tell me the difference.......
 

o.k. what is the difference in riding an atv to hunt or riding horse? u put your lazy a$$ on something and let it do the work! and buy the way i do not own a atv or a horse! do i use an atv, yes if i get the chance! would i hunt off of it hell no!

shato- u and i are not that differant in our hunts, u hunt hard and don't mind working for your animal, so do i! i will just not pay a guide. that is just me, i can't see how i guide earns his take for a week of hunting?

oh and one more thing please don't hold back guy's!;)

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

There is a BIG difference in riding a horse vs and ATV!!

One - horses are animals that were naturally here before we were. You can take them where it is not legal to take an ATV. I know a lot of horsemen, and they are some of the hardest hunting people I know. They use them to get back in even farther than the hardest hiker could even imagine to go. Horses do not make nearly the noise, nor do they pollute nearly as much as ATV's do. And you are not just riding around on your horse looking for game, and magically sneak up on it without being spotted. You get to an area, often times leaving the horse at camp and walking around camp during the hunt, and then using the horse to carry 300lbs of elk meat out instead of trying to get it all on your back, or worse yet, only being able to take a few cuts at a time, and by the time you get to the kill site for the rest of the animal, its all gone, eaten by either a bear or cougar. Horses can make or break a hunt, especially if you hunt solo many (10, maybe 15? more?) miles back into wilderness, and like to take more than what a minimalist would call comfortable:). You can ride the horse in the 10 miles or whatever with a comfortable amount of gear, more than you could easily do on your back in one trip, then set camp, leave the horse in camp during the day, hunt, get your animal, bone it out, and walk out with camp and animal on the horse in one trip, rather than making two or more trips to do it on your back.

An ATV??? It gets you from point A to point B on a road a little quicker than walking;)

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

Isn't it true that the "Spaniards" brought horses to America???????? If i'm right about that, horses were NOT here before humans were.

Drilling Man

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

dm, that was what i was gonna say

brad

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

The breeds that we have today are not native to North America, but horses were here many years before man, and then died off, and then were brought back here from Europe. I didn't mean it to be a "they were here before us" type statement, but rather they are more natural to the landscape than ATV's will ever be, no matter how much we camoflauge them;).

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

I have been hurt by ATV's and horses. I prefer to get my elk out on a pair of Danners.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

That is a good point there Elkcrazy8!!! I have fallen off a horse before, it wasn't a fun experience, but the horse was well trail broken, and as soon as she felt the saddle slip, she stopped in her tracks until I was completely free. I have yet to be hurt by one, but that will not keep me from getting on them:D

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

Ever heard of the phrase "leave only foot prints behind"?

Horses are natural animals.

Ever see what a group of irresponsible ATVers can do to a piece of unspoiled land. Horses do not tear up the land no where nearly as badly as ATV's.

Horses do not pollute the land with exhaust fumes, spilt gasoline, and noise.

A horse has a mind and a will of its own where as an ATV you are in complete control if you want to be. So it certainly aint all cookies and cream.

Horses don't run out of gas and leave you stranded. In fact they can save your life sometimes. An ATV can get you stuck where as a horse can get you out of a bad situation.

Horses have a will to live where as an ATV does not. This could save your but hunting miles from yout truck.

Horses can usually find their way out and many times can find their way back to a truck where as an ATV can not.

Horses do not spook the game animals into the next county.

Hunting with or off of a horse aint all about getting your "lazy a$$ on something and letting it do the work". With horses comes more work than you could immagine. You should try it sometime and let us know what your opinion about hunting with them is.

BTW, it's not just ATV's. In most states that have wilderness, not just national forrest, no kind of machinery is allowed inside the wilderness boundaries. This would include things like chain saws and bicycles as well as motorcycles and ATV's.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

A horse can take you back to camp in the dark when you are lost or asleep. I prefer mules they are calmer than horses and surer footed.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

The original ATV in my opinion. They do something else an ATV doesn't do that is hold their value or actually increase in value

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

"i can't see how i guide earns his take for a week of hunting?"

Now there's a crazy statement!!!! I've never been guided myself, but can see the true benefits in the use of one, that's for sure!! I'm not just talking about private lands, ranches or LE Units either. Guys or gals who aren't experienced in elk hunting, especially bowhunting elk can use all the coaching and help they can get.

Elk are a tough animal to harvest, and there's many ways to look at it. The animal itself, the country it lives in, the sounds it makes, and so on. If you don't have a decent handle on all these you're going to be going home with tag-soup in most years of hunting them. Sure it's great just to be out there, but most have a purpose once there.

I've taken many people elk hunting, most have taken their first elk which I was privledged to call in for them. I can tell you for a fact in most cases these friends and family didn't have a clue on what to expect for such a hunt, even though they had been many times in the past with others or on their own.

Once they go out with someone who can truly help & educate them, it can make all the difference in the world to their enjoyment & successes!!

Example----Maybe you're a rifle hunter and a succesful one at that. but you'd like to give bowhunting elk a shot. --- I have a friend who was in this position, he'd taken 16 elk in a rowwith a rifle, all on public land and all bulls. He asked me to take him elk hunting and teach him a couple things about bowhunting them to better his odds as he'd been out a couple of times with no luck and was getting frustrated. I sayed sure.

After just one morning of elk hunting we were walking back to the truck, and he sayed to me that that was truly a learning experience what we had went through that morning, it was so different than rifle hunting that he felt like he knew nothing at all about elk like he thought he did.

So I can see guys interested in using guides, especially if you don't have 10years lying around going through all the trials & errors that are neccessary before you really start figuring out what makes them tick in Sept.

So for you guys using guides in this capacity, I say it's a very smart move!!!!--ElkNut1

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

elknut1, i agree with what your saying, but how do some guides justify what they charge for some hunts.

i have been checking into brown bear hunts in alaska for a couple years now (i know its a pipe dream, but its my pipe dream), and i cannot see where it is justified to charge me $15,000 for a week of hunting. thats a lot of cash for a back up gun, knowledgable local and a cook. a lot of sheep hunts, as well as polar bear are that way too. i realize the danger in the big bears, but $15000? things like that really keep the average guy from realizing a lot of his dreams, and although im sure id have a blast on these hunts, i am not sure i would feel i got a $15000 effort from my guide

just my thoughts

brad

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

Manboy, the statement about using a guide is very interesting, espescially after reading the post on your bear hunt. I am not saying that people should use guides all the time. But Elknut brings up some great points. I would consider myself a very experienced hunter, and I am going with someone this fall in another state. Granted it is not a guide in the sense that I am paying him, but he is providing all the same so called services. A great way to keep the costs down on an out of state hunt, and maximize your chances of success, would be to swap hunts with other people. You can get a good feel for people on here after a while and then plan a hunt with them. Guiding is ALOT of work. I have never been paid for my services of taking elk hunters out, but have taken several out of staters hunting. There is much preparation to do. I have spent weeks scouting and packing in supplies to make sure that their hunt was enjoyable. Most guides are not the outfitter. They are paid meager salaries and usually room and board. The good guides who work their butts of for the clients will make their most money from the tips of hunters. Guides are not in their line of work because of the money, I can guarantee you that, they are in it because of their love for the outdoors. I looked into guiding and was all lined out for school. I was not able to do it because I would not have made enough to support the family. Just because a guide is hired doesn't mean that the animal is a guarentee either. The client still needs to possess the skills to get the job done. Fortunatly with the 6 guys that I have taken hunting over the past 4 years. Only one guy took a tag home, and that was because he chose to let down on a smaller bull at 5 yards and wait for a bigger. I am doing a swap this year and can't wait. Because of a successful elk hunt a couple of years ago, I have an open invitation to hunt Alaska as soon as I can get the money saved. The only cost will be transprtation to Alaska, money for the float plane, and tags.

As far as horses and ATV's. My opinion still stands. I don't have to feed my boots or change their oil.

huntnmuleys, 15,000 is alot of cash. You have to look at another side of the hunt. Brown bears are not as common as deer and elk. There would be alot more people chasing their dreams as you are if the price was cheaper. How many bears would be left if everyone could get one at 1,000 a pop. The outfitters have alot of extra costs that they need to cover also. The underlying prices are guides lisc., insurance, transportation, area permits, supplies, payroll, equipment upkeep etc. etc. Not only that they have to turn a profit to stay in business. Lets say this outfit takes out 10 hunters. That is 150,000 dollars. After paying all the fees and costs that are incured, they still have to make a living in the end. So I don't think that they may be too far out of line considering the dangers of hunting brownies and all the underlying costs that they have to pay.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

In my experience, horses do not spook game the way an ATV does.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

so elkcrazy= u are saying that it is o.k. that a brownie outfitter makes a living on 10 hunters a year? and u are o.k. with that? i sure will not cough up 1/2 of my 50+ hours work week of 50 weeks a year for that! i would work 1250 hours to pay for a 7-10 day hunt? i don't see how that is in anyway o.k. with me!

p.s. and i don't the wife or my 3 kids would go for that!;)

and i guess i did not make myself clear on the atv/horse thing! i do know that a horse is more work than an atv, but if u ride a horse to the top of a hill or a atv, u are still not using your own power to hunt! there is alot of poeple who say they are a great hunter on this sight. and they say big stories, and then mention i rode HORSE BACK for 8 miles to the base camp! thats fine but u are no better than i, who rode a atv 3 miles to camp!;)

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

Are you just trying to start trouble, or am I actually believing that you are speaking your mind as you see it??

Ok, so that extra 5 miles the guy on the horse rode PAST you on your ATV in the WILDERNESS area, where you couldn't take your ATV means that he is more lazy than you???? If I calculate correctly, he just passed probably 95% or more of the hunters, including you, to get to where he will probably see more game, and where a lot of the game pushed by people on ATV's will be pushed!!! That 8 mile ride on horseback to BASE CAMP gives him up to 5 miles or more in every direction to WALK and HUNT everyday without seeing another single person!! I challenge you to go after elk this fall. Get a general tag there in Wyoming. Backpack in 8 miles, no ATV, no HORSE, set up camp for 5 days, hunting in all directions during your stay, kill a large bull, and then PACK it out on your BACK BY YOURSELF!!! You would have to make AT LEAST 4 round trips, including the trip in, probably somewhere around 6 trips. So you are talking walking 6 trips of 16 miles each, that comes to 96 miles of walking, 32 of that being with a full load of elk meat on your back (4 trips), at about 80 lbs each, because remember, you have to bring it all out, the head, antlers, and ALL of the meat!!! I can almost guarentee by the time you get that far back into the wilderness, you won't be able to pack out every piece of meat before it starts to go bad!!! The guy on the horse can hunt all those 5 days, get an elk, put it all on his horse, and walk out in one trip!!! 16 miles total. I am sorry, but I call that a smarter hunter!!!

Elkcrazy8 - I too hunt from my feet, but only hike a couple of miles each day, from a camp where I can drive to, and usually have help to get an animal out.

Cost of Piper Super Cub - $80,000 used the latest I am seeing.
Cost of guide license, insurance, CPR certs, etc - $5000 or more depending on the location (this is just an estimate, not sure of exact cost)
Cost of GOOD gear EVERY year to keep a good camp, and keep your clients - $10,000 - or MORE!!!
Cost of food, and other expendibles, for 2 guides, 1 hunter, and assistant, for 1 week - $1000
Cost of fuel - 300 mile round trip in the Piper - $400 ++ depending on exactly how much weight for each trip, etc.

This is just the cost of the HUNT itself. Nevermind the expertise a non-resident hunter is getting from a guide who has been in an area for so many years, hunting these dangerous bears. Nevermind the wages you are paying for each guide, so he can go home and pay his mortgage, and buy food for his family. Never mind all of the other little logistical costs that are needed for setting up a brown bear hunt. All of a sudden, $12,000 a hunt for 10 hunters, or $120,000 doesn't seem like a whole lot of money to be split between 4 people, all the gear, maintnence, and expendable items!!

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

charlie brown i see what your saying on the brown bear breakdown, but the underlying problem here is the typical guy (me) cant afford this type of hunt.....possibly ever! i realize there are a lot of costs involved, but most of these guys take 10-15 hunters twice a year, spring and fall. now your looking at upwards of a quarter of a million dollars for the four people to split.....plus this only takes up 2-4 months of their year. sounds like there making a lot of money to me. plus im a bit skeptical of your $10,000 total for gear every year...i doubt they go through that much every year.

im just playing devil's advocate here, but this type of thing is pricing a lot of people out. i just found an outfitter that is running an 'affordable" brown bear hunt next year, at $4995. for this price you get 2 on 1 guide service. you bring your own food and do your own cooking...i think you bring your tent and things too. i am seriously looking at doing this. i may be able to come up with it in a year or two.

and it isnt just bear hunts....sheep have those costs too. personally though, i think a sheep hunt would be 1000 times harder for a guide than a bear hunt. if anything i can see them being more expensive. but $15000????

just tough to swallow when ya see people go on these types of trips every year, and you realize that is half your sallary! too rich for my blood.

now if i can just win that lottery

brad

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

As long as people will pay those prices then they will continue to be the same or go up even more. In today's economy there are a lot of hunters to whom price is no object whatsoever. There is a big gap today between the haves and have nots. I was a guide for about ten years and I sure never got rich at it. Costs have gone through the roof and like it or not I don't see things changing any time soon. I don't use ATV's at all and seldom use horses but I would if I was set up better to do so. Horses have been part of hunting forever. Now if someone would rather walk then beat his chest and claim he is a better or more ethical hunter let him kid himself and do so. Set your own standards and knock yourself out living up to them. Just leave the other guy alone and let him do the same.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

"u put your lazy a$$ on something and let it do the work!"

Ok, I won't hold back: So what is your point??? That anyone that uses a horse, ATV, or a guide is a lazy a$$? Wow! You are such a macho guy! Please give us more of your profound wisdom!

I have a question. Do you ever have anything positive to add to any website that you visit? I have yet to see it.

Guys it is time to cut this guy loose. Every time we respond to him and let him stir up more sh.... it is just more "kicks" for him. Have never understood people like that.

Last question manboy. When will you be graduating from junior high? Grow up.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

Back to the original question...

I personally hate the sound and rapid movement of an atv, whether its on the same trail as me or two ridges over. Sort of ruins my whole "non-motorized" experience.

Never worried about hunters on foot (or horse feet). They blend in well with the natural setting that is a big reason I go into the woods!

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

i myself have no experience on horses. none whatsoever. however, i may be going on an elk hunt in the candian wilderness this fall, and it will be on horseback. should find out next week if im going. always wanted to try the whole horseback thing......

i have an atv, and i use it in elk camp. i dont hunt off of it, i just drive it to the various hunting spots in the area, its better mileage than my pickup. i only drive it on established roads though. i enjoy elk hunting as high in the wilderness as i can get, while coming out to a camp on the road that borders the wilderness. i have thought about making a spike camp, probably will this year, but i do camp on a road.

have to, the stream right where i camp is the best brookie stream i have ever found, and i like eating brookies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

brad

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

i do elk hunt every year, and from my other replies u would see i have havested a 339 5/8 6x6 the last year i held a bull tag! and if i get a bull tag this year well u will see a bull shot! and as far as packing all that weight out, i for one will not pack bones out that i will not use anyway, so cut that wt. down by 57%. oh ya, 57% is correct if u know how to cut meat and u are good at it!

and i hunt elk with huntnmuleys and we also go into wlderness, we just use our on feet! not sit our a$$ on a horse to go into the wilderness! and those of u who think a horse does not tear up the ground, then i say u just don't look where u are going! those horse trails are horrible, the rocks get loose, the tree roots start showing, and soon the forest service puts stakes in the ground to hold the trail togather! next time u are on a horse look over the trail, instead of looking for the easy game to shoot off the horse!

and txhunter= a lot of people don't care for my wisdom, and they don't like that i tell them how it is, get use to it THERE IS NO SUGAR COATING HERE! and i am 30 and have 3 kids, so junior high was a long time ago!

and something positive? listen and u may learn something! or are u to old to learn?

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

What original question? All I see is slander to stir the pot for kicks

Manboy: Never too old to learn something. The thing you don't seem to understand is that you may indeed have something to teach. However, you have lost me as a listener. You are just not worth it. Bye Bye.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

If those are not two hypocritical statements, I don't know what is!!!

And also, I know of very few people that actually shoot an animal from a horse!! You are just too high profile to not get busted before you can. I have stated several times, most people ride the horse to a base camp, or a trailhead, and then hunt from FOOT!!! Get an animal down, and then get the horse to the kill site!!

Also - lets not get going on the weight of meat you can get off an elk. You should easily be able to get close to 200 lbs off a mature bull. If you are BY YOURSELF (as I have stated before), that equals about 4 trips with an 80lb pack when you figure in the weight of the meat, plus the camp gear, plus the rack and hide!! I would love to see you pack that all out in one trip, and still have every piece of meat BY YOURSELF!! It WILL NOT HAPPEN!! Add to that the fact that early season hunting (about the only time you would be able to walk back in that far), and the heat will spoil meat in a heartbeat!! You simply would not be able to get in quick enough UNLESS you had someone with you, then it MIGHT be doable, but would be awful tough for even the most athletic and physically fit person to do!!!

You asked what we felt the differences between horses and ATV's were, then started bashing people who use horses to hunt, then admit you ride an ATV 3 miles to camp. then bash people some more because the sit on their A$$es to get to camp!!!

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

huntnmuleys, nothing like some brook trout cooked over the fire eh? Even tough I understand the costs of of a guide. I too can't afford those costs. I have started to get to know people in various parts parts of the country. One being in Alaska. If you have places to elk hunt and are successful, you have a comodity that others want. I took a guy from Alaska hunting and he killed a nice 6 pt. bull. I now have a hunt ready in AK whenever I am ready. The costs of these hunts can be relatively affordable if you can plan it right. I am doing a swap this year. I am taking someone elk hunting and in return I will get a chance to hunt the corn belt white-tails. The costs incurred are only tags and transportation. With bills and child support this is the only way I can afford to hunt other states on an ongoing basis.

I understand the fact that it takes $ to hunt all over the US. That is the primary reason that I moved from upstate New York to the west coast a long time ago. I wanted to hunt elk every day I could. I have had the fortunate experience of meeting great people along my journey's, and have been able to hunt all over the US by trading hunts. Does this make me lazy, heck no. Here in my own home state I pack supplies into the mountains on foot starting in July. I have a whole camp cached in a hole 5 miles from the trailhead. I have been baiting bears since april 15th and have made 15 2 hour trips to keep the baits active so far. Not to mention the walk and carrying of bait to the bait sites. I have put out close to 1,000 pounds of bait since the start of it all. All of this has been on foot.( I wish at times I had an ATV). I shoot about 5 nights a week on top of this and travel to archery tournaments all over the west coast. If I am not working, I am hunting, scouting or shooting. In the last 5 years I have packed out 18 bulls on foot. Not to mention how many deer and antelope were carried out of a scorching desert. It is too bad that is all wiped out by having someone take me hunting once in a while manboy. I give all this effort away to those who don't have a chance to do it or can't afford it. There is a price to pay for all this though in which I have paid already. I lost my family, my home and everything I own to pursue my passions. Will, I hire a guide when I can afford it again, hell yes, and I will not think of myself as any less of a hunter. I have paid my dues and then some. You got on here spouting off like you are above all. I have never pulled any punches on here but here it goes. Before you start making any comments degrading those who claim that they know what they are doing, you should know a little more about them before you do. For the sake of the companies and magazines that I represent I will not mention any names. However, I do know a little bit about hunting. So watch what you say before spouting off to those who you don't know. There are alot of people on these boards who are very knowledgible and have some great information. With a bad attitude and constant mudslinging, you will never get any further in life or in your hunting endeavors. One can never stop learning, no matter where he or she is at in their hunting careers or in life itself. Go ahead, the thread is yours, I am not wasting any more of my time on your controversial subjects. Good luck this year

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

And Elkcrazy8 - I hope I am not insulting you. I am sure you do what you say you are doing, but you seem to have a more practical approach to it, not what manboy seems to be implying, though I have yet to be able to quite figure it all out.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

I AM NOT BASHING PEOPLE FOR USING A HORSE! I JUST STATE THE FACTS, HORSES DO TEAR UP TRAILS AS ATV'S. HORSES ARE A TOOL FOR HUNTING AS AN ATV.

I JUST GET THE FEELING SOME OF U THINK, BECUASE U ARE ON A HORSE INSTEAD OF AN ATV U ARE SUPERIOR OVER THE ATV USERS! THIS MAKES NO SENSE TO ME! AND YES WE CAMP AT THE WILDERNESS LINE AND WALK IN NOT USE OUR TOOL ANY FARTHER! FOR THE HUNT!

AND CHARLIE= U DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT MEAT CARE WITH ME! AND SPOILAGE HAPPENS IF U DO NOT COOL THE MEAT DOWN WITHIN 6 HOURS OF THE ORGANS SHUTTING DOWN! THAT IS THE EASY WAY FOR ME TO EXPLAIN IT TO U ALL! I CAN GUARANTEE U IT DOES NOT TAKE ME 6 HOURS TO SKIN AND DE-BONE AN ELK, DOES IT HUNTNMULEYS!;)

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

No offense taken CB, A guy has to be creative these days to hunt the way he wants. It takes money and time. Some have the money and others have the time. Sometimes I wish I had both.

Manboy, I would never down anyone for using either a horse or an ATV. I have done both. And also I would never down anyone for using a guide or going on a DIY hunt. I have done both also. It all boils down to the hunters level of satisfaction, bottom line. I personally never cure the itch. That is why I not only hunt, but I live hunting. Some people find satisfaction in shooting one big pheasant. Others are not satisfied with one deer so they buy and extra tag. I have bought several second elk tags. No one hunter on here is better than another. All of us have different levels of satisfaction. We would not be on this board unless we were all part of the hunting community. It is all of our efforts combined that keep hunting as strong as it is. Congrats on your bull, that is one fine elk.

I just noticed your last post manboy. I kill elk in 70-80 degree weather. Thats when the hunting is the best. Early season. We have lost not an ounce of meet packing the meat out on our feet. I wrap and bag the meat and submerge it in a glacier stream to chill. The meat gets packed out the next morning and iced down in a cooler when we reach town. But hen again, there are no ATV's allowed and the horses would get tangled in all the windfall. If I could get an ATV to the elk, you bet I would.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

Manboy. I hope your kids can teach you something. You could sure use some knowledge.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

SIMPLE, If you don't like the price a guide charges, don't use him. I don't care for horses on the trails either, and I'm sure they don't care for me. So what! I don't use ATV'S the onle problem I have with them is when there on the closed roads. It's always been my belief, if you don't want to deal with horses and atv's just hunt the brush. And far as guides go they don't much the brush either. That's all I have to say!

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

elkcrazy8,
i hear ya on the swap hunts. i do TONS of those, as many as i can. i have made some great friends doing that too, and had some great trips. that little canadian elk hunt on horseback i mentioned a few post ago will be the result of a swap hunt, or at least a buddy i made swap hunting. this year i have 4 guys from florida coming here on a swap for muleys and antelope. if i draw, im going to vermont on a swap for moose. coues in arizona is a possibility too, if i can get the time off. i agree, they save a ton of money. i have been to north quebec, and ohio on swaps, with many more in the works (works meaning whenever i get enough vacation to go everywhere).

alaska is in my future somehow, it will happen. i just might look to swap archery elk for that trip, we have a good hunt here.
if ya ever want to hunt wyoming, look me up

brad

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

ELKCRAZY8=u hit it right on the head , u have to cool your meat down in a stream, then pack it out ! i have never heard or seen a elk spiol using this method! why to go!

james u smart =challenge me!

brush= don't clasify all atv users with the closed road hunters, i hate that myself![:@]

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

manboy: I don't . 99% of the atv users and horse people I run into in the woods are great people!

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

I have no problem With ATV when that say were they be long. When they go around closed gates or go cross country in closed areas I have a big problem with them.
A horse does not leave a well defind trail when they go cross country, Horses do due some damage to main trails but that is an exsiting trail and most trail will get repairs done by the forest service at some point. I have seen horse hunters & outfitters do repairs themself. If you have ever had to put a horse down due to a reck on a trail you'ld know why.
I have walked a cross a medow with elk on the other side, keeping the horse between me and the elk and the elk could care less that we were there. ( as Will Gerr said in J. Johnson Elk don't know how many feet horses have).
Having horses in camp can be a real pain and there is always something that needs to be done with them. you don't just pull into camp and turn the key off.
As for Guides I've seen both sides of that , prices are just like gasoline they are what the market will bare. Most guides and outfitters earn thier money, They must know the game,the country, keep thier client out of trouble, get them on game and if all that comes together get the game out.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

The main difference is the NOISE!!!!! I've been turkey hunting in Missouri, in the Osarks, and sitting on the side of a hill waiting for daylight in complete silence. Then you here it, the damned ATV's on a hilltop 1-2 miles away. If it were horses, you wouldn't hear them. Nothing spoils a day in the woods more than the NOISE of ATV's.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

Ever see how much work a horse is when you run onto a brown bear out in the bush???? You won't have to go looking for your ATV AFTER being bucked off like on a horse!! Every time i've been on a pack string, we had to haul water and food for the horses, then round them up every morning, screw around with there feet, and on and on and on................. NO contest, an ATV is a LOT less trouble than a horse!!!!

BUT, i don't think the bush should be infested with ATV's running all over either!!! It's like anything else, either the owner is responsible or they aren't!!!

Where i lived in Alaska in the early days i could walk out from my house and shoot a decent moose. Not many horses around them days. When i left Alaska, everyone had a horse, and the average hunter could no longer walk far enough into the bush to get a decent moose, as every place you went, some guy on a horse had already trambled the place to death!!! This is a REAL problem there!

AND, anyone who thinks a horse doesn't damage the land, is NUTS!!! In Alaska the horse trails are every bit as tore up as ATV trails, at least where i hunted they was.

BTW, i had a good rideing/pack mule AND an ATV there.


First off, who buys a cub every year????? And, most of the bear hunters i've been around had a perment camp set up, and made a LOT more money off it than just bear hunters!!! Also, if they are flying long distances to get you with there cub, that was charged extra.

Anyway, i think 15K to hunt browns is a total rip off!!! Those of you that think it's a fair price are the ones keeping it up that high!!!! Like someone else said, many will pay it, and that's why it's so high in the first place!

The guides in Alaska are always trying to get more animials added to the list of "gotta have a guide". Many times while i was there they tried to get moose added. In my opinion, the whole thing is over priced.

Also, anyone who thinks that if the price was lowered, all the bears would get shot off doesn't have a clue either!

I guess you need to live there about 20 years or so to understand what it's REALLY like there.

DRilling Man

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

EASSSSYYY there, that was not inteneded to mean people buy a Super Cub every year. Yes, maybe the figures are high, or exagerated, but it is just to show that they have to make a living just like everyone else. I am not trying to start an argument on what the cost of a hunt should/shouldn't be, but its just for the sake of proving a point, that everything costs money, and people will pay as long as there is someone who will provide a service. That cost of that Super Cub could also mean what the cost of a new vehicle every couple of years down here would cost. I know people that are guides, that do guide a LOT of people, but they also buy new equipment quite regularly, and new vehicles more often than a lot of people could even think they could. When you have a camp more than 200 miles away from a hub, but you can't fly, you drive to pick up the clients, and that puts a lot of wear and tear on a vehicle, which means more money to buy a new one every two or three years. I think guides are being forced to keep their clients happy, and one quick way (you would keep me happy anyway, if I were going on a once in a lifetime hunt) would be to keep top notch equipment in top notch shape. That's not an easy task, and compound that with the cost of new vehicles and other equipment, and it adds up quickly.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

Well the Cub does have a required rebuild on the engine that you had better have saved enough money to pay for. Nobody could possibly earn wages, feed 3 or more kids, and go on a brown bear hunt every year. But he could quit makin' car payments any more often than necessary and put that money aside till he had enough to go to South Africa once before the kids all moved out. And after they were out of college, he could probably save enough to go to Patagonia for red deer, bein' way to old for huntin' chamois or thar in New Zealand. [>:] It'd probably worth it in memories alone.

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

I use an ATV and if you consider me lazy...BIG FLIPPIN' DEAL!! You have no idea of what my hunting consists of, I have never drove up on a animal then dismounted and unscabbard my rifle to harvest it. I use it to get into remote areas then hunt like you on foot and in most cases just to transport camp/gear and mostly game in a more effecient manner. It is legal, so if you don't like it...please refer to my first line of the post....BIG FLIPPIN' DEAL.

Sorry but an opinion isn't fact! You do whatever you please but please don't tell me what I should do or suggest I am xxxxx. It is quite evident your experience is limited to a back 40 attitude and you have put on the blinders not seeing that other factors are possibly involved..so live in your bubble but don't expect the rest of us to join you!

RE: tell me the difference.......
 

Manboy,

I said that I had my opinions of ATV but I wouldn't share them. You assumed that I was against them. well, you where right. ATV's destroy much more than horses. If you don't know the advatages of using a horse over an ATV then you need some experience. ATV's put a lot of polution in the air, they are loud and they tear the hell out of the land. I think they should be banned from National forests. I've rode a lot of atv's and they are a lot of fun. Hell, I use to race them in my spare time. I think there is a time and a place for them. I just don't think that the hunting woods is it.

YOu don't see how a guide earns his money. Well, first I don't think of them as "guides". I don't hire them to lead me around the mountain by the hand. I study Topo maps and make my own plans. More than once I have pissed a "guide" off to the point that he didn't want to go with me. Which was fine with me, because I knew where I wanted to go. Most times the "guides" want to guide you to the easy places. They hope you'll shoot something small so they don't have to work as hard. How do they earn there money? Well, I live in Missouri which is a long way from the elk mountains. For me to buy, pack, and haul enough gear to hunt the way I want, it would cost as much or more than the cost of the outfitter. Not to mention the use of there horses and tack, or the meals that they provide. Now if you factor in the prime hunting area into the equation then its cheaper to utilize an outfitter. Now I've taken some of our "flat lander" horse to the mountains once. They couldn't get there wind. It was a nightmare. You need horses that have been in the mountains and know what they are doing. Bottom line; if I lived as close to the mountains as you I wouldn't need the services of an outfitter either. I don't, so I do. I'm not ashamed of it one bit.

PS. I don't like hunting with ATV's. That does not mean that I think less of folks who use them. To each his own. I like to get well beyond the reaches of an ATV.