Dirt2 - I've listened to Ed Sceery talk about hunting bulls. He seems to agree with what you're saying, overaggresiveness in pursuing and over calling bulls, especially middle and later season will push more bulls and their cows away from you than anything.

Thanks for your time. I've got that Carlson fighting cow call, have had it for two years, but I've never taken it on a hunt. I just can't make the darned thing put out consistent sounds. I wind up sounding like a coyote or a duck most of the time. You can't use what you don't trust.

Wolf killer is on the right track with this subject! I will not say that I'm a expert at this subject, But I'm no greenhorn either. I taught myself how to call and bowhunt elk when I was a teenager. It takes time to learn when to call and when not to, and what to say. I honestly think that there is no bull elk on the mountain that can't be called in. its just a matter trial and error of finding what he likes, what pushes his buttons so to speak. This approach takes time (sometimes the entire month of Sept.) and patience. I have almost every elk call ever made at hand, to help me in my hunt. If you screw up, which you will, swich calls and sound like a new elk and try again! I take the fight to the bull and have done so in the last 10 years of calling. My favorite new approach is to sound like a small heard of elk, a sattelite bull with 3-4 cows. I have used this approach the last two years and it works (ausome sp?)!!!. I still push the bull but I first sneak in under 100 yards and open up with several cows talking all at once. Then use satelite bull calls sounding like he trying to keep control over the cows, and other bulls away. This so far seems to drive most heard bulls crazy and makes them think they can steal the satelite bull cows. I like other good callers can sound like 4-5 elk at once. You do have to practice and be a very good caller to pull it off though. If a person wants to learn to call good, one thing I would recomend in addition to tapes and videos. Is to attend and compeate in a calling contest. I have learned many tricks and tips from different competitors. Most competitors are willing to give you advice on how and when to use calls in actual huning experiences. I have in the past when time and money allowed, compeated in the Idaho State elk calling contest sponsered by RMEF. This year I have only compeated in Utah State elk calling competition. I have never won a contest, but did place 2nd in Idaho a few years back On a side note my goal is to be someday be sponsered by a call manufacture. Again when I have time and money I just have to compeate in at least 4 or more different state competitions and win at least 2 and place in the top 3 in others. And of course compeate and place in the top three at the finals at the national RMEF convention, before a company will even think about sponsoring me. My friend who is sponsored by H-S Strutt won the Mens Pro Division RMEF calling contest at nationals this year. Anyway back to my point, good and knowledgeable calling can bring excellent results while hunting. But if you get caught by the wind well the best calling in the world won't save your butt, you'll be busted. Just my 2 cents thanks.

Dirt 2 I was not going to say this, but I need to, to help you out. If you just set back and do nothing that might from time to time bring some sucess. But if your learn to be aggresive while being cautious at the same time then you'll be punching your elk tag every year while bowhunting. It sounds like you need to be more proficent with the calls, all of them just not one or two if you want sucess. Also calling is only one piece of the big puzzle. From the info you gave, in your 02 hunt. you screwed up with your set up and call timing. If you knew the general area of where the bull was (I assume within 100 square yards?). You should of had your set up planned before you ever called. Before I ever call I plan in my head, ok if the bull comes running in to me on the first call where should I be so I don't get pinned down, and do I have a clear shooting lane? And which way is the damn wind comming from? I will call and wait, while waiting I am not silent though, like real elk I try to cow call all the time. Anyway I wait and let the bull make the next move, either come into me or not. If the bull doesn't come into me I move towards him but before moving I have a plan in my head on where to move for my next set up spot, with a alternative back up spot in case there is no shooting lane or the wind is wrong. Aslo I have a plan on what I should do in case a bull moves in on me when I am moving. Yes in the past I have screwed up too, many, many times I might add. Like the calling you have to learn when to move and when not to move. Thats why a proper set up is so inportant, if you have a good set up then there is no reason to move 20 yards. When I move its at least 40 or 50 yards, and I do it quickly, running if needed. If I need twenty more yards I use the calls and bring him to me! My last 3 elk have been at 12, 3, and 18 yards. I love to get close! My farthest shot was 35 yards on a bull that I could not get closer too. I had a cow at 5 yards staring at me I had to shot or else! Also if you have a cow or bull bark at you just bark back. They stare at you funney instead of running off and the other elk in the heard seem to just ignore it. I tell people learning to elk hunt successfuly is like trying to take a drink of water from a fire hydrant and not spill any water. You are going to spill water (make mistakes) but thats have the fun of it. I am only 30 years old and can look back at myself 10 or even 5 years ago and laugh and say if I only knew this, man I would have killed that huge bull. Dirt 2 I honestly hope this didn't offend you, I have been in your shoes and have been very frustrated. And if I did I appologize! I hope you will be sucessful and have fun in this years hunt! Thanks Idaho Elk.

you hit it right on the button, I once barked back and forth to a cow in a heard for about 30 min. Sound like a heard and growl or bark back if they're doing it. I once growled just for the heck of it and the bull started growling back at me.

Hey, no offense whatsoever, I appreciate the feedback.

On the hunt I outlined, I agree that I could have gone in with a little more of a proactive plan. Instead, I wound up reacting on the fly, and it cost me, although I wouldn't trade that experience for the world. Thing is, the evening before that bull was bugling freely, so I expected the same the next morning. Instead he clammed up tight. My plan that morning, was to cruise up the canyon bottom without bugling, let him bugle and then move in. Finally, around wind switching time, having heard not a peep, I let out with a cowcall and a bugle, sort of a "where the heck did you go?" call. The rest I already talked about.

Also, I agree totally with your statement about finding the right blend of the passive vs. the aggressive. I think, however, that a cautious soul like myself is always going to lean a little toward the passive. Some one who is a real A-type buttkicker will naturally want to push the envelope a little more.

My three years have been quite a progression. My first year ('01), I took 16 days vacation, backpacked all over creation, and had lots of fun. However, it was like I had a plexiglass shield around me at a 50 yard radius. I could not get a bull within 50 yards, it was really hangup city. One bull, in the same canyon as the hijinks I already described, I had between 50 and 75 yards four times in 36 hours. He was the classic running bull type, who whipped his cows into a gallop at the first sound of a bugle. I think he did this because he knew he was the second fiddle bull in there; he was a 4 yr. old 260ish 6 pointer. I also had a 290 bull hang up on me that year.

My second year, also with 16 days off, I did the same backcountry stuff. This time I called elk into bow range on 5 different occasions, including the real monster. One was 310 bull that came in to some cow calling I'd done an hour or so before. When he came in I was sacked out taking a nap in the warm noon sun, with my bow 10 feet behind. He came in silent, like a whitetail buck with his nose on the ground. What a fiasco! I also missed a bull that year, shot under a little raghorn because I had talked myself into 40 yard shots and I missestimated the range.

Then last year, I finally broke through for real. (Truthfully, I think I broke through the year before, just no blood to show for it.) I had only 12 days vacation, but didn't need all that as it turned out. I had some fun on prevacation weekends, including one weekend hunt with my then-8-year-old nephew. I'm trying to break the kid in right. We had four bulls bugling at once, two came in, but no shots presented. Solo, I could probably have killed the second bull, but my nephew got a good show so it was well worth it. We cornered a herd bull, about a 270 6-by-5, and he really went bonkers, but wouldn't quite leave his cows to come down to us. Three days into my vacation, I had three different elk in very close on one day, and killed the third. He'll go P&Y if I ever get him scored, about 265 net. I'm very proud of that bull, and I've probably mentioned him in about four million different posts by now.

I know I've got tons to learn yet. That's sort of why I started this post.

Wind.. always the darn wind! I'm all for "Scent-Lok" this and "Scent-Blocker" this, but I personally feel unless you are a millionare and buy EVERYTHING scent free and everyone that hunts with you does too, they only "help", barely. I absolutely hate these ads that say "Forget the Wind... just Hunt". Well, hunting is all you do.. shooting and killing you won't! I take the Real Estate approach... the 3 more important things.. Wind.. Wind.. Wind.

Tactics we have picked up over the years (about 10 hunters in the family/"gang" - 100's of dead Elk - some 350+ class bulls - rifle and bow):

1) Don't over Bugle and learn to listen the Elk. You can tell when a Bull just wants you to answer him so he knows what direction to push his Cows.. AWAY FROM YOU! Learn to chase those. Become a "lost cow" trying to catch up to the herd or join him. You might be surprised when he holds a bit or comes back to get you for his herd. (This really works earlier in the year when they are herding cows)

2) Don't become the Bugle champion of the world. Have you ever really listened to a bull elk in the wild? He's a growling, gargling, sometimes horrible sounding beast. The "best bugle" sometimes sounds so good it drives somewhat decent bulls away thinking you are a herd bull and nothing will mess with you! Also, some big bulls get used to the perfect bugle equals man or the old..... eh.. I'll just hold up at 100 yards and you come to me bull!

2a) Change up your bugle and sounds. Play with em! I don't think you can produce that bad of a bugle to scare them off. Unless you start squeeling like a dead rabbit!

3) WATCH and just don't stare at one bull... anyone who has chased Elk alot knows of the infamous "Satellite Bull". Some bugle leery bulls without cows will come in silent trying to steal a cow or two. This is very common with rag bulls or even spikes. Big, roaming bulls will do it too.

4) Become a herd of Elk. Walking around won't spook Elk (before you've actually spotted them or close, etc.), especially if you and your hunting partners mix in calling and talking like a bunch of Elk. We really like the Calf/Cow combo of sounding like a herd of Cows and Calves. They seem to like company and will bunch up in bigger herds. Bulls know this.. they will come. More COWS equals...

With all of this said, we like cow calling alot more than bugling. We usually bugle to find them and go from there. Every now and then you can really bring a bull in close bugling back and forth, etc. In my opinion, this is "Hollywood" hunting and usually works in the movies or dead heat of the rut. Overall, good cow calling and herd bull chasing can't be beat.

Anyway, hope this all helps and good luck hunting!!

Thanks! Your points about bull bugles really got me reminiscing.

My favorite bugler was the running bull I talked about earlier. Every morning at first light I would pick him up by his bugling, and just stand there for a while listening to his bugle in amazement. I cannot stress how "bad" this bull was at bugling. He absolutely would have been run off the stage at a bugling contest, "Uh sir, the flute recital is across town at the cultural center." The best way I could describe it is to imagine someone imitating that two-tone siren call on some firetrucks with a flute. He'd go ooh-ahh-ooh-ahh until he ran out of breath, then close off with the godawfullest growl imaginable. To add to the strangeness, as I would bugle back at him over the course of the morning, he would gradually conform his bugle to mine until he sounded "normal". Then next morning, it would start all over again.

Anyway, that bugle taught me to be confident in my own bugling. I knew from then on I could never sound as bad as he did. I really think calling ability is vastly overrated. I use a power bugle, and am pretty good with it, but the call that really knocks'em dead is my throat bugle. I just let out a caterwalling squall approximating a bugle, and it really works. Sometimes I'll demonstrate it for a hardcore bugling purist just to watch them roll their eyes. I would use only this "primal scream" bugle IF my throat could take it. As is, I have to ration out my use of the call to save my throat. I also cow call with my throat, and unlike my throat bugle, it is very good sounding. I could probably win contests with it, but again I have to limit it to about 20-30% of the time to save my throat. I use a Sceery call the rest of the time.

Also, I don't buy scent control either. Partly because on an 8 day backpack hunt you just are not going to contain the ol' BO.

Thanks again, I was hoping some really experienced hunters/callers would go in depth on this post like you have. It should make for some good reading.

the hanging bulls aren't just a problem for archery hunters. I usually hunt the dark timber w/ rifle and believe me it sucks when your vision is limited to 25-30yds and that sucker it thrashing brush at 40. Most important is not to sit on your a$$ and call, when he answers your call work towards him.