Deer drives
 

All the posts about head/neck shots vs the vitals got me thinking. If you consider a neck/head shot unethical, what are your thoughts on deer drives or shooting at a deer that is running or trotting? Where I'm from, deer drives are common practice and rarely do you get shots at a deer standing broadside.

To each his own since I prefer a one on one with the deer and don't hunt anywhere that you need to have a drive. IMHO If a guy knows what he's doing it's not unethical to shoot at a deer trotting at close range, but I can't see it at full speed or at any distance. That's just me since I prefer to hunt where I have scouted and know the deer movements such that a good standing shot is presented 100% of the time when one comes along unaware I'm waiting in ambush.

I grew up learning to hunt in CO. Glassing, spot and stalk and still hunting were what we used. Deer drives simply aren't done out there. I have nothing against them but in my mind the shooter needs to be very careful about what shot they take and what shot they pass on. And I'm betting that most deer taken on drives are dropped with chest shots, not neck or head shots. There is a reason, bigger target. Doesn't matter if a deer is standing still or moving, the chest will always be a bigger target. It is what it is.

They drive a lot in Pa. Went on a few and for some odd reason they always posted me as a shooter :D As far as your question goes, flat out running, no, not an ethical shot to take. Trotting at say 50-70 yards, yep if you know your rifle well and know the lead of your particular rifle/cartridge combo.

There's nothing wrong with shooting running / trotting deer in certain circumstances. I hunt deer with buckshot on an extremely thick property. At any given spot I might have a couple very small shooting lanes out to about 20-25 yards max. If I relied on deer stopping in those lanes I wouldn't shoot many deer.

Been on them and have killed deer. More like slow calculated pushes. They deer I have shot were shoulder/chest shots not head.

Deer drives are definitely a regional thing. In PA we do them every year, Ohio too. I've shot many deer on the trot/run. The key to good deer drives is knowing your escape routes and setting up on them. If you're pretty sure where the deer will go when pushed you can usually put your standers right on top of them.


For you western guys.... I've often wondered why they don't push out the creek bottoms etc... seems like good areas to push.


-Jake

I look at a controlled push as a few guys slowly moving and frequently stopping almost like a stalk, toward one or a few set shooters waiting on deer encouraged to move towards or past them. These deer are likely to move a bit and stand and look back.

I look at drives as a group or line of pushers not concerned with how much noise they are making and maybe even intentionally making noise to get deer out in front of them to run towards or past set shooters. I don't like them, do them or endorse this.

Why? It's too dangerous. I don't believe that the rule of, "Be sure of your target and what is beyond it." can be followed when you are making fast offhand shots at a deer who has a constant change of what is beyond it.

When I was a kid growing up in mid Michigan I was usually a driver on those types of hunts. All the neighbors would gather Thanksgiving afternoon, I don't know if it was a under stood thing to drive or if it was a word of mouth thing because not many had a telephone back then.


They would drive down the road to a farm that had a swampy brush filled area every one got out of the car/trucks an some one who seemed to be the leader set the standers, then the kids and some of the adults were drivers. You would pretty much keep your mouth shut and sort of sneak along with the wind blowing the scent to the deer. several times a buck would get shot trying to sneak past the drivers. Also many times the deer did not come tearing out of those swampy area until they hit the open then the afterburners would kick in.


Can't say when they stopped doing those drives for sure but I know I never went on one again after 1964.
Never really liked them my self.


I like my unmolested deer relaxed and walking thru my woods looking for a hot doe. No iffy shots taken. Know where every one else is too.


:D Al

Deer drives don't bother me, it's just another social event meant to put meat in the freezer. Base here does them twice a season put on by a hunt club and the shooters are Service Members, drivers are the club members.

Many here that do deer drives put emphasis on hitting the largest target (chest) of the deer and many spend the week prior to a drive at the skeet range practicing.

I see it no different then when we run rabbits with dogs, shooting at flying fowl, or running deer with dogs. You practice, practice, and practice for the type of hunting you are going to be doing. If you can only shoot at a target sitting perfectly still then we don't want you out there.

Where I hunt we put on drives all the time and I have shot a lot of deer from them. Every deer I have taken from a drive has either been standing still looking behind it or simply walking away from the drive. A good drive is not a loud fast operation, it is actually a walk in the woods moving deer in the direction you want them to go towards hunters who are waiting for them. You don't need big groups of people either to have effective drives, we often do it with two or three people towards one or two hunters. We know how the deer move on the property when they are disturbed and where they hole up on the property on the property around ours after the shooting starts. We usually don't try to move deer until late afternoon, those who have shot a deer will move deer towards those who have not. We only have 5 people on the property hunting, 6 if my grandson hunts with me. I do not want to be involved in the large raucous, loud large groups of hunters hooping and hollering running deer at mock speed through the trees and people emptying their rifles as they shoot and hope between the trees.

I appreciate the feedback. Our group is 10-12 guys, and we typically have 3-4 guys push and the rest block, depending on where we are hunting. I'm from a part of Illinois that isn't flat and we use the rolling terrain to our advantage when placing blockers. More times then not, the blockers are on the other side of a hill next to the timber/draw we are pushing and the backstop to any shot would be the side of the hill. I estimate 75% of our shots taken are at deer on the move that aren't necessarily a "perfect shot." None of us are what I would consider expert marksmen. I've never considered, and still don't consider, our style of hunting wrong or unethical. I just find it interesting that some people won't accept other people's style because it isn't what they are used to.

It becomes unethical if you are wounding running deer.

Its not for me. Ive done it but don't care for it, I like the long game.

I don't do it at all now because I have to manage bucks and you often just don't have time to identify bucks on drives.

I do setup to take advantage of other peoples mistakes sometimes which is really kind of the same concept I reckon.

"It becomes unethical if you are wounding running deer. "

Oh come on. Ends justify the means?? If we do what we always do, and don't wound a deer, it's ethical? But if we do what we always do, and wound a running deer, it's unethical?? Not buying that. That's no different than saying if you take head shots and kill 100% of the time, it's ethical. But if you take a head shot, and blow the jaw off, it's unethical. For the record, if I have a standing deer 20 yards away, I shoot at the vitals. But at the same time, I'm not opposed to a head shot either

"It becomes unethical if you are wounding running deer. "


My thought exactly!

You answered your last comment with your first sentence Jake! Guys don't go all the way out west to make deer drives, as it's just not done that way out there most of the time. Some guys will hunt canyon areas with heavy cover like that with one or two guys posted way ahead, but not very often.

Woodben, I stand by what I said. I have see way too much of the big drives running deer through the trees where hunters only get a small piece of the deer to shoot at as they run by. There are as many deer wounded as are killed, gut shot deer ham shot deer etc and the shooters don't even know they hit them. There are ways to move deer without moving them at mock speed where shoot them is a hail Mary. In my book of right and wrong, what I described is unethical. These are your words," I estimate 75% of our shots taken are at deer on the move that aren't necessarily a "perfect shot." None of us are what I would consider expert marksmen". Pretty hard not to say that kind of hunting is not using deer for target practice.

I was going to comment on your reply about "ethical/unethical" regarding the correct statements that I believe Oldtimr made in his posts, but after reading your final comment about not being opposed to taking a head shot it wouldn't be worth my time!!! Oldtimr especially hit the nail on the head about what you are doing with his last post quoting your comments that certainly don't show much respect for the animals we hunt! :rolleye0011::(

I think the point would probably be taken if worded better.

Things don't become unethical when you start wounding deer. About Every life long hard hunter has wounded deer.

To ethically drive deer you have to be willing to let them run by if its not right.

It becomes unethical when you start taking unethical shots whether you are driving deer or not.

I would agree with wooden the same actions don't become ethical/unethical based on the results but I also don't think that is what oldtmer probably meant.

Rock, you are right, I didn't mean an ethical act is based on the outcome. What you wrote below pretty much sums it up.


"To ethically drive deer you have to be willing to let them run by if its not right.
It becomes unethical when you start taking unethical shots whether you are driving deer or not".

We have done "slow pushes" for elk as well. The pusher walks with the wind at his back letting his scent drift ahead of him. Champlain Islander killed a nice 6x6 that I pushed to him. Worked out perfectly.

Yep, not reason to get them galloping past the standers when you can have them walk by.

Back in the old days in PA, there used to be a lot of those 10-20 man drives. No a days, we just do the occasional push. Maybe 6 guys total and we are just trying to gently nudge them. Most of the deer are actually shot by the standers as the deer try to sneak out the back door.

Very common in Wisconsin, also. We usually start doing a few drives about Thanksgiving, but the neighboring farmers start opening day of the 9 day gun season.

I grew up with it and see nothing wrong with it. Do I prefer that method? No, but it gets deer moving that you might not see otherwise.

I have doubts of its effectiveness
 

One, many hunters on a deer drive haven't practice the art often, together. It combines hunters of different abilities. All hunters are not the same. That's some of its weak points.
A deer drive doesn't count all deer; some escape through certain imperfections of the hunters. Perhaps the reason for a deer drive in the first place; the basic imperfection of the hunters.

Better hunting, I find, is when the deer is moving and the hunter is stone quiet. That's not synominous with a deer drive.

I think Rockport it the nail on the head with the ethical and unethical discussion.

It's one of those, if you never practice shooting out the 300 yards and then one day see a deer walking at that 300 mark and you decide to take a shot, you are making an unethical decision based on the hopes that it will work out. When you go to the range, practice, practice, and practice and you are comfortable shooting that range and your range time supports this, then you are making an ethical decision supported by your ability and experience.

Years ago here in Vt deer drives were pretty common. Knowing the way game moves in a piece of woods as well as using the wind to your advantage makes a controlled slow drive productive. Many of the deer we used to get were actually killed by the pushers as the deer tried to sneak out the back door. If the drive is done quietly by experienced still hunters standing or walking deer are often the result. When on public land deer are often moved by one party or another. The difference between that and a slow drive is that everyone is aware of the placement of the other hunters on a drive.

I used to do some deer drives with a couple friends. Back before I learned how to hunt.

Really! Then I guess you shouldr impart your superior knowledge to the rest of us ignorant people!

How do ya get around antler restrictions shooting at driven hell bent deer.


:D Al

I wouldn't know because I don't shoot at hell bent driven deer.

Guys, deer drives is just another tool in the tool kit. It has its place just like tree stand hunting and spot and stalk does. Enough with the childish comments already.

I'm going to put this out here for those interested to read. It's food for thought.

http://infonewsproworld.com/coroner-...-near-andrews/

To answer the Antler restriction question.... We drive in antler restriction areas... We only shoot if it's clearly a legal buck. That means some small 6 and 7s go by... Sometimes a couple people pass them and someone down the line has a better look at it and gets it. But only shoot if it's clearly a legal buck. Typically that means 8 or better. We chase allot of small bucks around that just go trotting right by. I passed a small buck a couple years back that I thought was a 4 point. It ran down past my cousin and he shot and I thought "Great, we just shot an illegal buck." When I walked down there he had a nice little 5 point on the ground. It came past him, stopped and looked at him and he saw it had a brow tine, making it legal. Same as any other type of hunting. If you can't verify it's legal, we don't shoot.


In our area it's a 3 point area. 3 points on one side makes it legal. This is easier than a 4 point or "3 up" area in my opinion. All you have to look for is a legal brow tine with a forked main beam. That's not usually too hard to tell if it's legal or not. In a 4 point or "3 up" area, you actually have to count to verify.
-Jake

Ethics is in the eye of the beholder. I always figured that if you don't think you're making a good shot, you probably aren't, so don't risk it.

Deer drives were a lot more popular years ago. They still do a lot of drives here in my part of PA where they have an extended doe season, by now the deer have been pretty pressured and don't move much unless it gets real cold and they are running out of food in the woods. Shotguns only in this part of the state. Never really cared for deer hunting this way, lots of walking and the deer never seem to use the same escape route twice.

I joined a club in Virginia this year, they drive deer using small hounds. Buckshot only rule in the county. I like this a lot more, the deer don't seem as spooked by the dogs, and you can hear the dogs yapping when they get on a deer. Haven't killed one yet this way, but looking forward to eventually knocking one down. Weather is usually warmer in Virginia then in PA during deer season as well. :D

Certain parts of the states it is the norm but since I mainly hunt public land with small parcels of land I can't stand it when people are doing the afternoon drives (walking up draws). Most of the time it ruins the stand hunting for the rest of us. If I grew up in an area where that was the only way I might think differently but shooting at a running big game animal just in my opinion is not showing that animal any respect. To each their own though

These post sure get interesting,some fellows need to get out and hunt other states so they can see how diversified this sport can be... :)

I've seen fellows blow shots at standing deer with high powered, scoped rifles, doesn't always matter if a deer is standing or not...

You fellows would go crazy if you moved to a dog hunting area, where they used shotguns and buckshot, but a ton of deer are killed that way and those fellows sure consider themselves deer hunters...It's a tradition, they feel they have a God given right to hunt that way...Dang if I will tell them that it's unethical to hunt that way, well, not to their face... LOL

As far as antler restrictions, we don't have them in NC and we basically have unlimited doe limits as well...

Friend of mine from Utah eventually married in VA. Hunted in his home state and continued out here, being a resident here. Couldn't stand hunting around dogs from the beginning but now gravitates toward them-using whatever clubs dogs that happen to show up. What a pity! Anything(legal) to get a deer on the table.

It is interesting how some animals somehow "deserve more respect" than others.