Shinto is a religion. Some write it off as pantheism or ancestor worship, but that's not accurate. We do believe that there is an element of the creator in everything including rocks and trees. But that really isn't any different than the Christian belief that God is omnipresent is it?

I know that my the spirits of our ancestors are there to guide us if we listen. Is this so different than the Catholic prayer for intercession to the saints? I know that my husband's spirit will still be there to guide me and our daughters even after he leaves this life.

I do accept the Catholic faith. I just believe that doctrines and dogmas can be imperfect and I accept, as does my husband, what is true for us. The fact that religious beliefs are frequently revised makes this attitude seem reasonable.

And I understand that one of the popes has said there is no conflict between the Bible and evolution. And they teach evolution in the science classes in our local Catholic schools.

Shinto does not have a holy book which incorporates a set of dogmas and rules to which one has to swear allegiance which makes it different from Western religions. In the Eastern tradition, one accepts what one has come to know. My husband spent much time in Korea. He tells me that it is not unusual there to see people who respect and follow both Buddha and Jesus.

As far as life after death, Christianity holds to a belief in a heaven, a specific place. I was not raised that way. The life of the soul after death is a different state but not a different place.

I am always willing to explain what I believe. And my husband shares my beliefs. But I don't feel as though I have to convince anyone in order that they might be "saved." My faith is strong enough to deal with the fact that others may disagree with me. :biggrin:

Although I have made mistakes in my life, I don't believe that I am a vile sinner in need of salvation.

As far as the hereafter is concerned, I don't believe we'll be bored. I think the wisdom we will acquire will be sufficient for our needs. Haven't you ever wondered what it would be like to be free of the restrictions of your earthly body and mind?


:sheep::sheep::sheep:
May The Sheep Be With You

So I was right! (sort of)... While it may technically be a religion, it doesn't have all of the characteristics one generally associates with a religious practice. Lets test the waters shall we?
1) Is there a Shinto church where people gather for the purpose of worship? (memorials and festivals are exempt)
2) Is there a Shinto preist or master who dictates what you can and can't do and what to think and say to others?
3) Does the Shinto practice solicit financial support where such support is funneled to the top like a pyramid?
4) Does Shinto imply threats and penalties for non-conformance?
5) Does Shinto explicitly and strategically act to perpetuate its own proliferation?

I do believe it is different. From my short time reading, it seems to me that the Shinto practice is so pacifistic that one would hardly call it religion.. In ten minutes of familiarizing myself with it, it looks like more of a tradition of respect than a worship of a higher-power.
Sure, there might be a higher power involved in there, but that's not the main focus.
At least, that's the impression I am getting.. I'm obviously not Japanese and am not going to have a good understanding of your ways via a few google searches.

Again, a few google searches isn't going to make me qualified enough to make some of these determinations. But the impression I am getting is clearly one of tradition and not religion. If I had to put a number to it, I'd say 95% tradition, vs 5% religious worship.


I kind of think that pretty much makes it a non-religion. Perhaps not technically because I think that any belief in a higher power could be classified as a religion.. That said, its not what one would typically consider a religion.
I think that the absence of a book is probably a key factor.


That's because your religion isn't really a religion in the sense we think of. You have no requirement to proliferate. No threats of violence or punishment for non conformance. Now you got me really curious if Shinto solicits financial support.

If everyone was Shinto, religion in this world wouldn't exist as it does today. I'm not saying Shinto is good or bad, I'm just saying that its not really what we westerners consider a religion in the common way that causes all the problems in society.



I experience that every night when I dream in my sleep.. Well, most nights anyhow.. Sometimes I have to put up with those pesky ninja's attacking! :happy0157:

Thank you again for contributing. I don't think that anyone, even the anti-religious like me, would have anything against your way of thinking.

Murby

After reading all 9 pages of this thread, and not seeing it mentioned, I felt compelled to say what everyone is thinking, and what you clearly want to hear.

Dude, you're smart, we get it. You argue content or positions that people are making to be alternative to their words. That certain phrasing, words, or points are clearly a sign of this or that, and cannot challenge your position and higher intellect.

I have no doubt you are smarter than me, I am smart enough to know that. I knowingly type this with the full expectation of you picking my words and motives apart like Freud, but I'm ok with that, because God is amazing.

It's that same amount of education that contributes to you agreeing with only what you can see, and the "science" you chose to believe. Evolution must be true, because an educated human says so. Who determines who is correct? Who determined the carbon dating method is correct? You're still choosing to believe in someone or something, it's just something other than God.

How do you know your great, great, great, great, great, great, great-grandfather existed? Where is your physical proof? You're here, so you take it for granted that he existed, that's faith.

Maybe, most believers appear "uneducated", as you put it, because they haven't been educated to the point of feeling smarter, better than, and more superior to everyone around them. God can't possibly exist to anyone who believes himself to be so of his own world.

And whether you like it or not, I'm praying for you.

Happy hunting my friend.

This has to be one of the best "rookie debut" posts in forum history. Nice first post, and welcome to the forum. I agree 100%. Everyone has faith, but not everyone decides to put their faith in the same places.

If you want to see smart, go here and see what a PhD is. http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/

I think I'm average..Maybe above, maybe below, who knows. PhD's are smart... That I do know.

I think there's a term for this kind of statement.. I'm not sure what it is but the term "circular argument" comes to mind.

That is not faith, that's logic.
I know the sun is going to be there tomorrow. Its not faith, its logic.


Now that clears up your perspective on this. Let me explain a bit so you don't think I'm some pompous jerk. (Or should I say, "so you STOP thinking I'm some pompous jerk)

One of my friends is a jet engine mechanic. We grew up together and I've known him for 35+ years. He moved away and we just reconnected a while back after not seeing each other for almost 15 of those years. He was one of the most trusted friends I have ever had the privilege of being associated with and I am a bit ashamed I let ourselves drift apart the way we did.
He works on all types of jet engines and he is a specialist. When there's a problem that the normal trouble shooting procedures can't resolve, they send him in. To say he's spent a bit of time in the classroom learning all this stuff is an understatement. I'm an engineer and while I understand the basics of a jet engine, they're way out of my ballpark.
My friend believes in God.. Born, raised, catechism, church every sunday, etc.. hardcore christian.
He also didn't believe in evolution.. Until we reconnected and I set him straight. He still believes in God, but he admits he wasn't aware of the science that has developed. He is/was uneducated in that respect.

You think that I used the word uneducated as a synonym for stupid or idiot. Well, sometimes that might be true.. But its not a rule.

I find that the majority of people who believe in a god are:
1. Uneducated.. Sometimes they just haven't kept up with the science that could have changed their minds, other times they are just idiots who have fried their brains on drugs or never bothered to read anything.
2. Indoctrinated.. They might be very educated folks but they were heavily exposed to religion at a very early age when their brains were developing. Their neurons are PHYSICALLY wired to incorporate religion into every aspect of their lives. No amount of education or proof will change the hard-wiring of their brain. You can write all the software you want, but you can't change the way a processor works.
3. Agenda.. Those who don't believe but know that pretending will bring in followers and give them money and power or something else they want.

Hope that clears it up.

Except for my ruggedly handsome good looks:biggrin:, I do not feel superior to anyone as I have my own list of shortcomings and faults.

That said, if you still think I am somehow superior and smarter than you, than I'm good with that! LOL

I see this angle being worked all of the time. It always coming from a religious person who's trying to deny evolution, prove that we have "souls", etc. Coincidentally, it is also completely ignorant of the spirit of science. No one, and I mean no one is better positioned to understand the ways our world can/does subvert expectation than the scientifically literate. You need scientific literacy and knowledge in order to merely dip the tip of your big toe into the pool of what human understanding has to say about how appearances can be deceiving.

Also, science is ultimately a matter of leaving yourself open to better evidence and better ideas. It holds no theory so sacred that it can't be supplanted by a new one.

Evolution and radiometric dating are well-established fields. Versus one guy on a hunting forum. Let's be realistic here.

I had to have a grandfather. How else would I be here? Maybe a wizard did it?

You're talking to a creationist and your asking for realism? And its not one guy on a hunting forum.. There's an army of them out there... It's like the invasion of scientific zombies.

Oh that's easy.. Its a Stork... everyone knows that.

Not all that believe in a world created by God, as opposed to evolving, are uneducated.

Read In Six Days: Why Fifty Scientists Choose to Believe in Creation - 50 scientists with advanced degrees from secular universities, all believing in Creation, six day creation no less.

Or read some of Stephen C Meyer's very recent books, like Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design or Darwin's Doubt: The Explosive Origin of Animal Life and the Case for Intelligent Design.

God is an awesome God, God Bless!

Agreed.. In such cases, they are indoctrinated at an early age. Not saying there are no exceptions..

And I'm sure I could find 50 scientist who believe aliens control the white house..
That said, if I ever find the time, I will read the book.. (but don't hold your breath)..

Ya, I'm not going to read that one.. I already explored the intelligent design wacko's.. That's just a prime example of "moving the goal post" once the original doctrine was debunked. People who believe in intelligent design are just folks who understand science but have been indoctrinated early.. The neurons in their brain bucket are wired in such a way as to incorporate god into everything, no matter how much logic says otherwise.

Indoctrination is very tough to crack.. almost impossible if done right. I would bet that even if God did show up one day, they wouldn't accept it no matter how much proof God showed.

Something to ponder, if God wanted us to worship him, why didn't he give us indisputable evidence of his existence and presence? Why not drop in every few hundred years and part an ocean or something?
Doesn't make sense...

This thread reminds me of this clip from the movie Signs.

http://youtu.be/27qUO8_9uT0

The Times's Marcus Mabry on what married same-sex couples can expect after <b>the</b> Supreme Court's decision Wednesday <b>that</b> the law is unconstitutional.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br> Rutgers coach Mike Rice could have turned over a table following his team's 11th loss in 12 games, or ripped into his <b>players</b> for squandering a <b>12-point</b> second-half lead.Yes,<br> the airline business is taking off in Somalia. Because have you seen<br><img src="http://1pageweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/im-sad-smiley.png"><br> the roads?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The filing with <b>the</b> federal Bankruptcy Court in Delaware will allow Coda Holdings, a Los Angeles start-up company, to get out of the auto sector and refocus on energy storage.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br> In "Pleasure Bound," Deborah <b>Lutz</b> takes readers on a tour of the eroticism of Victorian England.<br> Phil Forte stepped to the foul line and Marcus Smart couldn't bear <a href = "http://zed15.tumblr.com/Fibroids-Miracle">Fibroids Miracle download </a> so with 2.9<br> seconds left on the clock in a tie game, Oklahoma State's star freshman turned around. Israeli <b>Prime</b> Minister Binyamin Netanyahu on Sunday presented<br><img src="http://assets.****brix.com/hashed_silo_content/1e2/dd7/140/resized/wtf-when-you-see-it-you-ll-****-brix-d6dc9a.jpg"><br> his cabinet with a package of diplomatic and security incentives offered by the Obama administration to extend a 90-day freeze <b>on</b> new building in West Bank <b>settlements</b> and restart stalled peace negotiations. Alexander Semin <b>had</b> <b>a</b> goal and two assists, <b>linemate</b> Eric <b>Staal</b> added three assists and the Carolina Hurricanes beat the Buffalo Sabres 4-3 on Tuesday night.<br> The Canadian AeroVelo team has done<br><img src="http://awesomedc.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/sad.jpg"><br> what many thought impossible. The crew has officially claimed the <b>American</b> Helicopter Society's Igor I. Sikorsky Human-Powered Helicopter Prize. <b>And</b> for keeping their lightweight contraption afloat, the team was awarded $250,000 <a href = "http://zed15.tumblr.com/natural-vitiligo-treatment">natural vitiligo treatment </a> for the <b>flight</b> it completed on <b>June</b> 13.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A eulogy for Philip Roth’s homeroom teacher, his legendary and noble friend Bob Lowenstein.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Wells Fargo, the nation’s largest <b>home</b> lender, overcame a slowdown in the mortgage market to report record net income of <b>$5.5<br></b> billion.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There’s a really big TV in my <b>bedroom.</b> Should I try to conceal it before showing my home to potential buyers? Nvidia wants graphics processors to create avatars with realistic human faces, and power visual searches in which images can be identified to produce matching search <b>results.</b> Before Thursday’s draft, some prospects <b>spoke</b> about their hopes and their excitement.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reddit premiered a web series that explains complicated topics to children.<br> Tell us your best <b>bits</b> of pint-sized <a href = "http://zed15.tumblr.com/vision-without-glasses">vision-without glasses </a> people are forced to become garbage men instead of <b>famous</b> <b>pop</b> stars, according to a new web series that explains <b>complicated</b> concepts to children.<br> The YouTube-sponsored series is inspired by <b>a</b> <b>popular</b> subsection on Reddit where users can <b>post</b> questions they want explained to them as though they were <b>five</b> years old.Reddit<br> premiered three <b>videos</b> on Monday inspired by the site's Explain It Like I'm Five (ELI5) subsection. <b>In</b> the videos, actors explain things including the crisis in Syria and existentialism ("Are there any rules that your parents have that you think are silly at all?") to actual children. And while no one was chanting "Give me back my glue!" during the Arab spring, one youngster in the video is able <a href = "http://zed15.tumblr.com/Shapeshifter-Yoga">Shapeshifter Yoga review </a> that in Syria: "There's <b>a</b> mean president."Another child suggests that Bashar al-Assad "needs a beautiful woman and to get married to stop all these shenanigans". Quite.What is the smartest thing a child has told you? Do children understand things better <b>than</b> your adult friends? And does childhood innocence sometimes <b>make</b> for the best answers? <b>Tell</b> us in the comments below. RedditInternetYouTubeChildrenAmanda Holpuchguardian.co.uk<br> <b>&copy;</b> 2013 Guardian News and Media Limited or its affiliated companies.<br> All rights reserved. | Use of this content is subject to our Terms & Conditions | More Feeds 'I loved this book just as much as I loved the first, once again I just couldn't put it down.''Itch Rocks' is the sequel to 'Itch'.<br> Life is almost back <a href = "http://zed15.tumblr.com/tinnitusmiracle">tinnitusmiracle review </a> for Itchingham Lofte, unless you <b>count</b> the fact that he now has 24 hour security and is never left on his own. He is <b>now</b> a wanted man, only he <b>knows</b> where the most valuable but at the same time destructive rocks in the world are.<br> When he goes back to school, suddenly Lucy Cavendish who was always <b>nice</b> <b>to</b> him before is now horrible to <b>both</b> him and Jack; and a new girl called Mary Lee has a few interesting secrets that<br><img src="http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/WTF_ab7188_313274.jpg"><br> she is <b>trying</b> to hide, eventually unsuccessfully. With his new bodyguards, it seems like no one can get to him, they could <b>not</b><br><img src="http://s3files.core77.com/blog/images/bGjfANdAG7alsuh2zGhPTTyk_500.jpg"><br> be more wrong.But<br> one day, everything changes. When a girl that he was once close <a href = "http://zed15.tumblr.com/trademiner">trademiner </a> an accident on her bike, she becomes curious and does <b>a</b> little snooping of<br><img src="http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/naturelibrary/images/ic/credit/640x395/a/af/african_wild_dog/african_wild_dog_1.jpg"><br> <b>her</b> own. A secret <b>is</b> told; and suddenly Itch is taken by a <b>notorious</b> killer who wants the rocks for herself. He finds that all the hard work <b>that</b> he did just a<br><img src="http://1pageweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/im-sad-smiley.png"><br> few months ago is now suddenly being undone, all that hard and painstaking work, all for nothing. Being lead back to Brighton, to an old school where his form teacher used to teach, is not fun – just very dangerous. At this school is where he hid the rocks. They are worth incredible value and could save the world's energy problem, but <b>create</b> much bigger <b>problems</b> on its own. They are highly radioactive and <a href = "http://zed15.tumblr.com/directory-of-ezines">directory of ezines review </a> if not cased inside lead. Now he finds that he is saving the world all <b>over</b> again, from the same people and about the same thing…This book is a great follow up <b>to</b> 'Itch'. The<br><img src="http://assets.****brix.com/hashed_silo_content/1e2/dd7/140/resized/wtf-when-you-see-it-you-ll-****-brix-d6dc9a.jpg"><br> events are linked between both books and you find out some incredible things that you didn't know before.<br> Itch is just as determined; this time joined by his little sister Chloe and his ever loving best mate and cousin, Jack.<br> I loved this book just as much as I loved the first, once again I just<br><img src="http://awesomedc.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/sad.jpg"><br> couldn't put it down.<br> The only thing that I would say <b>is</b> to read the first book before the second otherwise you may not understand parts of it.I was so <a href = "http://zed15.tumblr.com/ex-girlfriend-guru">i want my girlfriend back </a> be picked<br><img src="http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa292/luigibean/Funny/hilarious.jpg"><br> to interview Simon Mayo, he was so nice and <b>I</b> have only read this because I <b>got</b> an early copy, the date for it <b>to</b> come out is<br><img src="http://brynhobson.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/LovelyWEB.jpg"><br> the 28th February.This<br> is one of my favourite books and you should definitely put it to <b>the</b> top of books to read! Can't wait for the third one that we've been promised next year!!!!!Want to tell the world about a book you've read? Join the site and <b>send</b> us your review!Children's books: 8-12 yearsChildren and teenagersguardian.co.uk &copy; 2013 Guardian News and Media Limited or its affiliated companies. All rights reserved. | Use of this content is subject to our Terms & Conditions | More Feeds New recordings from Cristina Ariagno, the <a href = "http://zed15.tumblr.com/Pregnancy-Miracle">Pregnancy Miracle </a> and the Choir of King’s College.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When Congress established more than 200 Alaska native corporations 40 years ago to provide <b>land</b> and money for indigenous people who had <b>long</b> been mired in deprivation and <b>dislocation,</b> each of the 75,000 original Alaska native shareholders received a stake in one of the new corporations, which held out the promise of <b>economic</b> development and a better life.<br> But the original promise remains largely unfulfilled. Wisconsin Gov.<br> Scott Walker (R) and Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R) have a lot in common. Both midwestern swing-state Republicans who have faced efforts to recall their agenda or job, Walker and Kasich have bounced back to the point <b>that</b> both are viewed as potential 2016 presidential candidates.<br> Read full <a href = "http://zed15.tumblr.com/forex-growth-bot">forex growth bot review </a> The Department of Defense <b>has</b> identified 2,182 American service members who have died as a part of the Afghan war and related operations.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In thinking about technology and digital <b>costs,</b> DreamWorks has become a marquee client for Intel and Hewlett-Packard, speaking to the oil industry and Wall Street. The chief preoccupation of middle-class Americans, according to a new poll, is not the dream of getting ahead but the fear of falling behind. Showing improvement <b>on</b> memory or reasoning tests, but no longer necessarily <b>in</b> daily functioning, could lead to <b>approvals.<br></b> Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh clung to power by a thread after country's most powerful military commander threw his support behind protesters and opposition groups seeking<br><img src="http://rlv.zcache.com/fancy_heart_i_love_you_lovely_card-p137072256687669726b2ico_400.jpg"><br> Saleh's ouster <b>and</b> defections

I'd like to get in on this but working on my M.A. has really lessened my forum time. I would remind those professing Christianity to watch the mud slinging. When I read a "Christian" who is arguing their side in one post and calling names in the next it makes me scratch my head and wonder. Thanks to everyone willing to calmly debate each side though. Talks like this is what helps all of us to grow and learn.
-Jake

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but paged through them all, enough to confirm that my expectation was correct for what happened here.

If the OP would have posted "Mother nature is amazing," we would have seen 3 or 4 posts over a week commenting on how cool the video was, or asking where it was taken, how the herd was managed, etc etc, before this got bumped off of the main page and forgotten.

Instead, because the title was "God is amazing", an innocent thread became an opportunity for one person to spend 10 pages trying to prove how smart he is. Rather than being smart enough to realize that he's not 'converting' or 'educating' anyone here, he has taken the opportunity argue endlessly, illustrating how close minded he really is, and how denigrating he choses to be toward the belief system of others that don't conform to his own beliefs.

When someone stands on an island like this and argues their position to no end, I often can't decide whether to laugh or shake my head, because at this point, being ignorant to the futility of continuing the argument is no better than the ignorance you're accusing of the people you're trying to 'convert' or 'educate'. Creationist, or other flavors of entrenched believers that take the human documentation of God's teachings (i.e. the Bible) to a faulted literalism, and believe that a man survived in the belly of a whale, or believe that our universe was created in 6 days; these people have decided to live in strict black and white. If any of it is truth, then it must all be truth. Equally, you stand on the other side of the fence to the opposition, and argue that you have no proof that certain aspects of it are true, so therefore NONE of it may be true. Both of you are ignorant. Or should I use your preferred term, "uneducated?"

My honest motivation to comment at all tonight, though I have fought it for a few hours now, is based around your specifically narrow-minded list of reasons for which "educated people might still be foolish enough to believe in God":

I SHARE THE FOLLOWING WITH YOU NOT AS AN ARGUEMENT, BUT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPAND YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHY SOME 'EDUCATED PEOPLE' (or at least THIS educated person) BELIEVE IN GOD. You have made up your mind, and I do not care to change it, but I'll share with you the reasoning as to how I made up MY mind, which contradicts what you have touted thus far.

I consider myself an educated person, and I do believe in God, so I feel it fair to comment on why I don't believe in the narrow division of motivations you have proposed.

My faith has nothing to do with my 'indoctrination': I was not raised by a religious family, we only went to church a few times a year, mostly for the fellowship with other farmers rather than for any actual pious motivation. Neither my parents, nor either set of grand parents were regular attenders. Since the time that I chose my own faith roughly 15yrs ago, I have been off and on for regular Sunday attendance, even though I'm still fairly active within our church activities when I can be of use (in fact, I help out with events a couple church's in our community, not just my own. I do this in the interest of serving my community, not just the other Mennonites within it).

Nor do I believe in a higher power as a fraudulent ruse for my own gain. I assume you are referring to those 'televangelist' types we might see on late night TV, or those that post on facebook every sunday afternoon about the Glory God has shown them in their lives, on top of the pictures from the bar they posted from Saturday night. I consider my faith to be a very personal thing, and take a slight insult that this makes your list as a substantial subset for the motivation of Christian followers. If I have gained monetarily from my faith, or the recruitment of said faith in others in any way, it'd be news to me.

My faith in God does indeed stem directly from my level of education, but contrarily to the perception you have about the correlation between faith and education level. I would expect that I would be fair to consider my 'education' to be above average for Americans, as it includes two bachelors degrees, one in Medical Science: Pre-Med, the other chemical engineering with minors in physics and microbiology. While working full-time jobs over the last decade, I have so far finished my Masters in Chemical Engineering, working toward my PhD, and should finish my MBA at the end of next year. I'm a certified Project Management Professional, a licensed Professional Engineer, and a certified Risk Assessor. I have co-authored 2 registered US patents, and been supporting contributor on over a dozen others in the last decade. I consider myself to be "educated" at least partially, and I can say irrefutably that my education, and the resultant understanding I have for how the universe around me functions, has served as the motivation for me to START believing.

My 'without-a-doubt expectation' for your response will be for you to reference, probably even quote yourself, your thread where you emboldened the word "majority", giving yourself an excuse to exclude someone like me from your narrow-minded definitions of 'educated believers'. Undoubtedly, you included this modifier to give yourself an outlet to pursue that someone like me might come along, so you can dismiss me as an exception to the "majority". To which my response is this: you've drawn very small boxes for a very diverse subset of the world's population. There is no reason to believe nor evidence to support that your boxes are applicable as global definitions other than narcissistic cynicism, but you have passed them off as such. You have revealed yourself.

My reasons for believing, including some of the reasons that I believe things that contradict traditional Christian teachings (which I politely keep to myself around certain members of our church), have come directly from my understanding of science and the world around me. It is the continuity of RULES, many of which contradict the number one rule of the universe, that created a foundation for my faith.

Discrete Examples:

In engineering school, many aspects of our world get simplified into standardized equations. These equations, in application, are essentially a set of rules for behavior that the world exhibits. Oddly, equations for VERY different systems will have the same structure, essentially the same rules. Why might it make sense that a photon of light traveling through space would behave under similar rules to water flowing through an aqueduct or the same rules as heat traveling through a rifle barrel? Why would the equations for gravity, magnetism, or ionic potential be nearly identical? Or why would inductive magnetism follow the same equation structure as gyroscopic stabilization? Why would the radiative decay of radio-isotopes used for carbon dating behave under the same set of rules that apply to the metabolization of an acorn by a squirrel's stomach?

Why should a human being have the same physical structure as a deer? Why would snakes have remnants of legs? Why is it that a spider's leg (an invertebrate species, mind you) has the same fundamental structure as a human limb? Why does all living matter on earth share a common foundational structure for genetic blueprinting (DNA)?

Why do all life forms on our planet rely upon CO2 or O2, and H2O? Regardless of our species specific transport strategy (lungs, gills, book lungs, etc) and despite the extreme differential in species genetics, all animals rely upon oxygen, and all plants rely upon carbon dioxide, and both depend upon water.

Now consider these questions and the broad reaching 'coincidental' similarities between these well defined rule structures in the context of the highest order irrefutable rule of our universe: the increase of Entropy. If our universe, and arguably our planet, is as old as science has 'proven' it to be, and originated in the way that science has proven it did, how did a non-selective entropic universe develop a planet with an extremely SMALL set of universal rules? (Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting here that I disagree with the scientific theory of the age nor origination of the earth or universe.) For a system to behave in an isentropic, or even decreasing entropy state, the work required to combat the 'decay of universal structure' must be entropic. In layman's terms, someone or some thing had to put in the work, in an entropic release, to create all of the unified structure and organization that we have within our universe. An explosion does not result in order.

That is why I believe. I may not believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale, and I may believe in the expanding universe (big bang theory), but science has shown me that a well structured set of rules exist, which contradicts the very nature of the universe in which they exist, and therefore SOMETHING has to have written those rules.

But, reasonable words falling on deaf ears or close minds are both similarly heard. It's your leg, keep on kicking a dead horse if you so enjoy it.

You speak of churches as indoctrination centers. Maybe they are but so are schools. Is any education anyone received have any credibilility? Are your scientific ideologies based on faith as well, since you did not invent any of these ideas yourself. That said show some respect to others who believe in something as you do.

Assigned viewing to all inhabitants of this thread:

Religulous by Bill Maher

Nomercy you said what i didn't have time to say, and better than I could have said it. Nice post, thanks for sharing.
-Jake

You happen to have been brought up, i would presume, in the Christian faith. You know what it's like not to believe in a particular faith because you're not a Muslim… you're not a Hindu. You are an Atheist to hundreds of religions, i just take it one god further.

Why aren't you a Hindu? Because you happen to have been brought up in in America, not in India. If you had been brought up in India, you'd be a Hindu. If you'd been brought up in Denmark at the time of the Vikings, you'd be believing in Wotan and Thor. If you had been brought up in classical Greece you'd be believing in Zeus. If you had been brought up in Central Africa, you'd be believing in the great juju up the mountain.

There's no particular reason to pick the Judeo Christian god in which, by the sheerest accident, you happen to have been brought up

Personal Attack Number 1... Nice!

You're not really capable of holding an objective debate on the subject are you? You feel compelled to add personal attacks to your disagreement as if its going to somehow lend credibility to your arguments?

Honest motivation?:happy0157:
Do you really think about this for hours? Oh man, I guess it really struck a nerve. Still no reason or excuse for a personal attack.


Well now, if you're going to attempt to stick words into my mouth that I never said, you should at least be honest enough to let everyone know that you're making things up as you go. Or has that "honest motivation" evaporated already? My guess is that its buried in the bible somewhere with the rest of the hogwash.



Did you actually just say that? You just admitted in black and white that you were clearly indoctrinated.
"Umm.. No Mr. Police officer, I didn't steal it I promise.. I just took it off the shelf and walked out the door without paying".. :busted:


Add politicians, elected officials, clergy themselves, etc etc etc...
Money, sex and power..


Obviously not personal enough to stop you from throwing around personal attacks and insults.


We'll get back to this shortly...

Ya, your parents taking you to church had nothing to do with it.
:hail:

Not at all.. you were clearly indoctrinated when you were a child.. you just said as much.


Oh ya.. here we go...

Yes, two plus two equals four in every subject.. There's also up, down, left, right, forward and backward.. But the rest of your non-specific analogies are misleading at best and mostly just illiterate horse babble.

Ah, I get it now.. You believe in god because you can't explain or don't understand the universe. That clears it up...

All that education, all those degrees.. and who's is trying to prove how smart they are? You don't see me bragging about that stuff in here..
Since you seem to have COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY missed Biology 101, Gardening 101, Chemistry 101, and a few other classes I can't even think of, it seems improbable that you have all the education you claim to have.
There are hundreds of lifeforms that live without oxygen.. For some of these, oxygen will kill them. There are those that thrive off of sulfur, iron, and a whole bunch of other elements.. Biology isn't my thing but pretty much any high school kid knows this stuff.
What happened to all that education?

What kind of techno-babble are you trying to pass off? ROFLMAO..

If that's what makes you happy.. But while you're trying to prove to everyone how educated you are with a bunch of nonsensical babbling you're hoping others don't understand, you might want to double check the oxygen thing and educate yourself.


I'll bet that even the dead horse knows that there are lifeforms that do not require oxygen.

You're Dismissed.

I saw that... Pretty good. I never had a taste for Maher until he made that film...

What do we know?

We are just humans, depending on the word of humans that came before us.

History has shown us that depending on the word of other humans is sometimes (almost always) foolhardy at best.

You are certainly correct.. Schools could be used as a powerful indoctrination center if they allowed it. Its a good thing they removed "god" from our public educational facilities because it is automatic indoctrination if they don't.

Of course, all education counts.. even if its religiously based.. still counts as education and is still credible.

I follow science as my guide. Sometimes I let love into the decision making process, sometimes art, but never religion.


Please point out where I have disrespected someone unjustly. Respecting someone, or their beliefs, is different and separate from respecting what they believe in.

That is a good one but my all time favorite is "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVr9bJ8Sctk

That would disrespect many teachers and christians. Schools are already powerful indoctrination centers but that has nothing to do with religion.

How do you figure it would disrespect teachers?

No one would like their place of business labeled or mentioned as an indoctrination center. Career employees, especially members of a union, are very prideful of their professions. Do you know many teachers?

I think we have a misunderstanding.. I thought you meant that removing god disrespected teachers.. Not sure why I read it that way...

We can leave it at that...just a misunderstanding. No one ever wins a long strung out forum debate. If anything it is a pyrrhic victory at best.

God is amazing.

Organized religion as perpetrated by mankind is bunk. Just another ploy by people to control other people using the latter's faith in their creator.

I can live with that!!:party0005:

Murby, I'm doing an experiment. If I bag a Big 'ole buck 8pt or better, God exists. If not, the entire notion is complete bunk.

I'll keep you posted. :deer:

I tried that with the 500 million lotto and came to the conclusion god doesnt exist.

Murby, here's a link to a short article I ran into today. You might be interested.

http://catholiceducation.org/article...ics/ap0486.htm

The problem with that article is that it was written, edited and published by someone with an obvious bias on the subject. As with other media tricks, journalists tend to leave out important details in the "other side" of the story when it suits their agenda.

And just so you know, if I was reading the same by in an atheist journal, I would take the same attitude. (You can call me an equal opportunity non-believer) :happy0157:

What would have been better would be to watch the actual unedited interview.
This is the very reason "hear say" is not allowed in a court of law..

I didn't read it thoroughly, so I'll take your word for it.

Edit: he does make a point, though, that Dawkins has an implicit premise that rejects anything that isn't connectable to Darwinism. That's not good argumentation on Dawkins' part.

While I'm thinking about it, related to an earlier discussion, there is something that the Christians came up with that I don't think the ancients would have otherwise. You were thinking more on the lines of something in the scientific realm. I'll go a different route.

A crucified messiah represented an intellectually bizarre idea that no one would have invented. The reason is that to people in honor cultures, it represented absolute, utter humiliation and dishonor. They didn't crucify you to kill you. They did it to debase you before everybody and utterly discredit your ideas and politics.

The early Christians had a very serious problem in insisting on a crucified messiah. Preach a crucified messiah to a potential convert in that world, and you pretty much ruined your case from the get-go. Messiahs weren't crucifixion victims. Quite literally, crucifixion was something you didn't talk about as a matter of principle, and you never admitted to associating with someone who was crucified.

This is one of the reasons St. Paul had to insist to the Corinthians that the cross and crucifixion were crucial. They want nothing to do with it whatsoever. Paul has to set them straight and preach to them that a crucified messiah was an essential.

The significance: it seems that in the face of a murder that should have totally discredited Jesus as a messiah figure, they insisted on it anyway. Something convinced them that a crucified individual was the messiah nonetheless, despite all of their aversion to the idea. Obviously, a resurrection would carry that kind of weight.

No its not, and his "black or white" condition is not unique to him either. People have become so polarized in their beliefs that they have blinded themselves. It's most obvious when watching our own government officials argue. No one dares admit the "other side" may have a valid point because it would give off the appearance of weakness.
A stupid attitude for sure.


I can't argue those events, the meaning of, or the significance they hold. However, I think your interpretation of them, as it applies to our debate, is a stretch to say the least.

Putting a pharaoh's organs in a sealed jar is intellectually bizarre if you ask me, but that doesn't indicate there was anything else going on.. (relatively speaking)

The question of whether our universe was somehow "created" is certainly a very interesting one, and it's no surprise that intelligent people end up on both sides of it (especially given the existing literature on the topic).

Then you started up with this stuff...

We should expect, rather than be surprised by, similarities among complex phenomena occurring in the same universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_descent

How can someone with a background in biology not be familiar with this rather fundamental concept?

Again, read the Origin of Species. It will help fill a few holes in that education of yours.

And here comes the tortured logic...and narrow definitions...and assumptions...that just happen to lead to the conclusion that the universe MUST have been created by a super-intelligent being.

I find it kind of amusing how all of this depends on a very simple, human assumption: that "rules" had to have been written. I often see it stated in this language: "Laws imply a lawgiver".

It's all just shorthand for "I personally can't imagine that the universe simply IS...it MUST have been designed by a super-intelligent being."

You have chosen, and are defending, a VERY narrow interpretation of the world. You seem to have considered so little. To go from I understand physics -> I feel like the world had to have been created by an intelligent being -> I'm a Mennonite...I mean, what happened to intellectual honesty? Okay, so the world had to have been created by someone/something super powerful and super intelligent. Compared to who? Us? Big deal! Maybe the creator of our universe is the member of a "species" of which he is a particularly unintelligent example. Maybe he is in one of their special ed classes. Maybe our universe was the pathetic project his school administrators allowed him to enter when they saw how excited he was for the science fair (only to discard it once his handler lead him away).

Note that there is nothing in your reasoning or logic that precludes the possibility of a special ed God. Yet here you are, a member of a religion that believes the creator of the Universe cares deeply about us and will give us eternal joy and happiness after we die. How convenient!

And on that note, what then??? So you die and you go to heaven and you get eternal joy and happiness and yada yada yada...

Then what? Has anyone ever considered this? Do you then sit in a box with a big smile on your face in some kind of limbo stasis?

I would think that no matter how great heaven is, you're going to get bored eventually. You could travel the universe, but eventually you're going to get bored. Once boredom sets in, that joy and happiness is going to disappear pretty quickly. It might take a while, but eternal is a big number.

This type of argument is one of the key indicators that religion (any religion) is a bunch of hogwash.
The people who made up these silly things long ago did not have the intellectual reasoning power we have today. In short, they weren't as smart as we are.. Their brains not as developed or experienced in abstract or logical thought patterns. (some folks are still undeveloped in this sense)