Flairball

I think your idea, and understanding of how many ranches are managed for deer, and how most TV shows are produced is a bit off. My grandfather was a guide in Texas for many years. I'm no expert, but I have a little knowledge. The ranches are larger than the deers normal home range, so many of the deer never leave the ranch. Most ranches are fencedin a manner that will not stop a deer. The deer are also given supplimental feed, food plots, feeders, and such. This isn't "feeding" or "raising" them. How much feed would it takeif they were feeding the deer? I'm sure if they were feeding them the cost would be unbelievable. As for the naming of deer. Only the elusive, extrordinary, stand outbucks get named. This is ussually a deer that people have been seeing for a few years, but no one has tagged yet. The names they recieve are nicknames, the same a a big deer running around any other part of the country avoiding a bullet gets a nickname. No one is incharge of naming it, just some day, some one gives it a name that sticks.

As far as your understanding of the producion of the TV shows; No one wants to watch footage of a hunter in his stand looking at nothing. The raw footage from these shows gets edited. This makes it look easy. Of course some time people get lucky and score on the first day. I have. Anyway, put your self in a producers shoes and think ratings for a minute.

I understand you have a position you must stand by, but I felt the need to clarify a few thing. Please note, I am not denying that canned hunts don't exist. I'm just trying to clear the air a little.

pintoshot

Flairball-your points are well taken. And, I am sure there are many Ranches that fit the bill you describe. It's the others that cross the line. Out here, to find a nice buck is like finding a needle in a haystack. Then, you have to pattern the dang thing enough to give yourself a chance. Most of the true trophy bucks are largely nocturnal and you may never see them ecept in the summer-early fall with extended daylight hours. Whitetails are a bit easier out here because they don't range very far (though they do range a bit farther than one would normally expect in the wide open wheat country.).Muleys however can bee seen today, and in the next county tomorrow. The point is, on public and wilderness lands large trophy bucks are like ghosts and you most certainly would never see one enough to "name it' or pattern it, unless you were a full-time scouter or guide. Alot of us have to pattern bucks on the fly, that is to say on a 2-5 day hunt on which you are doing an incredible amount of spot & stalk. In all my years of hunting out west I have never seen a tree-stand while hunting. Out here tree standuse is rare except by a few bow hunters. Our country is full of topography and relief. Most hunting is done in spot & stalk style.There is some blind hunting but mostly in natural cover such as in elk hunting a tree lined meadow. It's mostly active hunting as opposed to sitting & waiting, though there is some of that too. So I guess my reality of what hunting is, is just different because of the conditions we hunt in here in the northwest. In all my logged miles of hunting I have never known a buck by name. Nor, could I ever be positve from year, to year, that the buck I'm looking at, I may have seen before (when younger). No, its a very "pure" form of hunting that my experience has been gained from. And, after seeing some of "what else" goes on in the hunting world, I am very grateful for it's purity. Hunting is getting a bit too sophisticated for my tastes. Give me a good rifle, some public land or wilderness, a good pair of boots, a knife, survival gear, binoculars, knowledge of wind direction and a few animals and call it good. And yes, I do have a couple of farmer friends who's land is bordered by public hunting land that I use from year to year. But it isnt fenced. You ever see washington wheat country? Now that would take some miles of fencing.

tangozulu

WOW,
I suppose this forum is a bit old but bowedark,
really struck a vital here. I don't think he deserves some of the rude comments sent his way.Like most of you, my sentiments are somewhere in the middle.
First of all, where you live will have a huge impact on your perspective, no one is wronge here, but no one is entirely right either. Of course if you live out east or in a mainly privately held agriculteral state you will have a different hunting concept than someone from Alaska. No need to be rude, but to suggest a private ranch hunt in Colorado is the same as a private land hunt in Mich. is a little off base.
And by the way, it could just as easily be argued thatsome ofyou are a bit sensitive because your own trophy's were taken on a managedhunt as the case that you make of bowedarkjust being jealous.
First of all virtually all non-residents need a guide and outfitter to hunt Western Canada. Does that mean their Sheep cant be scored for B and C?
Of Course not. I don't think a single Stone Ram was ever taken on private land and hopefully that will never change.
I too subscribe to the notion that the B and C Records attemptsto honor the animals. Sure there are hunters who need a bit of an ego boost but I feel the Boone and Crocket is actually a reference book that biologists, and otherscan use to show past wildlife patterns,health, distribution etc. It really is a scientifically usefull book. To record pandered or animals who lived in a controled situation, within the B and C,destroys the credibility of this information. Those animals can go into the SCI or some other book.
For instance, only 4 elk scored over 400 B and C for the first 100 years or so of records keeping. There are hunt ranches today that will let you pick from dozens of 400 plus elk that you are guarranteed to take home. No kill no Pay. I know this is a bit of a stretch from a private ranch hunt or a guided hunt, but the extremes have to meet somewhere. Just where is this middle ground?
Guides are good people, many of my friends are guides, but please remember we are all resident hunters when we are at home. When I am sheep hunting on public land in my own province and the local outfitter is flying over my head all day looking for sheep in his airplane, should I think that any rams he takes are the same as someone who didn't use a plane? I think this is where bowedark is coming from and it is a valid arguement. This may not bea problem in the western US but arrived inNorthern BC and Yukon from Alaska about 20 years ago. This practise is not exactly illegal, but to me it is bothunethical and unnecessary. Often the non resident hunter booked with the outfitter is not even aware that his ram is being located from an aircraft. The question is do we accept both methods as being "equal?"Or does the measure of effort make one trophy more relevent than the other? Perhaps a ram located by aircraft should be ineligable for B and C on ethical grounds. Or should it definately be recorded for its scientific value.Don't worry, the truely big rams were taken on fairchase hunts that lasted weeks on horseback, but then rumour has it the Chadwick ram was shot by the guide. The Boone and Crockett stopped recording Alaska Polar Bears many years ago because it was standard practice to hunt them with a supercub. If polar bear hunting were reopened today, would we again allow their recording because we are now less ethical???
Remember that wildlife belongs to the public, that means you and me. This is a very important point. Its one of the reasons you fought the war of independence. Most of these arguments arrise when someone such as a land owner or outfitter start thinking that this public resource actually belongs to them. I guess when you fence it in, it would appear possesion is 9/10th of the law, no matter how big the ranch.
In England all the rabbits belonged to the king and lived in the king's forest. A starving man could be hung for eating one of the kings rabbits, or one of his salmon. In North America, all game whether on public or private land belongs not to the king but to the great unwashed.We should all rejoice in this.
So go hunting and have fun, be you a meat or trophy hunter. Remember that the most important part of hunting is the practise of fair chase. If this is not so, then you are no longer hunting (to seak), and we are no longer Hunters (seakers).We do no one more harm than we do to ourselves, by constantly redefineing what that means..
Happy Hunting

DoctorDeath

WELL IF YOU DISQULIFY ANY ANIMAL TAKEN WITH A GUIDE THEN ANY ANIMAL HARVESTED IN CANADA BY AN AMERICAN WOULD NEVER GO INTO THE BOOK ... YOU HAVE TO USE AN OUTFITTER IN CANADA AND MOST ACT AS EITHER AGUIDE OR HAS ONE WORKING FOR HIM ....

ROLL TIDE
DD

hatcher

I have to agree with much of what Deercorn,Pintoshot,and you too Red have all been saying but I think Rather be hunting hit a nail squarely.
Hunting nowadays is sorely confused by many, if not most, to be a competitive sport. You here all the time the same old tired argument about not having alevel playing field among the differentteams and how things just aren't fair out there in pro sports land. Some hunters just want to equate the same distinctions to hunting. I would agree whole heartily with rather be huntin, the book was meant to reconize the game animal and I might add, the area it was taken from. The name of the hunter is actually of minor importance when researching the Books for information. Some people are just into bragging rights and feeding their egos it seems. They want to gripe if there's no hope in them of ever doing that. The truth is, people like this ought to be complaining to records people to start making the distinction for free range or high fence kills. This might have the affect of lowering the value of high fence trophys to point of where the desperate could afford it, although I doubt it. Maybe they already do, shows you how much I know about those darn books!

















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CAMPFOURCORNERS

as long as its free rangin wild game with no high fences i dont care if its private land or guided its still hunting. some people bust their a$$es for a week on guided hunts and can still come up empty handed

shed33

Define "fair chase" and then go from there...

bow357

To each his own......
I don't have a habit of knocking how other people hunt.