ethical hunting
 

sitting around camp talking and relaxing with a few cocktails the following discussion arose:
you wound a deer and dont find it until after legal shooting hours. the deer is not dead but laying there bleeding but it’s obvious it will be awhile before it dies. it’s illegal here in illinois to carry any other weapon other than whats legal to hunt with, a shotgun muzzleloader etc. its now after legal shooting hours, so what do you do? stand there til it dies, come back in morning and hope its still there, or shoot it? the most humane thing to do, put it out its misery.

Ive been meaning to look into this. I had one last year that was still alive when I found it. Shot it about a half hour before last shooting time gave him about an hour then found him about 100 yard from the shot still alive and had to give him more time when I could have just finished the job. A gave him another hour and he was dead when I came back.

I suspect its not allowed because they fear people would take advantage of it and claim they were finishing animals off to get away with poaching.

I have carried an ax in such situations.

I'd shoot it or cut the throat if I could get up to it. I wouldn't leave it to suffer and if I got a ticket for it I'd take my chances in court. Kind of a grey area but suffering is never a good thing.

a few times over the years we have slit throats instead of suffer, be careful

Cutting the throat is a good solution in some cases. Ive done it quite a few times.

My scenario last year where I was wishing I could just shoot him again was a liver shot. I could sneak into 20 feet or so but I didn't feel like I could get much closer without pushing him or I would have cut his throat.

I think we all sort of know the RIGHT answer here and the legal answer here
best advice is do what you feel needed doing and keep your mouth shut! LOL

Using an ax or knife would be illegal too. Taking game by illegal means.

This has always been a tough spot to find oneself in. In my best opinion a call should be made to the area's CPO. I know he can dispatch the animal but don't know if he can or would grant a hunter permission to do it, with him on scene or not.

I'm with Flags, sometimes common sense has to prevail.

This is where it can pay off to be on good terms with the local wardens. it never hurts to have people knowing you're honest and want to do the right thing.


Maybe a phone call telling them what's up and what you should do? :confused0024:


I'd like to see Oldtimr's thoughts on this one. I believe he was a game warden.

I won't speak for working officers , but when I was still on the job I had a couple of occasions where people tracking a deer found it alive , left someone there and called me, I met them and went to the deer with them and I put the animal down for them and helped them get it out of the woods. I could not in good conscience tell them to kill the animal not knowing them or the circumstances. Luckily I had a base radio so my wife could call me if an emergency phone call came in. This is an ethical quandary and the best advice I can give is call the PGC if it happens to you and be guided by what they say. If someone reports late shooting and an officer responds and finds the person who shot late coming out of the woods or field with a deer the officer may make a decision you would't like.

Of course he would, you can't just have people shooting at night and claiming the deer was already hit. That opens up a whole host of problems.

Unfortunately I think the solution is making better shots, Had I hit my deer in the lungs rather than the liver I wouldn't had had any problems.

making better shots YES solves issue, but nothing in life is perfect

and NOT bashing or looking to picks a fight or debate, just sharing my experience's here
but IF a warden gets called to a LATE Shot,
unless he SEE"S it happen, its an opinion , if pressed to court I would think
there are very few wardens to each county, the odd's are NOT the best one would be near by in all honesty all the more so in peak deer season when they IMO are pretty busy
I am NOT suggesting anyone break the law here
we all owe it to the animal to kill it as fast and cleanly as possible
in my area, I hear countless shots in the dark, both moring and after sunset
I question all them as possible cheaters, but I know of NO one near me that got caught and fined for doing so
idiots here get caught jack lighting from trucks 100 times more often\ STLL 100% wrong

but like I said, you can call, and if told NO help is near and then you do it??
bigger issue I think than if you maybe just do what needs to be done and keep your mouth shut
tag deer and be legal as can be
things happen the real world that issue's like I can see popping up, and poor outcome in Both calling and NOT calling

the 3 instances I have had in the past 7 yrs calling PA game wardens to come dispatch , one rabid fox, , one car hit bear, and a crippled deer
ALL wardens said they be there in 20+30 minutes which ended up in two, with more calls in and every time told ON MY WAY, and then never showing up at all, and the bear, well, that warden did get here, took 4 hrs and then he missed the bear at about 20 ft?
SO< help< ain;t always coming from a phone call
Oldtimr, you might have been a great warden and really cared for your area, but its NOT that way all over PA, and ALL 3 of these cases above happened in different districts, NEVER the same warden!
and I have a few more encounters with PA wardens of like results( I always tired to do right and get help and STILL do)
I AIN"T bashing them I am GLAD we have them, just NOT all had the drive you seemed to for the job and the wildlife!
I wish they did, but??

mrbb, Generally there will be a blood trail at least for a while when the deer was first shot, that can be found and back tracked to try to verify what a person tells the officer. Officers have to make decisions, that is what they get paid to do, some times it isn't satisfactory to those affected. No system is perfect and sometimes something else comes up where the officer will make a decision on which is more important to be handled right now but in my experience wcos will try to respond to situations like the OP discusses if they can. I know a guy who was trying to cut the throat of a wounded buck because he didn't want to shoot it again. The buck thrashed around and tried to get up while the guy was trying to cut the throat. The guy wound up with a severely cut hand from either the antlers or a hoof and a hand that didn't work right for quite a while. Deer are dangerous animals when they are hurt, they can go from docile to an explosion of movement is a second. The only reason I threw into this post was because it was requested by a member and there is no other answer I could give except the one I gave.

oldtimr, I tend to agree with you, and was just stating NOT all wardens handle things the same way, two sides to every coin
following a blood trail back however has little to do with a kill from 15 minutes PAST shooting light to an hr
be super hard to tell the different in time frame of a dead deer, all the more so if it take a while to drag it out and then back track
I went thru ACT 120 police training, so I have some honest aspect into policing side of things
yes discretion is used a lot in many ways, as it should be, most law breakers are lairs, so there had to be some story of a BS tool for officers to use(normally that tool is between the officers ears(brain) LOL)
I am sure we all know in life at times there is a GREY area we tend to end up in now and then, we ALL don't follow every speed limit 100% of the time, doesn't mean we get a ticket every time we go over it, ONLY when caught red handed more or less

I am NOT telling anyone to break any laws, we are all mostly adult here, right and wrong isn;t always the same as legal all the time?
judgement calls to each and there own here?

Haven't faced this situation, fortunately. Have had others tell me this. One friend told me the deer was found by water and they drowned it, shedding tears while doing so.

A few things I like about German hunting regulations. They have a list of things that are labeled "duty". They are some things a hunter is required to do. One is putting a severely injured animal out of it's misery. I've put down numerous Deer and Hogs along the highway.

A woman, really attractive, dressed in a business suite/skirt/high heals, hit a Doe with her high end car on a mountain road. I stopped behind her, put up my flashing light and walked up to see what was wrong. She walked up and half squatted near the Doe's head. That Doe heaved a couple of deep breaths, thrashed her front legs, caught that woman by the ankles and she face planted into the highway without getting her arms up to break the fall any, It really messed her up, I could hear the splat from thirty feet. Broke numerous bones in her face, flattened her nose, knocked her out cold. I thought she was going to die, she was having real trouble breathing with all the blood flowing from her broken nose.

The least painful lessons your learn is watching somebody else screw up.

Thanks, Oldtimr. That seems very wise.

I shoot them, call them in and go about my business...I also carry not only my hunting rifle but a pistol as well when tracking, bears have gotten mighty thick in my area of eastern NC...If the warden wants to give me a ticket so be it, I'm a grown man and will pay it and continue on...In over 50 years of hunting and having tracked hundreds of deer, this has come up maybe 4-5 times...

don't forget here folks, IF you cut its throat drown it, or other wise kill it after hours its STILL an illegal kill
so, the above are suggestion to STILL Breaking the game laws in most all states I know of
shooting it MIGHT be the most human way to kill it, but the SHOT /sound is the give away here
to each there own on how they wish to FINISH off a animal
but IF I HAD to be in this situation, I would vote for the fastest ethical way of killing it
IF I GOT caught, I would stand by my decision to do so
TRYING to do it quietly and getting caught might look more to the eye's of the law as you were trying NOT to get caught ( admission of guilt falls into this logic) and not so much doing the right thing, to end the suffering, when the GUN shot might be a faster more human way of doing so, over drowning, stabling??)
we live in a crazy world when things go to court and idiots are on the jury to decide things ?
LOTS of anti hunters out there as is
just food for thought here!

I don't think anybody is going to think you were out poaching deer in the dark with a knife.

That would depend on where you hunt. In CO where I grew up the regs clearly state you must make every effort to recover a wounded animal. So killing one after legal shooting hours by a method other than shooting is probably covered by that requirement. It is the act of shooting AKA wounding that was hunting, not ending the suffering.

Also in TX where I now live I seriously doubt if a game warden would cite you for using a knife on a legally shot animal to end the suffering. I've met and talked to a lot of wardens down here and I just don't see that happening. I may be wrong but I don't think so.

Want to be totally safe?

Call your sheriff and or warden and explain the situation. I'd call the sheriff first as they'd get there quicker.

JW

Not in PA, the Sheriffs do not go out and enforce the law, they are officers of the court, serve papers and transport prisoners, they also do not have the authority to enforce the Game Code. I know that is not the Norm but in PA Sheriffs do not patrol or do general law enforcement

Unless you really botch it its likely the deer will be dead by the time you can get somebody there. In my case I gave the deer an extra hour and he was dead. No way I could have walked to somewhere to get phone service, made the call,waited for a CO to arrive, and walked back to where the deer was in an hour and the deer had been dead quite a while before I got back so we are talking probably an hour and a half of suffering from shot to death and probably a half hour between the time I found him and could have shot him again and the time he died.

here in PA NO law enforcement can dispatch a animal without MAYBE permission from a game warden, or they can also be fined for an illegal kill
don't laugh, Game wardens in PA have arrested cops before!
when I had both a car hit bear and a deer end up on my land, and a rabid fox and hours went by from the time I called warden(several, times and was always told ON MY WAY be there soon)
I called local cops and even a state trooper I am friends with, and a RETIRED game warden that lived a few house away from me
and all would NOT shoot any of the animals due to FEAR of actions taken by Game dept here!(and i AKSED it the warden would grant these folks permission to dispatch animal too, and they said NO, would not allow anyone but THEM to make the call, even a retired warden?)
SO< PA plays by different rules , than EVERY other state I have hunted in, about 15+ by now, as I always try to get to know local wardens every where I hunt, FOR reasons like this and others
its ONLY in PA< I have had BAD experiences too with any game wardens, sad as its my home state
never been found doing anything wrong, heck even sold hunting lic for a long time and the hassled the heck out me there too, even took me to court a few times CLAIMING I sold lic wrong, and when things went to court it was THEM who didn;t know there own rules, , the judge actually told them if they tried to take me to court AGAIN(5 yrs in a row) without a legal charge he was going to fine them!
as apparently they didn;t read there own rule book before trying to fine me and my shop!
Like I said, NOT all PA game wardens were as good as you oldtimir
I appreciate the good one's but sadly in PA< I have far too many experiences with bad one's and a clean record too boot, I take pride in that as well!

PA ain't the whole country. I've hunted Potter County PA. Your post alluded that you claim was nationwide. Sorry, but it simply isn't. Where I hunt, I could take the shot or cut the throat and not worry about getting pinched by the game warden.

The morning of November 5th of this year we were headed out of town for the second day of our gun season and came across a nice buck laying on the sidewalk with a broken leg and broken back. We weren't anywhere close to out of town yet. We used a hammer to put the deer out of its misery and called the local cops and told them where the deer was and that we ended its suffering. The made the call and deputy who lived only a short distance from where we found the deer grabbed the call on his way to work and checked things out. He nodded his head and asked if we wanted a possession permit, to which we said yes. He wrote the permit while we dressed the deer and loaded it into the truck. He wished us luck that day and bid us adieu. Law enforcement is usually pretty decent about unusual circumstances, but game wardens can be fickle. I say call cops or a sherriff's department first, then a co if the others can't help out.

PSP are by law in the Game Code allowed to enforce the game Code and they may and do put down injured deer. This is who the law allows to enforce the Game code:
§ 131.3. Enforcement.

In addition to Wildlife Conservation Officers or Deputy Wildlife Conservation Officers, the Director designates and empowers the following persons to enforce the act and this part while acting within the scope of their employment and jurisdiction.

(1) Pennsylvania State Police.

(2) Pennsylvania Waterways Conservation Officers.

(3) Pennsylvania Deputy Waterways Conservation Officers.

(4) Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources personnel with enforcement powers.

In addition to the above the Commission may approve municipal police to enforce the game Code as well as federal agencies with law enforcement power. However, unless things have changed since I retired they have not authorized any police departments to do enforcement and Federal agents for US F&W assigned to PA are made Deputy WCOs.

Y'all are sure focusing on PA. In the OP he never said where this happened but in an earlier post he said something about IL and PA laws mean nothing in other places like IL. None of us except the OP knows the locality where this happened.

For the ones focusing on using a knife after legal hours, the wording here in IL, where the OP is talking about, is legal SHOOTING hours. So if you follow the letter of the law, using a knife after dark to dispatch an injured animal is perfectly legal. I've dispatched a few whitetail and hogs with a knife but it sure isn't the safest thing in the world to do.

I don't think thee is a definitive answer to this question because as is apparent there as so many different laws depending on the state a person is hunting is. I suppose a question such as to op should be predicated on the state the op is from and asking the question about.

I never said things were state wide with my post,(even in you quoting my words) I said MOST states I know of, and each should look into things in there own state
as laws are NOT the same every where
I am talking PA< mostly due to its where I live and have most knowledge, I am NOT a game warden, nor a lawyer
I am giving OPINIONS< as most here are that don't have law degree's in this stuff!

if you do something and don't feel bad it is ethical.....to you, your ethics may be different, or possibly non-existent your ethics are established by how you were taught, question is if its ethical by your standards is it still legal?
RR

a late shot on a wounded deer would equal 2 or more bullet holes, correct, if a late shot is reported and it was a late kill would there be 2 bullet holes?
RR

Sometime what's legal and what's "Right" aren't the same thing. Also, peoples ethics aren't always the same. I know what I'd do.


The best advice probably came from OT. Call your game commission and get permission. They likely won't give it. But they may come out and meet you and help. They might not do that though either depending on what else is going on at the time.


I make every effort to recover my game. If that costs me sometime, so be it.


-Jake

I have another twist on this problem. I'm currently sitting at the house waiting after finding what might be a deer I shot. I thought I hit her good but found a live deer. She was in a big group when I shot her and I think she is dead and it's one of the fawns bedded with her but Im afraid to get any closer to tell for sure what's going on. I can just see eyes and head in thick brush. Like I said I think it's a fawn laying there with her but I sure can't tell for sure. Gonna go back out in about 20 more minutes and take another look. She is only about 50 yards from the shot.

You know what they say about opinions
"opinions are like a_ _ h_ _ _s" we all have one"
To everyone reading this thread, enough is enough, don't you think we're beating a dead deer (couldn't resist).

I've read enough and what I'm about to say is as we say "the pot calling the kettle black"
Practice, Practice, Practice and more ethical shots. Believe you me I've made plenty of poor shots, and continue to practice patience and making better more ethical shots.
Good luck in the future.

Central PA Sportsman, rockport didn't say he made a bad shot. He actually felt he made a good shot. He is only concerned because he trailed it to a live deer. And he is more than likely correct in his assumption that it is a youngling laying beside it's mother. I've seen that happen quite a few times actually rockport. You gave it some time. If it was even a decent shot then either that was her laying and expiring or it was a youngling laying beside her. I'd say with our coyote problem we have around here I'd be getting back to that spot and finding out one way or the other.