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just had to add this, don' t forget, when i said 100 acres wasn' t big enough to help, that was if a large enough adjacent area wasn' t being hunted. also, how can you argue with the math for the ratio? also, this just in from keith mccaffery, biologist from the wisconsin dnr, " It is virtually impossible to have a prehunt adult sex ratio greater
than 2:1, even under heavy buck exploitation, so long as you have decent
recruitment of young deer (one fawn/doe or better). High buck mortality
(>75%) and low recruitment (<25% yearling does) would indicate a sex ratio
greater than 3:1. " what i am getting at is this, if so many well respected biologists that i have been in contact with, who do this for a living, say that the ratio can' t be as bad as you described,brian, than how do you explain their numbers and results? what do they have to gain by lying?

Just wanted to comment on 2 areas.

1st, in town here, we average 15' of snow, which translates into around a 3' snow base mid-winter to late winter. On an average winter, we lose 50% of our fawns. Actually, 180" is not that bad for our deer herd. 15 miles NE we average close to 25' , and the deer leave entirely to the south. The deer simply can' t survive. At my house, 16 miles south, we average aroun 10' , with around a 30" snowbase. The deer still leave, but don' t experience a significat loss unless the winter is over 2.5 to 3 months(meaning the time the deer are in the yards), with total snowfall and temps being the deciding factor of time in the yards. So in a nutshell, unless you get over 10' of snow, and experience a significant snowbase with coresponding temps for over 2.5 to 3 months, winter kill isn' t that bad, especially in Canada. I' m sure this would vary with a herd in Georgia.

2nd.

QDM is, and only is:
1.Adequate buck age structure

2.Populations maintained at or below the carrying capacity of the land

3.Adequate sex ratios

Those are the 3 founding biologically proven principles of health in a deer herd(also, not coincidently, in elk, moose, most big game, fish, etc.). Why should it matter if you are on private or public land? Shouldn' t ALL herds be managed for overall health of the habitat and herd? That' s all QDM is. Are we saying we should expect less, just because it' s public land?

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan

Well put Jeff.

We all have our own theories asociated with QDM. Many are correct. Many times we have the same goal but with different venues of attaining that goal.

When we do our part, no matter if it is 100 acres or 100,000 acres, we make a difference in managment. The biggest problem facing us today is the lack of education in not just the cumptive user but he non-cumpstive user.

Biologist are not always correct. While working on the C-Ranch (located next to the Welder Wildlife Refuge) here in S. Texas (75+ P&Y in 5 years) a biologist suggested killing off 300 does, in order to get to his 1:1.5 or 1:2 ratio. Granted we were on 14,000 acres, and there were a lot of does. This was a proven mistake. After running several hundred bow hunters a year ,a drought and an explosion in the coyote population - you could not find a doe. You might sit in your blind and see 4 bucks and no does.

As long as management programs are backed with scientific knowledge using pop. ecology, habitat selection and managment etc..should produce desirable results.

Biologists learn the same as the rest of us - scientific method combined with trial and error.

NorthJeff - Under those types of conditions where you live, how are you approaching your doe harvest (aggressive, moderate or conservative)? Do you modify your harvest goals based on the severity of the previous winter?

Vt, I' m not a biologist, but I can show you the virtually impossible.... if you care to travel south. In VA and WV....no doubt. In WV I wouldn' t doubt 10:1 ratios in many areas. In VA, it' s probably better than WV, but if it' s virutally impossible to have this...why does the VA DNR allow hunters to kill over 100 DOES per season, per hunter? That seems odd to me, if the pop is already in good balance.

Dan O....if it was me in your situation, I think I might let some folks hunt does....and be very specific as to the fact that they can ONLY harvest does...period. Your kindof in a tough situation.

Sling,

My population numbers are taken from roughly 700-800 photos each year, with 3 seperate photo stations that vary, over a 8 to 10 month period(varied by winter migration-when the deer leave, so do the cameras). Individual does and their fawns are very easy to distinguish after studying the photos. In fact, you find the same does, with the same fawns, on the same food plots, at just about the same time of day. We have around 20-25 deer per square mile in my area, of which the area can support around 35-40(summer-range).

Doe harvest, right now, is only a minor part of my overall QDM plan. In fact, it still isn' t even a part, YET, until my numbers begin to get close to my carrying capacity.

In my photos I can easily estimate the number of does and fawns using my 130 acres on a daily basis. At the same time my does and fawns are not using my property exclusively on a daily basis, and most are likely drawn from various bedding areas around the property within a 1/8 mile from the property line, giving me about a 1/2 section to work with for numbers.

I had a good conversations with John Ozoga a while back to help shed some light on the subject. Here are some of the things we talked about.

*My population numbers were less than 5 deer in 1999, and up to around 20 last year(including bucks,does,fawns), so numbers have not been a concern(just the lack of) up until now.

*Around here, lactation rates can be very misleading, depending upon the previous winter. For example, in 2001, I had 1 fawn for 6 mature does after an extremely harsh 2000-2001 winter. During the harsh winters, all or most of the fawns can be aborted.

*We lose 50% of our fawns, on an average winter, up to 90% during severe winters, including many yearlings, as in 2000-2001.

*I' ve had 6 mature does the past 2 years, but this year my doe numbers will rise with the addition of a few yearling does that made it through the lighter winter.

*Last year I photographed 6 bucks of 2.5 or older, and 1 spike yearling buck, for 7 bucks. Granted the bucks are tougher to photograph due to the does taking over the food plots for the majority of the growing season.

*Mature does are likely to NEVER be a part of my management plan, and if they are, it will be very limited.

*Number of fawns can indeed be a strong indication of desired harvest. Last year, I had 8 fawns for 6 does. Typically this would be an indication of needed harvest-of 2 or 3 fawns, but my number of does had not reached my carrying capacity yet, so no need. This year, if my doe population is around 10, with another strong number of fawns, it will be finally time to harvest some does, but doe fawns would be most appropriate, as the population numbers will be only on the verge of carrying capacity, not exceeding yet. For example, 10 is probably the magic number of does using the property. If I had the same 6 mature does back from last year, plus the addition of 4 yearlings, I' d be at capacity. If I harvest 2 mature does, and we had a sever winter, I could easily left with 4 does next year!, a drastic, unecessary reduction. On the other hand, I harvest a couple of doe fawns, and after a severe winter I may be left with my original " 6" .

*It became much clearer after talking to John. Shoot for a base doe pop around 10, and harvest depending upon number of fawns. Once I' m at my base, no or low fawns=no doe harvest....fawns of 1:1 or higher=shoot a couple of fawns. I already have an 8 point rule, which protects up to 90% of the yearling bucks(In fact, we don' t shoot any yearlings.)

*Last year, although my bucks are living in a large area, the buck:doe ratio was about 1:1, with 1:2 being acceptable in my area, so not a concern.

Managing this northern habitat is rough, and most likely different than 99% of the rest of the country, but I' m lucky to have someone like John around who understands the area.


Dan' s area could be pretty similiar to mine.


__________________
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan

Northjeff; I' m at latitude 45 on the other side of Lake Huron from you. We get the snow dumped on from the westerlies off of Lake Huron and the easterlies from Georgian Bay. Our snowfall is in your range (15 ft on average). I believe that my capacity on the property should be about what you' re saying based on the feeding on my hay field. If I follow your last advise I should be leaving the does until I reach the 10 level. As long as " my" deer return from the wintering yards.

VT: The winter yard is about 3 miles north. It is huntable but it is also too poachable. The game warden knows that there are organized groups of 5-10 people living off venison. They go so far as to post a radio operator near his house before the others go out. He said it starts in August when the spots come off the fawns. They call them roasters because they fit in the bbq.

I have the situation that you described. Roughly 1500 acres with only myself and a few guests hunting. They were a little pissed of when all we saw were does and they didn' t have a tag. On the other hand I' m sure a fair bit of poaching goes on when I' m not there during the week. So now all I need to do is find the crop(s) that will hold more deer. They underutilize the clover and alfalfa fields at present so I may have to try the grain crop/corn route.

I already run a fruit farm at home as a hobby. I' ve planted 12 stategically located apples and pears last fall on the hunting property but I don' t want to jump in hog wild until I see how the trees handle hardiness zone 5B winters. Even then I' ve already got 10 acres of wild apples on the property. They get hit very heavily.

All said; this is a great discussion but I' m back to square one. I had no rubs last year. With the does that I watched on the property there should have been at least one young buck in to see them.

Dan O.

hey dan, i agree, great talk, but still hasn' t got your problem solved. seems like you should have had something with bone on it' s head come by last year. what do your neighbors see, any bucks around on their land? it sounds like you should be hunting a dream area, low pressure, good feed, etc. have you wondered around, after the season is done, in the woods, to try to locate them, or are your seasons late enough, like ours, that the start to yard up before the seasons are even done? wv, i was only quoting what i have available from state biologists, including your own. as far as traveling south to see what you have, well, i used to live in lynchburg, work in south boston, which took me from martinsville, to richmond, to fredericksburg, to roanake, hot springs on the wv border, traveled back and forth, north and south to visit back in vermont, and basically hit a lot of the state through work and hunting( danville area). so, i think i have a pretty good idea of what the virginia herd is like. oh, also did night spotting there, when it was legal( is it still?). never saw the ratio that you claim to see, but then again, i did miss one or two towns along the way, lol. also, just went to the virginia home page, and i couldn' t see what the limits were, but the last i knew, 5?years ago, i think combined the limits were something like only seven, total, unless you got crop damage permits. somewhere, somebody is miscounting deer(misidentifing) the sex of the deer IF you have the situation you described, but, like you, i am not a biologist either, just a concrete worker, so what do i know?

VT...you have some good points, and I can understand why you would believe the biologist...they are supposed to be the authority on the subject. I don' t know a whole lot myself, I can only comment on what I' ve seen over the last 20 years of hunting in both states. As far as the herd in va and wv goes, it' s definitely overpopulated(at least in the areas I live and hunt---eastern panhandle of wv, and northern, north western, north central, and eastern va)....slick heads out the wazoo. The areas in southern, western, and south western va, (where you said you lived and frequented) are alot more in check...I agree with you on that. If you drew an imaginary line from va beach to richmond to winchester....everthing above the line is basically overpopulated big time, and the dnr knows it.

The va game laws allow 4 or 5 deer (depending on where you are hunting) with your regular license....then you can buy " bonus tags" at a cost of $12.50 for 2(antlerless only). You can kill 2 does per day...every day of the season (which is 3 months long in many areas, including archery and m/l) provided you have the tags. In fact...this year they opened the season up to buck or doe every day of the year....and extended the length in many areas as well.

In wv ....it' s not a problem to see 50-75 does in a day sometimes...with maybe a few bucks mixed in. We have been on a self imposed qdm plan on our property for the last 5 years, and the short of it is...we shoot as many does as we can...and only nice bucks. In 5 years on our property (about 1200 ac) things have really improved all around. We are now seeing many more bucks, older bucks, and fewer does as well. The health of the overall herd seems to be improving as well. However, it' s still not uncommon to do a small deer drive and see 50+ does come running by...and only a couple bucks mixed in. For many years in wv the bucks got killed by the bushel load...and no one shot does hardly at all. The wv dnr has increased the doe seasons dramatically over the last 4 years...going from a 3 day season all the way to a 4 week season, and from 1 tag to as many as 5. It seems they too have realized the problem.

Anyhow, I just thought I' d comment on it...not trying to argue whether it' s possible or not.