BeaverJack, ever feel like any opinion you have and want to express will get shot down on this thread, I sure do.

You know schmalts, if you would have done your homework before your hunt, you would have found some background on the outfitter that would have been useful, especially from the DORA site that you found after the fact. Call any Outfitter Associations that they belong to and check on required permits if they are taking you on public land. Ask if they are bonded. Remember that facts always carry a lot of weight. Seems like you are backtracking now a bit. If you were going to use references, ask the outfitters for a list of ALL of the hunters from a particular hunt week. And speak with them personally. If they are not home have them call you collect. And ask the right questions. The ones that are important to you. That is real important. I talked to a reference for a bow hunt that I went on and asked him why he picked that particular outfitter. The man told me flat out out reason he picked them was because of a strict no alcohol policy that this outfitter has. He said he could make the most out of any hunt that he would be taken on if there was a no alcohol policy. He had some bad experiences with other outfitters when he was the only one in camp that refused to drink. BTW this man (and his father)did not score on an Elk with the oufitter, but both totally enjoyed that hunt and plan to rebook with him.

I just have a really hard time with that statement. Reading a post from someone lost in cyberspace don' t cut it for me and has no credibility as far as I am concerned. Especially without letting the outfitter have his say.

Maybe I wouldn' t put it exactly like that, but I will still give that an AMEN!

Stop Bob before I start to cry. Give me address and we' ll send you some flowers or a card or somethin.

Rather, It is people like you that make it hard for people to know what to believe on the internet, which is my whole point about using that site instead of using references and talking to people personally. However, in this instance the more you write, the less credible you become so it becomes a little easier in this case. It seems like you are getting a less and less away from the original post and are getting closer and closer to trying to discredit all others with an opinion different then your own. If you really want to send me flowers, e-mail me and please deliver them yourself.

BobCo19-65 & BeaverJack here is a little business lesson. He both feel that one or two negitive responses towards a business will destroy it, YA RIGHT !!!!

With my dad' s fishing charters we found that 20% or the clients did not return from year to year for various reasons (too expensive, no time, doing other expensive vacations). Working at fishing shows (exibitor), our 10,000 pamphets which included a complete record or the last 3-4 years of fishing, would give us maybe a 2-3 % increase in new clients. But these shows also reinforced our commentment to our regular customers. What was most important to our business was the Happy Customer. His good times on the boat, his pictures (we had good area for taking pictures at the dock) would bring in new customers each year. We figured out that the word of mouth would bring in 15-25% new customers from year to year (depending on the economy).

BeaverJack you said:
Well I will say this, I have seen many good fisher people loose their charter business because they did not have the business sense or the manners to handle people. They could catch fish, but noone had fun on their boats. They charged BIG MONEY but forget to make it enjoyable for their clients.

BobCo19-65 you said:
Well BobCo19-65, do you know what advertizing is. Advertizing is a business giving out one sided information to promote their own business. The companies, if they choose to include testiments from clients, choose clients that will benifit them with what they say. You say that you must trust the guide in devulging their complete client record for referances, Are you really that naive. No guide will give out their client records for fear of loosing their clients to others that would undercut them. A guide will only usually give out the names to the most trusted clients, ones that he has no fears or loosing to people that would try to steal them with lower fares. I find that you get a variance or reports ranging from good to bad reports using these unsolisited comments from clients. I believe that if you get a better reading from these than you do from clients lists and advertizing.

I look at both your comments on this thread just like I would some from the unsolisited sites. I dismiss them out of the garbage, and comments with no bais. Anything that I find like your comments, They have no bais, I just dismiss, just like most all other people will do.

Beaverjack - An observation, not the first volley in a flame war - I think it' s amusing that 99% of your own posts on these threads are unsolicited; nor are they scientific. That being said, I usually enjoy reading them, for various reasons.

One thing I suggest to people is to ask Outfitters for references from people who didn' t fill their tags. I believe that these people will often give a more objective representation of how hard the Outfitters worked, to get them game. My 2 cents - I' m back to lurking.. [:-]

Really, we can have a conversation without name calling, accusing, putting words in each others mouth, or putting each other down, can' t we???

I stated that I would ask for the names of everyone on a particular hunting week, the same week as I am planning to hunt. For instance, this year I asked an outfitter for the names and phone numbers of all hunters that hunted with his place for the first week of bow season. He didn' t ask a few of the fellows, so he asked if he could get back to me after he asked if they would be references for him. Sounds reasonable so far right? Well he took seven archers out that week last year, and guess what I got seven numbers. I confirmed the number of hunters that hunted that week with the other hunters and everything was legit. I only called four and felt it was enough, I had no need to call everyone. No kind of conspiracy there.

First intellengent thing you' ve said on the whole thread but need I remind you??...

You opened that door.

Not really sure what you mean by me handing out misinformation. I did mistake you for a booking agent but I later apologized for that, to which you never acknowledged by the way. Other than that show me my evil internet propoganda that is full of misinfo. I' m man enough to admit when I' m wrong but one honest mistake hardly constitutes your accusations. And honestly I was just giving you a hard time about the flowers a bit. No need for threats here. Besides we are online and its easy to sit behind your computer screen and bite off more than you can chew. I' m not one to take you up on your offer but someone might someday.

Let me be the bigger man here. I can see your point of view as far as damaging good outfitters reputations with some undeserved negative reviews. However I disagree because the good ones are going to get mostly good reviews and its all even in the end. Customers are spending enough money that most of them research and make informed desicions. Every other industry; ie. ATV' s, firearms, game calls, are subject to the same reviews and it does not seem to hurt them. If outfitters give good service I believe they will be successful. And yes the internet is the wave of the future like it not. Outfitters are running a business and they need to ask customers for positive feedback when possible. If you want to play ball you gotta learn how to swing the bat.

Not really any more I can add to this thread.

I you look back, yore gonna see I proposed goin' to references that thoroughly check ALL an outfitter' s clients. They send ' em all questionaires, then rate the outfitter. Now that' s fair. People got no idea how hard it is to run a huntin' camp. Organized chaos is what it is. Very thin margins an' lots of unknowns. In Wyoming, you don' t even know how many hunters you will have to fill your camp. 40 could draw, or 4. Makes it a lil' hard to guage costs, line up stock, feed, help, etc. Anybody wants to crusade agin' a outfitter needs to work a season with the feller. If you still think he' s a crook, then tell him so face to face. Don' t go trashin' him ahind his backside. Ain' t the way I was brung up. I went toe-to-toe with a outfitter several years back. He had a tip pool and when it came time to divide up the tips, he didn' t have it. Had been dippin' into the account to cover his costs. After our lil' discussion, I worked out the season with the guy, collected my money, an' never talked about it with anybody who wasn' t involved. In hindsight, I know the guy a lil' better now, he ain' t the mos' up an' up, but he' s human, an' in a hard business. Ain' t for me to run off his clients, mos' are happy with his camp anyhoo. I suggest y' all pull out yer bibles an' look up what was said ' bout throwin' stones an' such. Sewin' circle gossip ain' t right. Do it scientific or quit makin' pretenses ' bout yer manhood altogether. I reckin' they got innernet sites fer cross-stitchin' .

BeaverJack you keep praising the hunting guides claiming that it is a tough job. No doubt that it is a tough business to be in. Trouble is you say it is not fair for someone to post unflattering statements about a guide (because it is a tough type of work) which was that person' s personal interactions with that guide. You say that the guides would be able to respond to the complaints. Mean while the guides you stick up for keep advertizing and making one sided statments and do not allow the dissatisfied to respond on their addvertisements.

You can' t have it both ways. If you want them to be able to reply to statements against them, then the dissatisfied should be able to make statements on that guides advertisments. That will never happen, therefore these sites are the only place for the average joe to read the DARKSIDE of the guides. After we hear about that side, as well as the good sides from the same site, then the average joe is able to make an informed decission.

BeaverJoke, so you' re saying that if a guy is a hard worker, he should be allowed to make some mistakes occasionally at the expense of the clients? Hmmm, I should have tried that statement with the bank a few times over the years when work was so slow that you couldn' t BUY a job. " What do you mean you' re going to repossess my truck? I know I' m late with some payments, but I' m a hard worker!" I had my own business for awhile, many moons ago. If I scheduled a service call on a certain date and I didn' t make it, do you think those folks forgave me because I was a hard worker? YEAH, RIGHT! In your fantasy world, any man who claims to have a huge set should be forgiven all his sins. In the real world, if you make a promise, and it involves receiving payment, you better be able to make good. Like my daddy used to say, " If you can' t $hit, get off the pot!"