The Last Straw
12-09-2002, 11:15 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burleson TX USA
Posts: 15
The Last Straw
I am posting my first message and posting it here because if you guys are looking at "Quality Deer Management" you must be interested in it. I have a small place (60 acres) about an hour North of Fort Worth and at first it seems perfect for hunting. It is at the end of a private dirt road with very little exposure to a county road, heavily wooded, very thick brush in between huge pecan, walnut and oak trees that would take 3 guys to reach around, 50% of the border is a deep wide creek, surrounded by open pasture land and its just what I took 5 years looking for when searching for the perfect hunting place. We have worked hard to clear a few shooting lanes and stand sites and have planted small food plots in the 100 yard by 15 yard wide lanes. There are mornings that my wife and I sit on the back porch having cofee and watch as many as 15 deer in the back yard of this place. We have also been surrounded by 2 flocks of Turkey with about 20 -30 birds in each flock. I know that sounds great and it is except for one thing. The damn yahoo neighbors. I've owned this place 5 years and havent shot anything yet. I've seen some nice young bucks that look like they have real potential. The best to date was a 2-3 year old with horns outside his ears, good mass and medium tine length with palmation between his right side G2 and G3. My son and I watched him from above at 30 yards for 20 minutes one morning and he looked great but I knew being that young he had so much more to grow and could really be a trophy in a few more years so we pssed on him. The only time we ever see him now is in our minds eye. Thats the BEST we've seen and to us thats not a shooter. I know that a shooter is different things to different people but the bottom line for us is we will shoot NO babies! If they are not a mature 5 or 6 year old deer we let them walk. We do the same when we go other places to hunt as we do on our own land. Mature doesnt neccessarily mean Boone and Crockett size antlers it just means the age age where the maximum potential has been reached. So all these years we've been passing young deer after young deer and rarely seeing any 2 or 3 year olds only to have the neighbors shoot the first thing that jumps the fence that has antler breaking thru the skin. I confirmed this this season and it was the last straw. I always hear many shots when I'm out there but a few weeks ago I heard a shot so close it just had to be on my place. I got out of the stand and went to look for whoever was on my place with the intent of shooting them or holding them for the game warden (shooting deer on private property without permission is a felony in Texas). I found the guy but he was on the his side of the creek. I called out to him and we talked a bit. First off I might as well have been talking to Jethro Bodine. It soon became apparent that he and all his friends and family were shooting every deer regardless of age or size that crossed the creek. I mentioned that I would like to start a co op to agree on harvest numbers and ages and he said they didnt need that and had no problem shooting all the deer they wanted. Needless to say I walked back to the ranch house sick. All that said I have decided to spend the money to put up an 8 foot high game proof fence on my place. I'd rather not do this but I have few alternatives. The fence will cost considerably less than having to buy the 300 acres across the creek to get rid of the hillbillies. And still 360 acres is not enough space to truely controll a deer herd.Don't get me wrong I'm as red as the next guy it just really put me off when the neighbor said "We're seeing all kinds of bucks over here I even saw one with 5 points" . I know trophies are in the eye of the beholder but they obviosly have much lower standards than I am willing to shoot. So what does everybody think? I know there is a lot of antifence sentiment out there but what else would you do? I have had it. <font size=4></font id=size4>
12-09-2002, 03:45 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1,382
RE: The Last Straw
WholeHog, welcome to the board, glad to have another Texan here. Ok, I'll chip in my 2 cents and honest opinion here.
I'm really sorry to hear what's happening around you. As I was reading your story I was thinking that you need to talk to your neighbors about QDM......you beat me to it. You also got the worst possible reponse from probably the worst possible neighbor. However, don't feel alone those types are everywhere and many of them are on this web site. I myself am somewhat of a "trophy hunter". I may not have killed and true "trophies" yet but I'm proud of what I've killed especially for it to have come from East Tx, which isn't know for deer much over 100 class B&C. That being said, I'm willing to wait on the big ones, letting the young ones walk. I haven't killed a buck since '98 because the mature big boy hasn't presented himself. Am I crazy? Probably but I get no joy from killing a young immature buck anymore. If I want meat, I kill a doe and at the same time help out our deer herd.
Ok, now I've tooted my horn and told you what I do, I think you would be wasting your time high fencing your place. You said you own 60 acres and I don't believe that is enough land to maintain very many deer at all. Being only 60 acres would also rule out any chance what-so-ever of having a fair chase hunt. Now if you are wanting to raise a few deer as pets, like some people would cows.....go for it. I'm not a big fan of high fence hunting but at the same time I'm not against it as long as the area fenced is big enough and the deer numbers are proportionate to the number of acres. Fair chase can definatly be maintained on a high fenced place but it can also easily be lost, especially on 60 acres. I personally don't see any point in high fencing anything under a couple thousand acres but that is just MY opinion.
If you neighbors won't cooperate then you are in a tuff situation and probably never will grow the mature deer that you would like. If you are really interested in hunting and practicing QDM, I'd suggest getting a lease on your own or with some other guys who have similar feelings. Lease enough land 600-1,000 and you can then start really controlling some deer. Or you can lease a smaller tract but make sure the neighbors have the same goal as you do. Honestly, it is all up to you and I know that you are up against a wall and I feel sorry for you. However, I'm just afraid that 60 acres isn't enough land to do what you want to do.
Just my thoughts, please don't take offense because I don't mean any. Welcome again to the board!
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Hunting the Piney Woods of Deep East Texas.
I'm really sorry to hear what's happening around you. As I was reading your story I was thinking that you need to talk to your neighbors about QDM......you beat me to it. You also got the worst possible reponse from probably the worst possible neighbor. However, don't feel alone those types are everywhere and many of them are on this web site. I myself am somewhat of a "trophy hunter". I may not have killed and true "trophies" yet but I'm proud of what I've killed especially for it to have come from East Tx, which isn't know for deer much over 100 class B&C. That being said, I'm willing to wait on the big ones, letting the young ones walk. I haven't killed a buck since '98 because the mature big boy hasn't presented himself. Am I crazy? Probably but I get no joy from killing a young immature buck anymore. If I want meat, I kill a doe and at the same time help out our deer herd.
Ok, now I've tooted my horn and told you what I do, I think you would be wasting your time high fencing your place. You said you own 60 acres and I don't believe that is enough land to maintain very many deer at all. Being only 60 acres would also rule out any chance what-so-ever of having a fair chase hunt. Now if you are wanting to raise a few deer as pets, like some people would cows.....go for it. I'm not a big fan of high fence hunting but at the same time I'm not against it as long as the area fenced is big enough and the deer numbers are proportionate to the number of acres. Fair chase can definatly be maintained on a high fenced place but it can also easily be lost, especially on 60 acres. I personally don't see any point in high fencing anything under a couple thousand acres but that is just MY opinion.
If you neighbors won't cooperate then you are in a tuff situation and probably never will grow the mature deer that you would like. If you are really interested in hunting and practicing QDM, I'd suggest getting a lease on your own or with some other guys who have similar feelings. Lease enough land 600-1,000 and you can then start really controlling some deer. Or you can lease a smaller tract but make sure the neighbors have the same goal as you do. Honestly, it is all up to you and I know that you are up against a wall and I feel sorry for you. However, I'm just afraid that 60 acres isn't enough land to do what you want to do.
Just my thoughts, please don't take offense because I don't mean any. Welcome again to the board!
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Hunting the Piney Woods of Deep East Texas.
12-09-2002, 10:01 PM
#4
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: chiefland Florida USA
Posts: 5,417
RE: The Last Straw
you are fighting a loseing battle.there is no way to control a deer herd with the small amount of land you have.I feel for you and your problem,but the land owners next door have the same rights you do. you want shoot the young bucks,so you are rasing them for the neighbors.
there is really no answer to the problem unless you can purchase all the land around you. a lot of $$$$ involved.you may have to lower your standers or watch the young bucks jump the creek ans or fence and never come back.
good luck in what ever you do.keep us posted.<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>
I am not a hunter I am a whitetail population reduction specialest
remember keep your back to the sun, your knife sharp, and your powder dry.
there is really no answer to the problem unless you can purchase all the land around you. a lot of $$$$ involved.you may have to lower your standers or watch the young bucks jump the creek ans or fence and never come back.
good luck in what ever you do.keep us posted.<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>
I am not a hunter I am a whitetail population reduction specialest
remember keep your back to the sun, your knife sharp, and your powder dry.
12-09-2002, 10:31 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burleson TX USA
Posts: 15
RE: The Last Straw
Hey guys,
Thanks for the replys so far. I agree with both of you and have already tried the advice you both gave. I used to be on a lease and thats the reason I got my own place. I decided I'd rather have my own place no matter how small than deal with people who profess to be trophy hunters until the sun comes up opening day. You wouldnt believe it. A buddy and I got on a lease a few years ago that sounded and looked good. It was 2500 acres on the river at Graham up by Possum Kingdom. When we got on we were told it was a trophy hunting lease and that the other 8 hunters were all trophy minded as we were. Opening morning came and I saw a nearly tame yearling buck deer whose rack was smaller than my two hands put together with fingers stretched out. He just stood about 25 yards away from me for what seemed like a long time and looked at me. He wasnt scared he was just curious. At lunch everybody was back in camp telling what they saw and I made the mistake of saying what I saw and where....you guessed it. When I got into camp that evening that same buck was hanging from the meat pole. I was mad and went over to the fire and the group around it and asked who shot it. "I did" said a nice guy who got up and came over and shook my hand while introducing himself. I told him I didnt remember meeting him or seeing his name on the lease and he said " Oh, I'm not on the lease I'm Joes brother in law and I'm just out for opening weekend." I decided then and there that I would have my own place even if I could only afford a half acre. I am a working man not rich by any standard but Thank God I'm able to afford the little place I have. I wish I had the $$$$$$ ya'll were talking about to have my own big place but until then I can afford a fence. My place is the thickest I've seen and I think I can keep the fair chase in it if I leave it as thick as possible. I just can't stomach feeding and passing up deer for somebody who has no inkling of management to shoot at 6 months old.
Thanks for the replys so far. I agree with both of you and have already tried the advice you both gave. I used to be on a lease and thats the reason I got my own place. I decided I'd rather have my own place no matter how small than deal with people who profess to be trophy hunters until the sun comes up opening day. You wouldnt believe it. A buddy and I got on a lease a few years ago that sounded and looked good. It was 2500 acres on the river at Graham up by Possum Kingdom. When we got on we were told it was a trophy hunting lease and that the other 8 hunters were all trophy minded as we were. Opening morning came and I saw a nearly tame yearling buck deer whose rack was smaller than my two hands put together with fingers stretched out. He just stood about 25 yards away from me for what seemed like a long time and looked at me. He wasnt scared he was just curious. At lunch everybody was back in camp telling what they saw and I made the mistake of saying what I saw and where....you guessed it. When I got into camp that evening that same buck was hanging from the meat pole. I was mad and went over to the fire and the group around it and asked who shot it. "I did" said a nice guy who got up and came over and shook my hand while introducing himself. I told him I didnt remember meeting him or seeing his name on the lease and he said " Oh, I'm not on the lease I'm Joes brother in law and I'm just out for opening weekend." I decided then and there that I would have my own place even if I could only afford a half acre. I am a working man not rich by any standard but Thank God I'm able to afford the little place I have. I wish I had the $$$$$$ ya'll were talking about to have my own big place but until then I can afford a fence. My place is the thickest I've seen and I think I can keep the fair chase in it if I leave it as thick as possible. I just can't stomach feeding and passing up deer for somebody who has no inkling of management to shoot at 6 months old.
12-13-2002, 04:10 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Harford Co Maryland USA
Posts: 4,966
RE: The Last Straw
I understand completely how you feel. I'm in a similar situation, but I have far less land than you--only 14 acres. The yahoo "neighbors" don't even live here. They come up here during the season and shoot at everything brown. They'll even shoot fawns. I still pass on the small deer hoping against hope that they'll make it. The trouble with this is that the few that do escape me too!
I passed a 17 yard bowshot a few years ago on a HUGE buck on my property because the angle was too steep quartering towards me. The yahoo's wasted him during muzzleloader season and he was found rotting in a creek later. Someone cut off the antlers before I heard about it. Eventually I'd like to move to a place where I don't have any nearby neighbors, but who knows if that'll happen.
Today's small bucks are tomorrow's trophies.
I passed a 17 yard bowshot a few years ago on a HUGE buck on my property because the angle was too steep quartering towards me. The yahoo's wasted him during muzzleloader season and he was found rotting in a creek later. Someone cut off the antlers before I heard about it. Eventually I'd like to move to a place where I don't have any nearby neighbors, but who knows if that'll happen.
Today's small bucks are tomorrow's trophies.
12-14-2002, 08:23 AM
#7
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Livonia Mi USA
Posts: 551
RE: The Last Straw
We have clients that practice the Quality management on less than a few acres... Just start. If you have a heavily wooded/marsh area or create a "safe zone" you will be supprised how many deer will congregate. An area of one hundred feet sq. that is not molested will become a magnet. Think of the small honey holes in the middle of a field. Many times less than a few hundred ft. sq. yet often times we hear, and have experienced, the "Big Boy" leaping out of one when we walk by. One of our clients has less than 3 acres outside Detroit and gets 135-165 class bucks every season. Set the safe zone up, do a planting/lick and stay out.
We feel there is too much emphasis on large tracts of property and this is not a motivating factor to a small unit manager to enhance a wildlife management area. This school of thought may well turn the small unit manager into another marauder and add to the problem. Everytime you put your sights on an animal you are acting as a game manager. If we don't motivate the small unit personal we sure won't motivate the larger unit personal. And the problem snowballs, " I can't so I won't, I'll just harvest, there's no use trying".
Get to know your neighbors and don't come at them in a way that is argumentative. Leave some lititure with them, heck, maybe buy them some subsctiptions to some of the periodicals and introduce them to this and other quality sites, cheap method of indoctrination and non confrontational. We don't know anyone that returns a free subscription to a hunting magazine... Approach them with a childish " guess what I found" attitude and they'll think it's their idea. You get more fly's with honey than vinager.
Get the doe's and yearling doe fawns in line with the bucks, usually 2-3:1 and stop taking the bucks that are under 3.5 yr and anything under a 8 pt with a spread of less than 16 inches. The argument that " if I don't take him someone else will" is selfish. I can guarantee you that if you take him he will never get bigger. There are no certainties in life... Just follow good management and you WILL see an improvement!!! Be the leader, not the mob!!! Be an answer, not a question. Plant an acre and change YOUR state.
Romans 10:9 Psalms 42
We feel there is too much emphasis on large tracts of property and this is not a motivating factor to a small unit manager to enhance a wildlife management area. This school of thought may well turn the small unit manager into another marauder and add to the problem. Everytime you put your sights on an animal you are acting as a game manager. If we don't motivate the small unit personal we sure won't motivate the larger unit personal. And the problem snowballs, " I can't so I won't, I'll just harvest, there's no use trying".
Get to know your neighbors and don't come at them in a way that is argumentative. Leave some lititure with them, heck, maybe buy them some subsctiptions to some of the periodicals and introduce them to this and other quality sites, cheap method of indoctrination and non confrontational. We don't know anyone that returns a free subscription to a hunting magazine... Approach them with a childish " guess what I found" attitude and they'll think it's their idea. You get more fly's with honey than vinager.
Get the doe's and yearling doe fawns in line with the bucks, usually 2-3:1 and stop taking the bucks that are under 3.5 yr and anything under a 8 pt with a spread of less than 16 inches. The argument that " if I don't take him someone else will" is selfish. I can guarantee you that if you take him he will never get bigger. There are no certainties in life... Just follow good management and you WILL see an improvement!!! Be the leader, not the mob!!! Be an answer, not a question. Plant an acre and change YOUR state.
Romans 10:9 Psalms 42
12-14-2002, 04:01 PM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ferry Township, Michigan United States
Posts: 165
RE: The Last Straw
Hey Lunchbucket, that was a terrific statement you made. I think your reply was right on the button and I thank you for it. terry<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>
LIVE FREE OR DIE
LIVE FREE OR DIE
12-16-2002, 04:29 PM
#10
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ferry Township, Michigan United States
Posts: 165
RE: The Last Straw
Artist, I see that this is your second post on this board. Your comments are sure to draw attention, if that's what you are looking for. You seem critical of Wholehog. I don't believe he would shoot anyone, that's my opinion. I think he is justifiably upset. I think he should try and educate his neighbors of his intent. Tact and diplomacy work, sometimes. If they trespass he should call the sheriff. Free range deer belong to those who hunt them legally. I may feed them and try to give them a good habitat but---I don't own them. Welcome to the board. terry<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>
LIVE FREE OR DIE
LIVE FREE OR DIE