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Yellowstone is Dead

Old 01-23-2011, 11:04 PM
  #101  
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Sorry I didn't put two and two together after reading some of the comments regarding staying up all night watching cattle, etc. Still a bias exists which you cannot deny but you will continue to try and do so because you have an agenda. Do you not care what the benefits are of the wolf reintroduction or do you only care that all wolves are dead? You come to this site to post Yellowstone is Dead thinking this is a great place to push your agenda and I have no doubt that you are upset that you aren't getting the "kill all wolves" sentiment from everyone on this site because there are intelligent people who see things for what they are.

But seriously, you really want to play this game? Do your own research by searching benefits of wolf reintroduction and you will get plenty of hits with plenty of scientific works. Just like you will get plenty of hits for the opposite argument. You could read everything from the Sierra Club, Westernwolves.org, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, and any other site but it all comes down to the same thing as YOU, they all have an agenda. You are seriously trying to tell me there is not a benefit to having wolves in the wild and that there cannot be any middle ground?

And I want to note, I am not an advocate for wolves, never have been, never will be but I do actually have a brain to think for myself instead of having someone like moremules push their agenda on me.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:20 AM
  #102  
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I live in Northern Idaho, moremules is 100% correct! I can take you for a drive arround the North Fork of the Clearwater River and show you wolf killed elk every where up there, they kill the elk, eat a small portion then go kill another. I love how all the people that dont live here and see what has happened in past years since the introduction of the wolves, know what is best for us. It is amazing that the Idaho Fish and Game even admitts we have a problem, our Govener says we have a problem, but the people that doesnt live here says we dont!
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:58 AM
  #103  
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Don't know much about this issue cause like Fritz said I don't live there.It seems like 2 other sitituations that happened in this country pretaining to "protected wildlife". One was in N.California with the cougars & the other was in NJ with the black bears.

Any animal left uncontrolled will eventually become a problem as did the cougar & bear.HUNTING...........I repeat HUNTING is the most effect way & most cost effective method to control wildlife.So until the season is re-opened on the wolf these western states they will face the same issues as Cali & NJ.

I believe California has reinstated a mt.lion hunt & this was the first year you could hunt bears in NJ in like 10yrs.
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:12 AM
  #104  
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Well said Fritz .
I remember years ago on hunting forums if anyone had any negative feed back on wolves that they were pounced by an overwhelming support for the wolf being placed back into our ecosystem . Everyone got a warm fuzzy feeling about it doing the right thing .

Now things are going the other way I think people out amongst them, the people that live with the wolves day in and days out has seen there destruction first hand .

And I have a hard time with " Sound Science ".
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Old 01-24-2011, 07:20 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by dack77 View Post
Sorry I didn't put two and two together after reading some of the comments regarding staying up all night watching cattle, etc. Still a bias exists which you cannot deny but you will continue to try and do so because you have an agenda. Do you not care what the benefits are of the wolf reintroduction or do you only care that all wolves are dead? You come to this site to post Yellowstone is Dead thinking this is a great place to push your agenda and I have no doubt that you are upset that you aren't getting the "kill all wolves" sentiment from everyone on this site because there are intelligent people who see things for what they are.

But seriously, you really want to play this game? Do your own research by searching benefits of wolf reintroduction and you will get plenty of hits with plenty of scientific works. Just like you will get plenty of hits for the opposite argument. You could read everything from the Sierra Club, Westernwolves.org, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, and any other site but it all comes down to the same thing as YOU, they all have an agenda. You are seriously trying to tell me there is not a benefit to having wolves in the wild and that there cannot be any middle ground?

And I want to note, I am not an advocate for wolves, never have been, never will be but I do actually have a brain to think for myself instead of having someone like moremules push their agenda on me.
Dack, theres and old saying that goes, "you can Bull**** the Fans, but you can't Bull**** the Players". You and a few others on here thought I was a fan. The lower 48 had it's own native wolves, the USFWS and IDFG new this, they also knew that the native wolves would not produce the damage that was needed in order to fulfill agendas, ED Bangs and Defenders of wildlife brought the biggest baddest wolf they could find into the lower 48 and they did it illegally. If this wolf is what you are trying to say, why is it that the USFWS and environmentalists have lied to everyone from the very beginning?

I have DONE my own research, I have read the lies of the pro-wolf side and like you, I can nock their d$cks in the dirt in any wolf debate, if I get into any trouble I have a whole slew of people I can bring in that have been living in this wolf mess since the beginning and believe me they know from experience what these wolves have done. When the wolf cult starts loosing a debate the first thing they do is start name calling and hate shoots from their mouth, the most vile language you wouldn't let your dog listen to flies from their lips, they threaten to kill you and your children. They try to turn the wolf around just like you did, saying that those who don't want this wolf have agendas. The problem that the wolf cult is having today is their lies are being exposed, we have 15 years of proof on the ground in WY, Mt, and Idaho and now the the same lies are being used in states that are going through the "release and then discover" program. Write a wolf plan and the wolves will show up. When you said you could throw up more proof then I could, I realized what I was dealing with. I don't think Utah will allow wolves in their state they have seen the damage.

I put the trailers to Scott Rockholm's documentary on this hunting site to inform people and with the hope that they would inform others. I checked back into see how many had viewed my post. I find it very hard to listen to people who push a wolf they know nothing about and that my friend is where we are today.

Last edited by moremules; 01-24-2011 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 01-24-2011, 03:11 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by brianspetcare View Post
I am a biologist and in my ecology class in college they discussed what happens when things are signficantly changed. When you add or remove a species it has drastic changes to the whole ecosystem. When I went to Yellowstone years ago (as a driving through the park visitor) I learned that because of the wolves the herbivores stopped eating the plants by the streams because they were too out in the open (easy prey for the wolves). This let the plants grow more, which shaded the streams, which cooled them, which allowed the trout to return. This sounded good to me and really demonstrated the far reaching effects of a top predator. I even had a question on a college exam about this exact situation.

In this case when you introduce a predatory species that has been gone for decades, which allowed its prey to increase in numbers, you will get a HUGE increase in the population of the predator. It will be so big that it will drive its prey almost to extinction. The long term effect of the drop in prey is a big drop in the predator. Then the prey comes back, then the predator, etc. Eventually you will hit a more natural balance (which still usually goes through cycles). The problem is that this is on a very long term scale (many decades to centuries).

To me it seems like hunting the wolf is an absolutely perfect way to keep their population from rising so sharply that they bring their prey within sight of extinction. They were there before, in balance, but it would be a LONG time for it to ever reach that naturally, if it did.

In my opinion someone should have the right to keep animals on their own property under control. I know when the squirrels get out of control here (literally chewing on the deck and house) the problem doesn't last long...
Was thinking the same thing and i never took a college course in bio either. Its just common sense. Now what they should have done was.

1. Back in 99 they should have let more of them go, say quadruple of what they did.
2. Fixed the all of them before letting them loose to study the effects it had on the environment
3. Left them listed as long as they were sterile.
4. Made a law stating that if stuff went south shall kill permits would be issued.

You learned this in a basic bio class. You mean to tell me that not one stinking environmentalist or biologist knew this?

I am sure the sportsmen or surrounding folks would not have had an issue with this setup. This is all soooooooooo screwed up!

Last edited by NJheadhunter71; 01-24-2011 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:03 PM
  #107  
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For all you gents that don't think there a different subscecies of grey wolf read this on the whole YS debacle. There were even other groups who opposed the reintro based on the fact that they used the wrong wolf. Theses groups had no agendas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...in_Yellowstone
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Old 01-26-2011, 03:46 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by NJheadhunter71 View Post
For all you gents that don't think there a different subscecies of grey wolf read this on the whole YS debacle. There were even other groups who opposed the reintro based on the fact that they used the wrong wolf. Theses groups had no agendas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...in_Yellowstone
Great info!! Thats what I have been trying to tell these guys on here, but we have to many experts that think they have all the answers.
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Old 01-26-2011, 05:55 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by NJheadhunter71 View Post
For all you gents that don't think there a different subscecies of grey wolf read this on the whole YS debacle. There were even other groups who opposed the reintro based on the fact that they used the wrong wolf. Theses groups had no agendas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...in_Yellowstone

OK, Can you and Fitz,who lives in Idaho, (where everyone is a wolf expert) and I don't explain, what exactly is the barier that keeps Canadian Greys (most are actually black) from wondering south from British Columbia down the Flatheat and Columbia River valleys. Us idjuts that don't live in Idaho can't find the barrier on any of my maps.
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Old 01-26-2011, 06:05 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by NJheadhunter71 View Post
For all you gents that don't think there a different subscecies of grey wolf read this on the whole YS debacle. There were even other groups who opposed the reintro based on the fact that they used the wrong wolf. Theses groups had no agendas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...in_Yellowstone

according to that looks like the elk are the problem, not the wolves

Once the wolves were gone the elk began to take over. Over the next few years conditions of Yellowstone National Park declined drastically. A team of scientists visiting Yellowstone in 1929 and 1933 reported, “The range was in deplorable conditions when we first saw it, and its deterioration has been progressing steadily since then.” By this time many biologists were worried about eroding land and plants dying off. The elk were multiplying inside the park and deciduous, woody species such as aspen and cottonwood suffered from overgrazing. The park service started trapping and moving the elk and, when that was not effective, killing them. This killing continued for more than 30 years. This method helped the land quality from worsening, but didn't improve the conditions. At times, people would mention bringing wolves back to Yellowstone to help control the elk population. The Yellowstone managers were not eager to bring back wolves, especially after having so successfully ridding the park of them, so they continued killing elk. In the late 1960s, local hunters began to complain to their congressmen that there were too few elk, and the congressmen threatened to stop funding Yellowstone. Killing elk was given up as a response, and then the population of the elk increased exponentially. With the rapid increase in the number of elk, the condition of the land again went quickly downhill. The destruction of the landscape affected many other animals. With the wolves gone, the population of coyotes increased dramatically, which led to an extreme decrease in the number of pronghorn antelope.[citation needed] However, the increase in the elk population caused the most profound change in the ecosystem of Yellowstone after the wolves were gone
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