s.texas, ya can' t cull what you don' t have, now can you? up north, our entire deer population is less than what you guys take each year, they just don' t exist in the numbers that you have. so, why cull what you don' t have? you can' t improve a herd that way.

correct philosiphy - just the wrong verbiage

Vtrulrss,
That state biologist may know what isn' t possible in Virginia may not be the case elsewhere. A few years ago on my small acreage, I had 3 doe groups totalling at leat 18. I harvested one buck and saw only 2 others. During the rut, the does left my timber and went to the bucks on other areas. That made my ratio 1-6. I estimate a ratio now of about 1-4 which is still high.
Russ

In the last 20 years we have had in excess of 15 - 20 doe' s per buck ratio... VT, I don' t see where Dan says he has a limited deer herd... ie small. We have seen QDM, not QDMA produce great results in small areas, less than 100 acres. Saftey area' s are many times the missing link with the reduction of doe' s. Believe me, we are around this stuff fairly extensive. S Texas, we cull deer to manage them when the doe ratio is out of whack. Texas is a prime example of doe reduction to increase buck size and class. Texas, Pennsylvania, Michigan are all high deer population number states, but for different reasons. Michigan has made major reductions, not always welcome, and has kinda dropped the ball with antlerless permits. We cull way too many button bucks but are seeing bigger bucks in the smaller managed zones.

VT; I' m trying to find out if it' s possible to get the buck to doe ratio closer to 1:1. I estimate (based on sightings, prints, trails etc.) that the population is 25+ deer per sq. mile. In the last 3 years I have sighted 50+ deer. Of those only 2 were bucks and they were button bucks. As I said before the outdoor education center across the road (320 acres) doesn' t allow hunting, the farmer to the west (100 acres) doesn' t allow hunting (cattle) and the farmer to the north 400 acres doesn' t allow hunting (cattle). To the east is approx. 500 of cattail swamp (not hunted)and a lake. My 100 acres along with the outdoor ed center and the cattle farmers are all wedged between 3 lakes. When you get out of this local area it' s wide open hunting with a lot of poaching going on near the deer yards to the north.

By sightings at my home near Niagara Falls I come out much closer to a 1: or 3 ratio based on sightings. Very few people hunt the Bruce Trail (Niagara Escarpment).

Deer will never stay on the property year round. They have thousands of acres of tight cedars that they need to make it through the snowy winters. To point out how few bucks are around I didn' t even find a rub last year.

Yhe Provincial government is trying to keep the deer population as large as possible by maximizing the number of does. Maybe QDM as practiced in the south won' t work here.

Dan O.

Harvst managment for any big game is the art of melding the objectivity of wildlife science (which i dwell in) and the subjectivity of public wants for the attainment of a management goal. Sociological as well as biological data. Harvest programs should remain dynamic and always subject to a changing environment.

For Dan O' s area - management goals should be set for several years as a yearly or changing managment can cause drastic changes in your managemnt direction.

The aspects of SSC (sociological carrying capacity) and BCC (bilogical carrying capicity) I' m sure have been looked at by bilogist in your area. Recrational land owners, non-hunters, hunters, conservationists etc...must all be involved when making managment decisions. These may be aspects of many managment pratices we dont understand or get involved with.

Darn...this is more confusing than it ought to be.






PS
You cull chickens and you manage deer.

S. Texas; could you elaborate what SCC is? BCC is easy but I don' t understand what you mean by SCC. Is it population limitation because the old buck just gets too tuckered out?

Dan O.

Hello Dan -

I' ve been reading the post the last couple weeks - I had trouble accessing the site from home - but have that fixed now.

You are in a bit of a pinch - it would be Nice if the Province would micro-manage a bit more - probably not too far off in the future.

3ft snow/year sounds pretty light - so the weather isn' t likely the deciding factor on deer population. From your posts, you personally and your area has good forage ( alfalfa, clover, apples, etc - Plus browse) - so thats not it - Canada in general has " light hunting preessure" as far as I know - So what is keeping you deer at 25 deer/square mile??? is it poaching? Maybe Predation by coyotes &/or bear?


Whatever it is - might really justify limited doe harvest - It really sounds alot like our situation was in Central NY in the 1970s - when the herd was just starting to grow fast. Of course that changed in the 1990s.


We estimate 40 deer/square mile - min., - and average 10-12 ft of snow/year where I am. This year - 153" - but winterkill still appears to be less than 10%. Our range is Predominatly abandoned and active Dairy Farm land.


Personally, your QDM philosophy should be to harvest older bucks when possible - and keep tabs on your government' s short & long term goals regarding deer harvest.

good luck

BCC - This is in theory that a population (deer for ie.) will grow until it reachs it biological carrying capacity. BCC is not practically measured annually, but over a period of years, and is kept at an optimum in mid curve.

For example - If the BCC on a select propert is 100 deer. The best stradegy for maximum harvest is to maintain say 50-60 deer. Close as possible to midpoint of the growth curve. Things such as severe weather, poaching, hunting etc. all play factors in the bcc.

SCC - This is the maximum wildlife population acceptabe to people. Deer and farmers, deer and cars, deer and aunt maybellines rose garden. Thses are all factors of scc. SCC is one attribute to managemnt that in some cases requires educatinal efforts.

Dan O. - have you approached your neighboring land owners with an objective managment program. Offer to do surveys, micro habitat management, etc...
Get your neighbors involved......as well as educated.

farm hunter; sorry for confusing you. I have 3' of snow where I live. My hunting property has about 15' of snow a year. Winter is a major factor on deer survival in that area.

S. Texas; I was picturing SCC as deer society effects. Th way you' ve described it SCC has no effect in the area. Deer hunting is a money maker for the area due to out of towners. They want the largest deer population that they can have. The outdoor education center would never allow hunting. The neighbour to the north is too interested in putting in a quarry and beef farming. He wants to show that the area is poor for wildlife to justify the quarry.

I think lunchbucket had the right idea. I' ll keep planting my property (trees and food plots but baiting may be required as an extra intcement. Also I may as well invite those who can hunt does if I can' t that particular year.

Dan O.l