Tigerfan

That may be your opinion but, he is right when talking about deer management. If you live in an area that is high in deer population and you are wanting to grow healthy mature bucks and have a healthy herd you HAVE to harvest the doe's. As hunters we are the main source in population control. Example, my son killed a 2 1/2 yo buck that weighed 150 pounds at my bro in law's place. They saw 21 deer in less than 2 hours. They do not practice any management when it comes to does. If you want to shoot one you can but it isn't encouraged. My lease is different, we had several 2 1/2 yo killed and none were less than 7 points and weighed between 160-170. We do have a management program and we encourage everyone to harvest at least 2 does a year. I my self have harvested 9 in the last 3 seasons from the same area and I still see deer almost every hunt. I see several bucks every year but I won't shoot a buck unless he will go on my wall. I have seen a couple that would but haven't been able to close the deal for various reasons. Before I started shooting so many doe's, I never saw any bucks that would go on my wall. I am a meat hunter but, I would love to kill a mature buck. I would rather shoot a doe for my meat than a small buck. If you ask any deer biologist that is worth his weight he will tell you exactly what Bob S said.

QDM has so few supporters because there are hunters that refuse to shoot a doe but will shoot every spike they see. That mindset is old and worthless IMO.

You act as though Bob S is just shooting them and letting them lay. I highly doubt that he is doing that. By what he said he is showing me that his is very mature and well educated on deer management. You may want to look into that for yourself. You can contact Dr James "Dr Deer" Kroll or pick up some of his books. He is probly the best and most respected wildlife biologist in the states. He can fill you in on what his research has discovered.

[email protected]

http://www2.sfasu.edu/forestry/faculty/kroll/deer.html

bawanajim

I would love to here a biologist say that this is a good idea for hunters to follow as Bob so eloquently stated.

"kill every doe that stands still long enough to put cross hairs on. "

Anyone that made it out of the dark ages understands the need to shoot some does.
As I have stated before it is the "I'm a better hunter than you cause I killed more does than you" attitude that comes for the horn porn clan that pisses me off. I don't hunt for anyones atta boys.
Deer hunting is a sport that should be enjoyable to all not a classified assassination of does so that you can get your picture in the paper with your trophy buck!
Buy some land and do with it what you want but done expect your neighbors to do as you think is best .

Tigerfan

What else needs to be said? Does it really matter why it is done? So if I shoot a doe I am addicted to horns? I really don't see how that is possible. I shot a doe but, I am a horn hunter.

I agree with this statement 100%

I never said that I was a better hunter than anyone.

Question for you and everyone else that has or will respond to this thread.

If standing side by side would you kill the following?

1 1/2 doe or 1 1/2 5point.

2 1/2 doe or 2 1/2 7 point with a 12 in spread and short tynes

3 1/2 doe or 3 1/2 8 or 10 point with a nice rack that would score 120-140

I will answer first

Doe
Doe
Buck

bawanajim

It does matter why it is done. If you shoot every doe you see because your pals think you da man for doing it.Its wrong!
If you shoot a doe because you are a deer hunter and are doe hunting thats different.Thats deer hunting !
Killing does like you would Norway rats is wrong ,if you lack any respect for deer quit hunting them.
And by your next statement you answered your own question by telling us you would shoot the largest buck!You are a horn hunter.

Neither
neither
Buck

Tigerfan

You are incorrect and by a large margin. Do you know how many bucks I have killed in 20 years of hunting? A grand total of 5. I shot more does that that 2 seasons ago. I saw a total of 15 different bucks this year and only put the scope on 1 of them. He was a mature 3 to 4 1/2 yo that would have scored close to 140. If that makes me a horn hunter then either you have a messed up view of a horn hunter or I am one. If I am one then I wish that every horn hunter was close to that. But sadly they are not. Sadly they would have shot all of the bucks and never pulled the trigger on the does in my questions.

By your answers you are only a horn hunter and could care less about proper deer management. You have not reguard for heard health and have no respect for the animal you are telling me that I should stop hunting.

Depending on habitat and deer heard numbers will determine how many deer you see. in Northwest Louisiana where I hunt we see about 10-15% of our heard whether that be does or bucks. In this case most biologists will tell you to shoot as many does as you can. In Northeast Louisiana where the deer population is dense they will tell you to only shoot a certain amount of does in order to keep the population at a safe rate.

I have been to many different seminars over the last 10 years, most years I have gone to more than 1 or 2. I read anything that I can get my hands on when it comes to deer management or wildlife management because I have a passion for it. To say that I do not respect the animal is an insult to what I believe. After every deer that I have ever killed I have a moment that I either stand or kneel by the deer and thank God for giving me this time and to ALLOW me to harvest this animal because that is my right per the book of Acts. Do not under estimate my love for this or my passion. I could care less what my buddies at the camp say when I ride up with any animal or with nothing. I do not hunt because I think it is cool or to say that I killed more or bigger anything than you or the next guy. I do not manage my hunting club a certain way because my neighbor is doing it, I manage my 6k acres the way that I do because that is what I believe and what research has show to be the very best for PROPER management.

bawanajim

I hunt because I love to. I own my own land and that allows me to manage it as I see fit. I do not hunt deer to just kill some thing ,I have not shoot a doe in 15 yearsas it would be as much an accomplishment to me as poisoning mice.
I spend most of three months deer hunting in two states with a bow,a shotgun and a rifle. I don't shoot small bucks as for the same reason I don't kill does. I have reached a maturity level that I don't have to kill any deer to enjoy may time in the woods. I have enough friends with kids that are learning to hunt and to them shooting any deer is a great deer I will not shame them into my beliefs as what they should shoot if fat 4 pt tickles them then thats great if they shoot a button buck they should be just as proud. I have one rule and that is you can only shoot one deer a day and thats your trophy for the day.They are all special.

In past statements I was not singling you out as an individual as I was using the term "You" in a wrong way .I meant not offense to you personally.How any one hunts is their own business but the pressure some use to shame what other shoot has gotten out of hand.I find Q.D.M. does more to divide hunters than it does good.
I'm a buck hunter not a trophy buck hunter just a buck hunter.Here's last years buck shot the last day of our season.In two foot of snow.

Tigerfan

No offense was taken, I promise you. I apologize if I may have seemed irrate, I wasn't in the least. I truly enjoy discussing things like this, it is a debate that will never end and there are many different beliefs. I am right for what I do and you are right for what you do. We have several kids that hunt our lease and most all of them harvest a deer every year, if they hunt. We have a lot of deer in the area that I hunt and through proper management we have gotten an older, healthier herd. I respect where you are coming from, I may not agree with you but, I do respect your view. I like you do not like it when someone tells me I should do it a different way because of this or that. I am happy with the results that I am getting and wish that my neighbors would do like we are. I have spoken to them on different occasions and some have agreed and others said that it wasn't for them. I tell them no problem but, I will be sure to talk to them next year. We laugh and carry on. what Bob S said may have sounded crude to some hunters and not to others. He could have worded it differently but, I think he is right for his area. Michigan has one of the highest populations od Whitetails in the us and they need to take some out. If not disease will take over and cause all types of havoc.

Like I said no hard feelings from this way. Good luck and Happy Hunting.

North Texan

You guys make it sound like horn hunting is a bad thing?

As for what we do, we usually do a helicopter survery every couple of years, and spotlight surveys a couple times a year. Our buck:doe ratio has been WAY out of whack, so all hunters must fill all their doe tags. Way too many hunters don't shoot does, and as a result, we've inherited part of the problem. Ratios started at about 10:1, and have gone down to about 4:1. The goal is 1:1. When the ratio was way off, we started seeing some genetic anomalies we wouldn't be seeing with a proper buck:doe ratio. When the ratio is that far off, you have spikes and other deer that nature would never have allowed to reproduce breeding does. With a proper buck:doe ratio, the good bucks would be able to claim all breeding age does and prevent this. However, with so few bucks and so many does, management bucks were allowed to reproduce.

The deer population here is often at carrying capacity, if not above, so it takes a fairly large annual harvest to keep it in check. This last year, when things turned off dry, fawn survival was almost non-existent. The harvest was not high enough for the conditions. Our county only allows hunters 1 buck and2 antlerless. There is talk of moving us to a 2 buck county, with one tag specifically for management bucks. I am all for that. I would also like to see us increased to a 4 or 5 doe county. We still have too many hunters killing only bucks, and the ones that would kill does need to be able to kill more.

bawanajim

Here in PA the state is huge and diverse. Our game commission says that if we kill all the does we will have big bucks to replace them.
The thing is we have a silly thing called winter here. Right now we have between two & three feet of snow.How many fawns do you think will be born this spring?
We have battles going on with private land being posted and state land being pounded buy those that have no land of their own.
It is the doe slayers against the rest of us.I see no need to play god and eliminate the whitetail deer from my woods so I don't shoot them.But I am more than made up for because some townhouse dwelling TV watching arm chair biologist can buy all the doe tags he wants for sixdollars apiece and shoot every one he sees .What a plan huh?
Of course you have to throw in the poachers that take more deer than hunters doand you have a disaster just waiting to happen.

npaden

jim,

In Texas there are many hunters that feel as you seem to that shooting a doe is beneath them and as you so eloquently put it "I have not shoot a doe in 15 yearsas it would be as much an accomplishment to me as poisoning mice."

If every hunter chose to never shoot a doe soon you would end up with some of the same issues that they have in Texas. Over population! Except in the north country over populated deer get to die of starvation during the cold winters. A big winter die offgets the population back to where it should be. Here they just continue to over populate and you end up with almost a sub-species of white tail deer in central Texas where a decent buck field dresses at 100lbs.

To me hunters that refuse to shoot does are responsible for the over population that we currently have. In the North the does that you pass up and feel good about yourself for not killing them like a mouse may end up starving to death from overpopulation during the next hard winter.

That's my 2 cents.