huntingirl89its nice to see that you come back and vist us every once and a while lol to sort out an agrument over draw weight? lol

I go where I'm needed

Yes im with anyone who thinks a 30-35# bow can take deer. It is proven, Im Cherokee and they hunted with 30# bows and like everyone said its all about shot placement. The Cherokee's hunted deer with the small bows, it was so easy for them becasue they were exceleent shots with there bows. even if you dont kill a deer the humane way it doesnt matter, all it took was a one arrow comin from a 30# at close range, and it would either drop dead there or run off a cuople miles, nothin much. It can be done.

I'm about half Sauk with some Iroquois thrown in there. I grew up traditionally and even know some of the language. I have a few of my grandfather's bows that he made, and have been on the reservation a few of my summers.

Perhaps a history lesson is in order. 30-35# was more than sufficient for them because they used hunting techniques that are nearly dead now. They dressed as their prey and walked amoung them, they weren't noticed because they knew how to act like them, they weren't detected because they smelled like them, and could take an animal from as little as 10 feet away. They also drove animals off the edge of cliffs and into water to kill them or slow them down so they could be taken at a closer range.

Also don't make the assumption that natives used only one type of bow, because there were others that were of a higher weight that differed from location and tribes. Also, obsidian is MUCH sharper than steel will ever be. Look closely and compare the two under the microscope. Steel is choppy and sloppy and looks like it'll just tear rather than penetrate and cause any real damage. Obsidian on the other hand, is still being used by some surgeons because it offers a much cleaner and efficient cut with half the effort. A small obsidian projectile will pass through flesh much more smoothly than the sharpest metal blade. This can be easily proven. I don't recommend nor condone it because it could potentially be dangerous, but if you were to take a blade from your arrow head, and try to shave the hairs from your arm. Using a small obsidian fleck, apply the same amount of pressure to your arm and drag. You'll remove the top layer of your skin with just that small movement. With a projectile like that, you won't need a huge amount of weight.

For hundreds of years, the native men had one purpose; killing. Whether it was killing opposing tribes, or animals, their shots were well practiced and near perfect. They hardly had to worry if the arrow would find its mark. A bow was placed in a young boy's hands from the time he was able to hold it. From that day foward he'd shoot. He'd make his own arrows, his own bow, and master the skill to provide for the tribe.

Humans, whether you believe in evolution or not, have the same systems, functions and needs as animals. We require energy to do work. We get our energy through the food and other resources we take in. If we are doing a large amount of work, we require a large amount of energy, and therefore a large amount of food. Now whether natives recognized it scientifically or not it is not known for sure, but it is hardwired into every animal not to waste more energy than is needed, therefore they would not be taking long shots to chance spooking or wounding the animal because then it would require more energy to track it down. One shot, one kill was the easiest way to go because it required less energy and was therefore more sensible. They simply did not have the mass resources available to us to keep a constant (overabundant) supply of energy. Take a look at the cheetah, this is a perfect example of this behavior.

Now, if you are Cherokee as you say, you must have been brought up with some tradition. In this tradition you are taught (I know this because I have many Cherokee friends and my Grandma speaks Cherokee) a huge respect for all that is living and all that is not. The game you hunt falls into this. Which meant that you wanted to give that animal the respect and honor of a quick death. Therefore you wouldagain not take a lameshot or a questionable shot, because that would not be fulfilling the deer's honor. Ifthe animal suffered, you suffered.Honor was theonly way, for that was themeasure of a man. After a good shot and aquick deathyou thanked the animal for its sacrifice and gave it the honor of a last meal, generally a sprig in the deer's mouth. You would celebrate the animal at yearly festivals, and talk of how a particular deer evaded you for days, much like hunting camp today.

Now I come to the section of your quote that I put into bold. We live in a dangerous time and our tradition is facing extinction due to liberal hippie huggers. If not for the deer's sake, or the trouble of having to finish it off, think about the words that you just put on the internet for all to read. If we are going to win our battle, unfortunetly we have to play the game. We have to be careful at what we say and not give them any more fuel for their fire. I won't criticize the way you hunt, but personally I see it as less than honorable. Doing the humane thing, and always ensuring your shot is practicing general hunting safety, and not being reckless.

Let me put it to you in terms you may better understand. If not for the deer, if not for trying not to feed the fire, think about this. You shoot your deer, a trophy in ever sense of the word,and you miss. That deer is now running wounded. He runs for miles until he's on somebody else's property. That person drops him. That deer now belongs to him. A beautiful animal that could have been yours, and you let him slip through your fingers because you had something to prove. Or try this one, the US faces another disaster and people are forced to hunt for food for a while. Because you've accepted that 30# is more than enough, and don't see fit to better your hunting skill or ability, you keep missing deer after deer. Now what?

Ok, very long and drawn out. My point is not to accept anything less than perfection. I'm not talking some draw weight set forth by any one person. I'm talking about something safe, something smart, and something comfortable. If your draw weight is low, practice until you can pull more. If your draw weight is very high, practice lowering it sometimes to become accustomed to the different feels. You never know when you might have to use someone else's bow.

Also, as a side note, we do not use the same tools, although they may look the same or do the same things as the natives of their time, so they make a bad comparison when talking about draw weights today. That was my point in the history lesson. They were experts in their time, and we are not.

I am not starting a fight, nor am I looking for one, so choose carefully in your reply. I am but a well of information at your disposal, choose to use it as you wish.

You put alot of thought into it. Im only 2 % Cherokee, which is not alot. I have my own religion, my way of living, my way of surviving, my way of getting food. I set certain rules for myself and certain ways of hunting that don't envolve the ways of the Indians. Yes,I do respect my prey, but by wounding an animal for your food is more important than complaining about how the animal feels. Thankfull you shall be for the kill, but wether you wound it or make a clean kill, it's still killing it and getting food so you can wake up in the morning and say, " Wow, I am alive, I can get food for myself and I know I can". It's all in food. Food is everything. The one thing that drives all humans and creatures on this earth is to search and hunt for food. Food should be everyone's most important thing because without it, you can't complain about the way you kill a deer, if it was humane or not, or watch T.V or play games, talk to friends, go to the movies. Food Food Food. Doesn't matter how you kill, you need FOOD. It's the most damn and simple thing I should ever tell anyone. And by the way I use everything on the body of my kill, which is even more respect I show for the food nature has allowed me to take. I respect Indians, I respect you, I respect eveyone, but nothing else matters but food and so you should do all you can to get it even if it means killing a damnbuffalo with a baseball bat ot hammer. You guys are blinded and your grip on reality is screwed up, or most of you. Whats more important, taking the life of an animal for food in any possible way, or feeling sorrow for an animal because you let it suffer???

All that I am saying mostly, and I took a lot of words and time to say it, is that we now live in a world of comfort, supply, and ease. With all of the tools we have at our disposal, why would we not do the practical thing?

Most of us aren't going to starve to death if we miss that deer, and we've abandonned most of our primordial natures. We are not as driven by food as we once were because it is so readily available at every turn. We're not forced to hunt anymore, for most of us its a choice and an enjoyment, so therefore we're not forced to use crude techniques.

We use carbon arrows, compound bows, waxed string, heavy caliber semi-auto guns for our ease. So why not take a good shot and only have to do it once? You'll save your arrows and your bullets and potentially a lot more dragging. Plus, what if your shot goes through the belly? You just spoiled your meat.

If this were a doomsday situation you bet your butt I'd be out there with every weapon I own and I'd sure as heck guarantee my shot placement. Gets me home to my family quicker so I'm not tracking through the night. It just seems illogical to me to needlessly wound an animal when we have so much at our disposal to quickly and efficiently dispatch an animal.

When we grow in our skills, we grow as a person.

I too use everything on my animals. I have a mass collection of skins, bones, sinew, teeth, jaws, ect.

thats fine. i was just saying alot of people in different countries still need to hunt for food or they will starve. America is lucky. i mean im not saying i have to hunt for food, i have a home and compouter and big tv. But i still believe in hunting for food and doin whatever you can to get it.

lol someone got killed with a history lesson lol very nice huntgirl you have dun it again.

I think what it comes down to is pulls what u can pull with confort, and if it isnt enough to you, slighty take your draw weight up until u can pull what u feel comfy hunting with, if your Putting the shots right where they need to be and think u can take animals cleanly with it ( and its legal ) then thats fine too. All that said this argument was not over what is ethical and what is better and blah blah, i simply said 30 would kill a mature whitetail when it comes down to it.

Now i want to say sumthing about this

"Also, obsidian is MUCH sharper than steel will ever be."

Im no Expert, so im not saying your wrong, because your more than likley right here, but, if you sharpen steel on a diamond Wheel the right way and polish it, its VERY VERY sharp, i mean scary sharp...and is not choppy lookin at all
Most people mess up on the steel and turn the edges over while sharpenin, but its so tiny u cant really see it, and still seems very sharp.
Again "obsidian" may be much sharpen than even the best sharpened steel (?), but steel can bealot sharper than the average shaving sharp. That being said MOST people arent goin through that trouble with their broadheads..

This is not an attack or an agrument, this is just what i have to say

I'm not talking knives, I'm talking surgeon's scalpels. Just a lil' tidbit