 2008.

I built my own Smokeless gun including the breech plug last winter (2008) and Killed three deer with it this last season (2009) including this 8 Pt in the wet rainy snow. It was the last weekend of regular season do you remember the rain.






This is a Nice Doe I took, it was snowing hard when I harvested it, the White specs are snow flakes in the air.


These are less than perfect Photos from my Phone.

Very Nice and I applaud you, keep up the excellant work!:cool2:
(BP)

This may be a dumb question, but has anyone drilled out the flame channel with a drill motor? I'm asking because I don't have a drill press. What do you think, BAD idea to even attempt it?

tjj

It certainly could be done... but you could get mis-aligned also...

But you have a good thought also - you could just open the flash channel and not even mess with installing a ventliner until your flash hole gets worn enough to warrant it...

Breechplug hope you see this... that might be the easy answer for you right now also....

The T/C speed breech is the best plug i ever used.