When I have a choice, I'll harvest a yearling Doe or two. If the Game Commission (or equivalent) specifies Bucks, I'll take a young one. When I take a Buck I try to judge it and harvest the Culls. I'm not always right, hard to tell what a young Buck is going to turn into in later years. Just the way I do it, probably some sort of ethics game I play on myself.

I get my satisfaction when I shoot and the Deer falls in a pile, instantly.

Bragging rights don't interest me much. I leave the big and trophy Bucks for those who actually give a darn. I have one buddy who has over two hundred trophies. Maybe he should go to Sweden and get a penis extension :)? I try not to judge, not everybody is the same or motivated by the same things.

I try to pick my shots to benefit the herd. Lame, injured, incest/deformed etc. I'll take a second year Buck still hanging around his mother before a trophy Buck from a neighboring lease.

Just opinion, but a yearling, two and a half year old Doe, neck shot that drops it in a pile, is about the best eating you are going to get, IMO.

A 5-6 year old Buck, in rut, that was shot, had an Adrenalin surge and ran a quarter of mile before going down is likely to be worse eating.

Side note, I've noticed women eating a rutty Buck full of Adrenalin, that just loved the flavor, ate until they popped and constantly commented on how good the meat was. Same meat I couldn't eat without a load of pepper and spices. May guess is it some sort of olfactory thing.

We do things differently here, we get a quota on a hunting lease and have months to fill that quota. They actually grade the Deer in the quota by sex, age, form, color, antlers etc. Some years it is young Deer heavy, some years Doe heavy, some years mature Buck heavy etc. The lease holders play a game and try to fudge, but it all works out in the long term, mostly. They tend to hunt the borders of the adjoining lease heavily, to try and increase their herd so they get a higher quota. Sure some lease holders try and fudge by under reporting their take, but it always comes back to bite them in the rear sooner or later. A trained eye from the county spends a few days on that lease and they can tell the general number and type of Deer there. They might find their quota halved the next year.

Maybe the Game Commission (or local equivalent) is slowly changing to the North European model in game management??

Always trying to shoot the biggest and best Bucks can't be good for the herd, long term.

I've passed on many Bucks, I always figure if I've scoped them I owned them. They often get taken by another hunter, all I can really do is follow my own conscience and ethics.

That is what stands out the most from the age management program I use, We really have a great diversity of age in the herd.

It also helps with blood lines as those young bucks disperse.

I just don't know how you execute that kind of plan on a large scale. Antler restriction may be the best realistic plan.

Surely the reasoning behind antler restrictions is age related. Obviously its not perfect though.

Well, why would only the age range of just the bucks be important if herd management is the objective? Not really arguing with you but I am not so sure that antler restrictions are age related. As you hint at, age of the deer really doesn't correlate to antler points. Also, wouldn't age of does be equally important?

In our state there is no more physical deer check in. All by phone. So, even with our new antler restrictions in place how does DNR monitor the age of the animals being harvested? If the antler restrictions were about age structure then you would think they would be monitoring it somehow to see if they (antler restrictions) were effective.

You can only do what is reasonable. Antler restriction will increase the average age.

People can't age deer but they can count to 8

Found this on one of Maryland's information pamphlets or PDF.

Deer Research and Data Use eer Research and Data Use
In 2013-2014, 4,384 deer were examined at
butcher shops across the state during the muzzleloader
and firearm seasons. At the butcher shops,
sex and age of the deer were determined and antler
measurements were recorded for bucks. Deer were
also checked for evidence of illness or disease.
The yearly sample of harvested deer provides
valuable information that is used to estimate deer
population numbers and to detect any changes in
the deer herd reproductive potential. It is also used
to monitor the overall health of deer and the effects
of changes to seasons and bag limits made to better
manage deer populations.
Staff and volunteers determine the age of each
deer by the wear and replacement of its teeth. As
young deer get older their milk teeth are replaced
with permanent teeth. As adult deer age, their
permanent teeth begin to wear down. This enables
biologists to reliably categorize deer as fawns (less
than one year old), yearlings (approximately 1.5
years old) or adults (two years and older). The
proportions of deer in each age class and their
gender are then used in reconstruction models
to develop and follow trends in the state’s deer
population.
The antler beam circumference measurements
of yearling male deer that are brought to butcher
shops are used as indicators of the reproductive
potential and health of the deer herd. Yearling
males in good habitat with moderate deer numbers
will have larger antler beam diameters than those
in higher populations or poorer habitat. Abundant
food and modest competition translates into
more energy available for antler growth. This is
most evident in the yearling age class. Trends in
these measurements can indicate deer herd overpopulation
and habitat degradation. Overall,
Maryland’s long-term data for these indicators
show healthy, productive deer populations across
the state (Table 9).
Deer at the butcher shops are also examined for
evidence of hemorrhagic disease; a virus spread
by biting midges. Hemorrhagic disease (HD), or
“Blue-tongue”, commonly appears in late summer
and early fall. Deer that have survived HD and
are harvested will exhibit hooves with sloughing
or peeling tissue. These deer are still suitable
for human consumption. HD occurs yearly in
Maryland, although it varies in intensity. The
results of this yearly, statewide examination are
reported to the Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife
Disease Study (SCWDS) in Athens, Georgia as
part of a nationwide survey. The HD study with
SCWDS is one of the oldest and most complete
nationwide wildlife disease investigations in the
country

Also would appear that your states antler restrictions seem to be rather liberal in that either a double fork horn or a single 3 point or above can be taking in conjunction with does throughout the season. If this is wrong please correct me.

If a state is using antler restrictions in conjunction with doe tags then age structure/ and population is probably the goal. If you had more sever antler restrictions but no doe tags then I would say trophy might be the more emphasis as this indicates they butchered a better well rounded plan for emphasis on older bucks which as you mentioned does the deer herd no good.

Most of these programs paint a management scheme with a broad brush.

Speaking of Doe, I wait a bit before I shoot, sometimes the fawns are late. A real downer when you shoot a Doe and she has milk. knowing there is a fawn out there someplace that is bound to starve to death or be eating by predators, isn't a good feeling.

If I see the same Doe two years in a row and she has no fawn, unless she has exceptional potential, I harvest her out. Some are poor mothers, others are barren.

It is sometimes really hard to tell the age of a Deer just by looking, especially after around three years old. All together we had near a hundred hours of classes trying to teach this, along with how to grade Deer. It is way easier if you know your hunting grounds well and have watched that Deer mature and know it's parentage. Experience is the only real teacher, that and counting teeth after they are dead (which can also be a bit iffy on occasion)..

In PA, while some people believe otherwise, antler restrictions along with a drastic reduction in the doe population was an attempt to do something about about the uneven age structure of the herd. About 60 percent of PA's buck were killed at a year and a half old, essentially yearlings. Most of the buck never made it beyond that. The biologists said it was unhealthy to continue to kill off the young buck so they initiated antler restrictions along with herd reduction which needed to be done decades ago, there were just too many deer and the habitat damage was evident if you knew how to see it. A by-product of the antler restrictions was larger rack buck were becoming more common each year and I have seen more big antlers in the last 7 or 8 years than I have in my entire 50 plus years of deer hunting. Some continue to say the restrictions are for trophy buck, that is false, allowing buck to live longer naturally produced bigger racks and bodies. I m not a big fan of antler restrictions but I support it because it is better for the herd in general and I don't target big buck anyway. There are states that manage for big racks but PA is not one of them. In some areas of the state the deer took a heavy hit in the population, that was needed. Slowly the PGC is allowing some areas to increase the population slowly as the habitat dictates, the goal is about a 50/50 sex ratio, I don't know if they will reach it, wildlife management is not an exact science, different areas require different techniques, wildlife for the most part is in constant flux, it has to be because there are too many conditions that cannot be controlled.

They examined 4% of the deer taken (95,863) and that doesn't count the ones that never make it to the butcher shop. I process my own deer as does my neighbor and many others. It just doesn't seem like a good way to determine age structure by only checking 4%. Maybe it is, I am not a biologist.

Instead of letting us shoot 4 bucks a year and having antler restrictions, why not limit the take to 1 or 2? Granted you need to shoot 2 does to get the bonus antlered stamp but I can still shoot 3 and no does need to be shot.

We can shoot unlimited does but there is no requirement to shoot does. If we are trying to manage herd size why not require 2 does before any buck?

It is not really that hard to determine an older doe from a younger one here in MD. I also wait to see if there are fawns but usually the fawns are not too cautious and their movement gives them away first.

Anyway, sorry for going on a MD tangent and taking the thread off track.

I'm certainly no biologist either, but from a statistical standpoint 4% is fairly decent sampling.. It's been a long time since I took statistics in college, but if I remember correctly they have a formula for the standard deviation based on the sample size...in other words, the larger the sample the smaller the standard deviation... The process is the same as you see with the different election polls that are taken...they sample a very small percentage of the voters, but the polls are usually fairly accurate.

I don't know for certain, but it is likely they have people doing a game census. Various methods, fly over IR photography, strip count, spot light count, harvested game inspection, even road kill statistics.

They do here and I imagine they use the same techniques in many other places. They combine the info and set quotas.

I'm an antler hunter, and I'm not the least bit ashamed to admit it. I have a small cow/calf herd at home and, at any given time, I have at least half a dozen steers in the fat lot. I do love to eat venison, but I certainly don't need the extra meat to survive. Not to mention that I can raise beef cheaper than I can harvest venison (once you calculate how much I've spent on deer stands, my bow, arrows, etc). To top it all off, if you add up all the time I waste on scouting, hanging stands, bow practice, and actually hunting, the cost of hunting gets even bigger considering that I could have spent that time working for a wage. Deer hunting is my commune with nature, and, God willing, my chance to catch up with a big mature buck. That being said, when I shoot a deer, it goes straight to the butcher shop. I make it a point to waste as little as possible. Then again, if my freezer is full of venison, I may not even bother filling a tag. If my freezer is running low, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a nice fat doe.

I normally try for a nice meat doe on private land first but this year i got lucky. I applied for a manged hunt that allows 2 doe and no buck. I could have applied for the other date which allowed 1 "any" and 1 doe.

This year i have no plans for a buck even on private land. 2 fat doe are plenty for me to eat and IMO they usually taste better.

Antlers come with meat

Its not Meat VS Antlers its Meat VS Meat and Antlers.

Everybody should be using the meat antlers or not. Those who don't are in a very different category.

Very well put.

I hunt to put meat in the freezer but I would never pass up a nice buck !

I think any animal you harvest is a trophy. I will not pass up a buck but I will not hold out all season long for one I'm after meat to put in the freezer that's all that really matters to me

Meat Vs Antlers.
 

I was lucky enough to be taught to hunt by both my grandfather and my father. They hunted together ever since my parents started dating. ( mothers Father). My grand father would say "its a buck shoot it, no matter what size the horns are". I assume that comes from the 1930s mentality of when he started hunting. My dad would let little bucks go he had already shot the little bucks. I spent a lot of time hunting with both and then I got into bow hunting when I got out of the Army.
Neither of my mentors bow hunted so I was never informed about it. But some of my army brothers were avid bow hunters and turned me on to it. I fell in love. I studied bow hunting gathered all the information I could and due to that became a better hunter.
I am not saying that I am right, None of us are, But in my opinion. If there is the biggest buck I have ever laid eyes on in front of me and a doe. I am taking the buck. If I have already harvested a buck that size I am smoking the doe. I have 0 racks hanging on the wall. My grandfather has many. My grand father has racks that sit in a box in the back room of my parents basement. The only thing they are good for is they intrigue my step son and son. They want to know more about hunting. Why we do it, when they can start, etc... For that I am grateful, my grand father is still with us at 95 and although his short term memories are fading, his long term is sharp as a tack. So they ask about all of his" trophies" and he tells them stories. The same ones I loved. Back on point here. I have killed many does, I am a meat eater. Some day I hope to bag a trophy. But I will take a mature deer either way. My trophies are the memories, the friendships formed, and the time to be in the woods and reflect on my life. Not to mention I love eating venison.
There is no right or wrong in meat vs antlers. Its isn't about that, at least for me and the people I hunt with. It is about our kids, our parents, friends and neighbors getting together enjoying the outdoors and each other. I can afford to buy food, I don't have to hunt to feed my family. I know people who can't, and are too disabled to hunt, so I try to feed them too. I am sure a lot of you are the same way. I mean come on , you can afford a computer to post on here right.

Pennsylvania in the early 2000s put antler restrictions in place and increased doe permits. It was very controversial, especially with hunters who saw fewer deer.

The management people said it was because the herd was too thick and actually consuming too much new growth. there was a lot of back and forth over it. (I was in seminary and hunting that state at the time).

I think they may have gone to another system since then.


I'm more of meat hunter myself. This year, I'm of a mind for holding for a good set of antlers. I didn't do the scouting I wanted, though, so we'll see. Backstraps are always tempting, too.

I love to hunt and fish. I hunt multiple species and harvest what I can. Do I like a big rack, heck yes. In my neck of the woods the deer population is low so any 130 class and above is something special. Do I apply for doe permits, of course I do. The doe permit allows for holding back on the young bucks but increasing the odds that you can tag out before the end of the season.

The antlers are the reward for outfoxing an old buck. Maine laws do not allow baiting for deer so you need to work a bit harder to pattern deer and understand the variation in the mast crop from year to year.

Shoot them both and and be content with each.

I like the challenge of "trophy" hunting, shooting does around here is akin to shooting an old milk cow; anyone can do it. There is no challenge to it. Don't get me wrong, I'll fill the freezer, but it doesn't give me any huge thrill.

I have never understood why meat hunters will shoot a young buck when they have a doe tag in their pocket. The difference in amount of meat on the carcass is negligible, and the doe will taste better.

It's not that we hold meat hunting against anyone, it's just that we prefer you, A)didn't shoot every three pointer that walks by just because you can, and B)understand that trophy hunting promotes good herd management, and it helps pay for conservation that helps us all.

Gonna have to reserve the right to respectfully disagree on some of your points. As I have said before many times on this forum the over emphasizing the amount of bone an a deer's head will be one of the downfalls of hunting. If the public at large thinks that the only reason people are hunting is for antlers, they will rally against it. The public can and has voted to end some sorts of hunting and they will d it again if they can. The one type of hunting that has overwhelming public support is meat hunting.

I find it interesting in this type of discussion that one side says Ok if you want to shot big antlered deer only they have no problem wih it. The just want to be able to continue to hunt for deer to put meat on the table and enjoy the ourdoors. The other side SEEMS to want all regulations to be set for large antlerd deer so they can get them for TROPHIES. They call that "quality dee management" and want all others to not shoot certain deer so they can have their trophies. One wants everyone to be able to hunt the game of their choice while the other wants everyone to only hunt certain deer that meet "their" specifications. I know which onwx I agree with but each hunter must make their own choice.

It's not the actions of one person that are an issue here, it's the actions of the many that have consequences far beyond any one person's little sphere of influence. It's kind of like throwing trash out going down the road. If just a few do it now and then, it has little effect. If everyone does it, pretty soon the whole county resembles a landfill. I don't support regulation of any size restrictions because this is a free nation, but I won't sit here and pretend it's right for someone to shoot animals they claim to care nothing about (immature bucks) because it is convenient or because they don't care about their neighbors. That is the definition of selfishness.

No BRT, the definition of selfishness is telling people they should allow smaller bucks, even though legal to walk so they can grow bigger so you can kill them.

"It's not that we hold meat hunting against anyone, it's just that we prefer you, A)didn't shoot every three pointer that walks by just because you can, and B)understand that trophy hunting promotes good herd management, and it helps pay for conservation that helps us all".

Just know that buck carries the same genes at 1 1/2 years old that he carries at 5 years old and the guy who is content to take a 1 1/2 year old buck that is legal, paid the same for his license as you did for yours so maybe the "we" in your statement above should just worry about what you take and not the legal kill of another. It really isn't any of your business if someone one who possess a doe tag takes a buck that doesn't meet you muster, perhaps they want to fill both tags.

So genius, explain to me how in the biological world it makes one bit of difference is a deer dies before it attains maturity? Deer die every single day in this nation. They are a prey species. Nature doesn't care one bit how many inches of bone a deer has on its head. Only man cares about that. The death of younger deer is a natural occurrence. ALways has been, always will be. Didn't they teach biology in TN?

And, where did anyone in this entire thread say anything about "caring nothing" about any game animal? The fact that someone decides to fill their tag with an animal you would let walk does not mean one person cares anymore than another person. That is the height of ego to claim you have some sort of "moral high ground" over another hunter because you only want mature bucks. I dismiss that premise out of hand.

Here's a little newsflash, the individual states decide what is a legal deer to take! YOU DO NOT. Therefore if someone decides to take a nice tender young buck for meat and that animal is legal, I say let them tag it. Why not? The state has sold them a tag that says they can do so, the hunter wants the deer and is satisfied with it and the meat is utilized. I say that is a good thing. If someone like you wants to get your panties in a twist because you don't like it, then too bad! I refuse to hunt in a manner that pleases someone like you. Your opinion on the matter is just that, your opinion. But it is not binding nor does it have any validity on anyone else and for you to toss random insults at others merely shows how flimsy your platform is.

There was a time when I was all about big deer and trophies. I spent over $70K on taxidermy in my life. I no longer hunt for that reason. I hunt for enjoyment and for meat and I will take the deer I want to take without regard as to what someone like you thinks about it. To suggest that meat hunters are having a negative effect on hunting is the height of arrogance and to compare it to having everyone throw trash out their window is stupid. Of all forms of hunting it is meat hunting that has the support of the public and hunting has always been about obtaining food!

You hunt for big antlers if you want but don't you dare try to negate those of us that hunt for meat. Especially someone like me. I have hunted in more than 10 states, 2 Canadian provinces and have done 5 African safaris. I've taken 68 species of big game to date and if I want to take a young buck for meat, I will. When you have more hunting experience than I do, maybe I'll listen to you, but not until then.

Personally, I don't care what people shoot as long as its legal and it makes you happy.

Me, I've shot tons of deer. Every year I'll fill my freezer with meat by shooting 2 or 3 or 4 does...and I hunt for a buck that I'd like to shoot. Some years I get one, most years I don't. I'm way passed the days of shooting any buck just to say "I got my buck" or for bragging rights. I bet I pass up 20-30 different bucks every season, hoping to see one that will make me happy.

"When you have more hunting experience than I do, maybe I'll listen to you, but not until then. "

Theses are the kinds of statements that make this forum unbearable at times. If you haven't killed 68 different species like ol flags has, your opinion means nothing. I think it would have been much easier to type "agree to disagree" than post that diatribe.

What flags did was to address the nonsense that was posted by the someone who tried to make it look like those who hold out for big bone are somehow a better conservationist than those who will take any legal deer. It is the same drivel and diatribe used by some bone hunters to justify their insulting of those hunters for whatever there reason is, and it really doesn't matter, why they are satisfied with a smaller legal deer. He calls them selfish! Really? Why? I will answer that, so they can kill bigger deer, someone else is supposed to pass on a legal animal. I call that selfish. If a person wants to hold out for a really big rack, fine, have a ball. However don't try to demean other hunters who bellied up to the bar and laid down their money for a license the same as the trophy hunters. I suggest you go back and re-read the post that caused Flags to respond the way he did, it was because the poster tried to imply, and failed by the way, that those who don't hunt like he does are inferior hunters. All Flags did was to say when you have accomplished what he has, then maybe you can tell him how to hunt.

I just dont see what was so upetting in notoriousBRT's original post. It appears the statement that most got under flags' skin was "we prefer you didn't shoot every three pointer that walks by just because you can." Key word there is prefer. He didn't say "meat hunters" cant shoot or shouldn't shoot small bucks; he said he PREFERRED they didn't. I share the same sentiment. I would prefer hunters on neighboring properties not shoot small bucks as well, as I prefer to go after big bucks. Is there something wrong with that?

Nope, not so long as you don't inflict your desires on others which is exactly what Notorious did when he called people selfish for shooting small buck. Now if you did not get that, you aren't trying. There are a couple of others here that target huge racks, however while they talk about it, I have never seen them denigrate others who don't hold back on a smaller buck for their benefit. That is the part that ticks people off, that and the nonsense that trophy rack hunters do more to pay for conservation. If you own your own land, then you can tell others what they may and may not kill on your land, if they are hunting on public land or the land of another, so long as the animal is legal, is isn't anyone else's business.

Welcome to the site. I'm from TN too.
Who is this "we" that you speak of? Sounds to me like you may be drinking abit of the qdma/ one buck limit kool-aide.

Come on out to eastern part of the state and deer hunt. You may appreciate those old milk cow does and three pointers a little more.
I know I can legally kill just as many does as anyone. I just got to drive 3/4 of the way across to state to be able to do it.

Holy hypocrisy now everybody is the victim.

These guys have went on about how trophy hunting is ruining hunting, fueling the anti's etc. yet claim they don't try to tell others how they should do it or what they should hunt.

Then on the other side you have guys that "do it for the challenge" but are also mad because its not easier?:confused0024:

I kill 4 or 5 deer a year usually. Generally I kill a yearling and eat it almost entirely fresh(never been frozen), I kill 2 or 3 adult does and 1 or 2 mature bucks.

I love to hunt mature bucks but the whole reasoning for that would be lost if everybody else just let them go. That is the whole point. I want to hunt the elusive animals......the ones that are big and old because they are hard to hunt. Isn't that the whole point of a trophy or are we getting into the adult era where people were raised when all the kids got a trophy?

I don't care if you let them go or not because I want the one you couldn't get not the one you let go. The rarity is half of the appeal.

As far as the meat hunter side you lumping me in with these people that hunt high fences and those who waste the meat is akin to me lumping you in with those who shoot doe out the truck window and drive off. It is you that fuel the anti fire by giving these crazies a bigger platform and trying to stuff "trophy hunting" all into one box or at the very least not specifying that what you are really talking about is an extreme minority of the hunters that waste the animal. The phrase trophy hunting has become way to associated with wasting meat when that is very rarely the case and it is you that is to blame for that not me.

I have never wasted an animal by choice, I have never hunted behind a fence, and I have never paid somebody else to do the hunting while I pull the trigger and I am a trophy hunter.

That is what a trophy HUNTER is. Find something else to call the people doing the stuff we all disapprove of and if you want a challenge hunt for bucks other people can't get instead of expecting them to let them go for you.

I don't know who you think lumped you in with high fence hunters but I certainly missed it. This would be the only post I saw that could be construed to include you, and frankly it did. It certainly didn't indicate you hunted high fence. "There are a couple of others here that target huge racks, however while they talk about it, I have never seen them denigrate others who don't hold back on a smaller buck for their benefit".

Hey I saw that and figured I was included in that and I do appreciate that. However you have in fact used phrases that include me and lumped them right in with these other things like I pointed out earlier in this thread.

"those who covet big antlers" well that is me I covet big antlers. you lumped that phrase right in with killing sport hunting and hunting for the sake of the enjoyment of hunting.

I hope you can see "those who covet big antlers" is far to broad of a term and includes way to may good people....As well as the term "trophy hunting"

The only time you will see me telling people what to shoot/not shoot is when I get the impression that a big boy is what THEY want. I will sometimes encourage people not to prematurely hang their tag on something that is not what they really want.

I run a hunting operation and have zero restrictions. The people that hunt my properties have the opportunity to hunt the deer THEY want as deer of all ages and sizes are there but they have to do it themselves. I give suggestions and ideas but I do not hunt the deer for them.

Yeah you are right, it is too all inclusive. That wasn't intended to include you, sorry you thought it was. I was pizzed when I wrote it. The problem isn't trophy hunters or hunters who target big bone, they have always been with us, generally people knew who they were, they were the guys who killed big deer, however that was before all the tv experts shows that started one segment of hunters to tell another segment what they should do. It is those who want everyone else to pass on what in many cases may be the biggest or only buck they ever had in their sights so it can grow into their idea of a trophy deer. That is what trips my trigger. Some folks just want to enjoy hunting and putting meat in the freezer and there is nothing wrong with that and when they are called selfish that is over the top.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should do it. Apparently I struck a nerve with the word selfish, though perhaps "thoughtless" would have been more descriptive. Most simply give no thought to what that 1 1/2 year old buck would have been, or all the offspring he would have produced in the ruts he will never see.

Oldtimr: Yes, a buck carries the same genes his entire life, but how many ruts has the 1 1/2 year old been through, versus if he had lived to 5 1/2?

Flags: You may very well have more hunting experience than me, it doesn't mean I'm stupid or that I am wrong. After some research, I find that this is not the first vitriolic rant you have made against anyone who doesn't hunt only for meat.


I don't necessarily believe that a one buck limit is the answer, though I have personally witnessed the dramatic improvement in deer quality in Middle Tennessee in the last decade or so since TWRA started cutting back the buck limit. I can remember in the 90's and early 2000's, when the limit was something like 7 bucks, everyone around killed a truck load of scrub bucks and strutted around like they were some great white hunter. It was awful. I can remember someone killing a six point buck and them thinking it was something special. These were not novice hunters, either.

Kentucky has had good luck with a one buck limit it seems. Dad killed a B&C non-typical (scored 211) in South Central Kentucky in 1987, and then a solid 140 inch 8 point in 89 or 90. Such bucks were practically nonexistent in Middle Tennessee at that time, and are still rare, though I am seeing a considerable uptick in the number of 8 point bucks running around lately. I'm not sure we'll ever see deer in Eastern Tennessee, or Eastern Kentucky for that matter, like we do in the more western portions. The terrain is rugged and there is a lack of agriculture in the east, and the deer just never seemed to take hold there quite like they did in other places.

NotoriousBRT, the buck limit went from 11 to 3 in 1999. So any improvement you interpret at the current time is a reflection of before they dropped it to 2 for the up coming season. Any "trophys" killed in TN this coming season will have nothing to do with the 2 buck limit.

A changing attitude amongst hunters in general is what has accounted for any improvement in the buck age structure. And by your own account, that was already taking place with a 3 buck limit. The dropping of 1 buck from the state bag limit will just affect less than 3% of the hunting population. That's about all that actually killed 3 to begin with.

I just read a current affairs forum earlier(about that lion) and the crazies are lumping all kinds of phrases into the very small group of people that are just not really hunters at all.

Sport hunters, trophy hunters etc.

Can't we call these people something that does not end with "hunters"?

Sport hunter,trophy hunter,meat hunter etc. As long as we eat the meat and don't waste the animals isn't it all good?

Its just another thing the crazies try to run with "trophy hunters" they want to think that means people who want nothing but the trophy and waste everything else. That is absolute nonsense and that BS certainly shouldn't be encouraged or catered to by people that actually have some damn sense.

Amongst hunters it needs to be very clear that is not what "trophy hunter" means. Sure is does happen but its not hunters doing that stuff.