Good post SS! And a fair question too! No, it does not need to be discussed in every thread or post, But it should NOT be a taboo subject either! To a Christian believer, it is a natural thing to see God's work in all things and it does not need to be something that you should have to hide either!
The thread title should tell folks that there is SOMETHING inside the post about God & Christ. The best thing that a non-believer could do is just ignore and avoid this particular thread, not come knocking another's beliefs and demanding that the thread be deleted! Trying to silence another's beliefs does infringe upon their Constitutional rights, pure and simple! However, it seems more and more that even here in America, Christians are the only group that should not be allowed any public opinion!

I was reading an article about the common housefly. Ever notice how good they are at avoiding a fly swatter in mid air?

Their brain, about 1000 times smaller than a "pea" literally does a mathematical calculation to determine the trajectory and speed of the fly swatter and compares that answer to their own flight path to develop an avoidance solution.

It is an amazing feat that has been developed over billions of years of evolution.. but no supreme being ever played a part in the roll. (unless you count the guy with the fly swatter as a supreme being)...

I'm a bit disturbed at how quiet the non-believers are in this thread.. Many think they won't be accepted for thinking differently and that's a shame.

Many of my friends are deeply religious and I could care less. Its fun subject matter to debate but means nothing to me when one of them calls with car trouble at 2am.

Actually, I thought it was just some clever religious spam.. Had it come from a user who had been here for some time, I wouldn't have had the same reaction.

I have absolutely no problem with folks who believe.. In fact, I am fascinated by the thought process that compels others to believe and how those thought patterns differ between persons and belief systems.

That said, if you spout it off in a public place, please respect my right to challenge it in same.

God is amazing.

Yes God is amazing. Too amazing for me to get my mind around so I keep things simple.
I often pause for just a minute when I'm out in some wild and beautiful place and give my simple thanks.

Thank you for this beautiful day and for letting me be alive in it.

Whoever or whatever God is I think a simple expression of appreciation is well received.

Murby, if you break down that process of evolution down, you quickly see what it takes to get a life form--scads of improbable events over literally billions of years. Could it be entirely random chance, the product of a universe that simply had enough time for all of the astoundingly improbable occurences that result in a fly to occurr? Possibly.

Then again, it raises the kind of question that comes up if we were playing poker and I got dealt a royal flush four hands in a row. That's mathematically possible and happens to be far simpler than what it takes to get even a simple life form. I'm still guessing that you'd accuse me of stacking the deck.


Even if we accept what you say about believers being uneducated, it still leaves you with plenty of people who are highly educated who do believe. I am a monk and priest. I have three fellow monks who are PHDS in microbiology, one a PHD in nuclear physics, a couple dozen who hold various degrees in philosphy, and a number on theology. I'm working on my own PHD in history and have three masters degrees, and the equivalent of a philosphy degree.

We're catholics, and the intellectual tradition of the church extends 2,000 years. It means the idea of believers being uneducated comes crashing down. The Big Bang theory comes from a Catholic priest in the Vatican observatory, who decided Einsten had gotten something wrong. Pasteur was a Catholic, as was Gregor Mendel. Any Catholic university contains literally dozens of brilliantly educated, beliving Christians. There's a risk here of making yourself look foolish by typifying religious people as uneducated.

Now, I'd be interested in hearing about your last hunt....

Hi Father Forkhorn!
Nothing I love more for a good conversation than talking to one of the leaders of a religious faith. It's not often I encounter someone of such position who is willing to argue their side. Thank you for the opportunity. I just hope I don't get my non-believer butt kicked!! :biggrin:

The flaw in this statement is the word "improbable". The news media sneaks in words like that when they are reporting stories designed and slanted to elicit strong responses with the viewers. Rather than report the facts, they sneak in words designed to strengthen their version of the story, as opposed to sticking to the facts as much as they can. My personal favorite is how every gun used in a crime is a "High power firearm".. Sticking the word improbable in there is much the same.
If you simply left it at "if you break down that process of evolution down, you quickly see what it takes to get a life form" then you quickly see that the meaning changes.

Again with the sneaky set-up words. Try saying that sentence out loud without the words "astoundingly improbable" and you see it quickly changes its meaning to a more factual argument.

This is a misleading argument because it would depend completely on the conditions available for the life form to be created.
If you throw liquid water and the right organics into a melting pot, and then dose them with U.V light, life is going to be created in short order. However, remove the liquid water and now those four royal flushes look easy.
In this instance, I would not accuse you of stacking the deck.. More like comparing a known value (52 cards creating a specific pattern) to an unknown variable.

Yup.. I completely agree. But it is nearly impossible to filter out which ones pretend to gain acceptance and which truly believe.

Wow!! And I'm just a lowly engineer who's major hobby is reading about scientific advances. I feel out classed here.. I do not have a degree in philosphy but I do enjoy discussions based on philosophy.


Oh my.. I am flabbergasted that someone who claims to have so much education would even utter those words. "Intellectual tradition and church" should never be used in the same sentence together.
The real tradition of the church has been to burn people alive for being intellectuals under heresy laws. There's a rather large pile of intellectual human ashes out there.. Nice tradition..
And this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.. To someone who is uneducated, that statement is designed to resonate in their mind to hold the church up high.. when in fact it is the polar opposite that is actually true.
If it wasn't for modern day laws, the church would still be burning people alive.
The fact that you say you are working towards a PhD in history and then go and make that statement is a bit peculiar to me.


I believe the reverse is true and that you just made my point above.

Are you sure you don't mean Lemaitre??? What' interesting is that most think its Hubble. But I'm not a history buff..

As any prison contains dozens of highly educated people convicted of murder, but most would agree the vast majority of convicted murderers are uneducated.
The higher educated are the tiny minority and do not represent the overwhelmingly vast majority.
Your argument here is just strengthening what I said earlier.. The vast majority are uneducated.. those who are educated were mostly indoctrinated at an early age.. Their physical brain patters are hardwired for believing because it was intensively instilled at an early age while their brain was still developing. You call it catechism. Indoctrination is a tough cookie to crack.. This is why pedophiles prefer to "groom" their victims from an early age. Where do we see a lot of pedophiles?


You know what I would like to do? I'd like to walk into an inner-city church filled with the local population of African-American's who are doing their prayer thing and stand at the podium like a pasture and start discussing Leviticus 25:44-46.
Ya! Lets have a discussion on how the bible condones slavery as a divine institution. I wonder how that would go over!


Shot an 8 or 10 pointer but the arrow didn't penetrate far enough (3 to 4 inches).
Never thought in a million years that I would go on a manly forum and publicly announce that I am having penetration problems. :biggrin: But there it is!

I want to thank you again for your willingness to debate. I find that those who's faith and understanding is weak tend to run away quickly or become combative, while those with strong convictions come up with some pretty interesting answers.

Looks like they have found the "hot" acorn tree. Neat video. Thanks for sharing it.

Though it's not my emphasis, I've studied the middle ages and church history specifically. The fact is, burning at the stake is a much rarer thing than people realize, and much of that reputation came about from anti-Catholic polemics in the Reformation era--a propaganda attack from those in conflict with the church. A lot of it has no basis in fact. A good example, I'm told, is Fox's Book of Martyrs.

I can tell you as an historian that a lot of scholarship debunks the conventional wisdom that the church was out burning heretics left and right and that it was some bastion of ignorance. It's much more complicated and the church comes out looking pretty good, though not lilly white.

Remember, the modern university was preceded by the medieval ones, inevitably linked to the church. Prior to that, the monasteries were the centers of learning, enough so that they essentially preserved western culture through the dark ages after Rome fell. I'm not a medievalist, but that's scholarly consensus. A good read is Thomas Woods' "How the Catholic Church Built Civilization." It presents a reader-friendly tracing of the contributions to art, architecture, science, law, political theory, economics, etc. to western civilization.

You're an engineer. Did it ever occurr to you that Chatres cathedral was built by those that many want to deem a bunch of ignorant rubes? That should alert you to a distortion in popular conceptions of history.

A telling thing right now is that medievalists have been churning out an extraordinary amount of material showing the Catholic intellectual activity in that period. They're own field is at risk when it's asserted that the medieval era was nothing but ignorance. They can show otherwise and have been doing a lot of it lately to make sure their field of study is taken seriously.


It just happens that American slavery is one of my concentration areas. One of the interestig things is how slaves never bought into this and used chrisitanity to forge a resistance to their condition. They saw right through biblical justifications of slavery. Religion became a defense against slavery. It's a fascinating process. The bible also supplied abolitionists with their own weapons, among them loving your neighbor as yourself.

Thanks for the vid, I find God in all that is beautiful. Scientistis can't explain how the incredibly complex genetic code came about in the 1st single cell creatures. Kudos to the hunters that contribute to conservation (dominion over the beasts). Being educated, I find a)genetic mutation, b)random adaptation, and c)natural selection; useful in appreciating His creation, in a micro, not macro sense of course.

Father Forkhorn,

I can't argue the history of societies beliefs and all the minutia that goes along with that type of discussion. However, I am fully aware that history (as well as statistics) are heavily influenced by the agenda of the authors. (just read the political news for a few seconds)

What you said about the slaves dismissing parts of the bible makes absolutely no sense. But then, uneducated people have a tendency to make illogical choices.

I've always said, if the bible made mention of anything that humans could not have possibly conjured up in that era, I would be a believer today.
Yup.. just one mention of a "dark star" or a "black hole" or some other thing that we had no concept of back then, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I am always amazed, and a bit dismayed at our educational system, when a deeply religious person says "how can you explain this? or that?"... My personal favorite is the "missing link" and that it must have been god.. Ya, right up until I inform them that there is no missing link and we have a complete fossil record of human evolution.. I even had one guy tell me the devil put those bones there to fool us.. :happy0157: Way too funny for me to resist laughing.

So to someone like yourself, I ask: Where does your faith come from? What makes you believe in a God? And how do you reconcile the innumerable inconsistencies?

What will you think when we find life on another planet? Or when we confirm other intelligent life forms? And what if they had no concept of religion? Then what?

Do you have a line that would cause a paradigm shift in your belief system?

Murby, I typed a response and then stupidly disconnected myself and lost everything. It maybe a awhile before I bet back to this.

I have class the next few days. Sorry.

Yup.. been there, done that.... :throw:

These days, anything lengthy gets put onto notepad first.. Almost threw my whole computer out the window more than once.

Awesome video ol buddy

What a conundrum... I'm taking comfort in the fact that I'm not the only one that has had such experiences... Yet I feel bad for taking comfort in that...:sad0064:

"complete fossil record of human evolution" doesn't exist. Every 20 years or so, some bones are found and the news makes a big ado over finding the 'missing link.' When I was a kid, it was "Lucy." A brief search into these numerous finds, that suppossedly prove the missing link, results in only hopeful claims and more questions. No bones today have been found showing apes from trees trasitioning to upright 2 legged creatures that then became modern man.

Darwin clearly stated the limitations of his "Theory." See my signature for his quote. Modern microbiology meets the standards set forth by the The Orgin of Species author. Dozens of sub systems such as the Calvin Cycle of Photosynthesis are well beyond what Darwin considered the absolute breakdown of his theory in the macro sense.

I don't see a hunting forum as the ideal place to debate this, but good grief, leave us the freedom of appreciating nature and hunting in beloved traditional expressions without having to put up with busy body polictally correct intrusion.

Loved viewing the vid, yes God is Amazing.

This debate reminded me of an article I read a couple of years ago in National Geographic Magazine so I finally looked it up.

This article is a little over 2 years old so there may be updates, but as far as I can tell as of August 2011 there was no complete fossil record of human evolution. Tho admittedly this fossil find is interesting in that regard.

Malapa Fossils - Pictures, More From National Geographic ...

Murby, if you've got data to dispute this I look forward to reading/studying it.

Seriously? I really don't mean to offend or show disrespect for your beliefs, everyone has them, but if you want to argue god, please keep it on a philosophical level because you clearly don't understand or have a grasp of the science.

Even the Vatican acknowledges the science.. then they coyly say that its ok to reject the science if you want to... (Read: "we think most of you are too stupid to understand so just continue as normal and keep sending us your money).

Science has disproved god at every step.. and each time they do, the pyramid scammers.. umm.. I mean church, will adjust their preaching and move the proverbial goal post a bit further out so as to preserve the inflow of believer cash.

"you clearly don't understand or have a grasp of the science"
For those interested, and understandably many of you aren't, here's some interesting reading. If you are, umm, oh so serious and don't have much hunting to look forward to in the near future, one could note the scientists (who usually 'have a grasp of the science') at the end of the article and read further. Well reasoned counter-opinions are abundant.
https://thehomeschoolpress.wordpress...g-link-theory/
Then try to imagine Charles Darwin getting transported to modern times and getting to study the "flagellum" just the tail of a sperm cell; which is a 100 times more powerful and resilient than any material mankind can come up with!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellum
Wow, I hope my 5 acres looks like that someday!
I'm dropping out of this thread, good-bye

"Theory," the theory of evolution is just that! An unproven theory! A theory that takes more "faith" to believe in than the faith it would take to believe in God!
We have been told here that science has disproved God several times, but so far all we have is what we've been told! No actual facts to back anything up!

[QUOTE=mbruizer187;4092872]Its not that Murb, just some of us non-believers are 1. not so good at debate. 2. know that it won't change a thing. That is the beauty of their beast. millions could die for no apparent reason and its ok because god works in mysterious ways, or this life is just the beginning of the life we were really meant for in heaven. :violin: , but as soon as something good or beautiful happens in your life you should stop bow down and thank him for being so graciuos and kind.

Catholic born and raised, church every Sunday, alter server, until i was old enough to think for myself.

There isn't anything to "disprove". There is just no sign of existence. God is, and always has been, man made. Sorry. I wish it weren't true, but it is.

Wow.. It is rare when I find someone who was indoctrinated and was able to break free of it. It takes a strong mind to do that.

Thank you for speaking up..

I don't think arguing the meaning of a word, or how it is used in modern language, is going to be very useful in the overall debate.

That screams "I was indoctrinated!!" Did you go to catechism? Or did your home have symbols of church and god in every room from the time of your birth?

One of the first signs of indoctrination is the complete and total dismissal of science. Of course, the subconscious brain knows better and will run to the hospital and ask that all that science be used to its fullest power to save your life when its really needed.

I always find it interesting when a creationist argues against evolution and then goes to the gas station and fills up on fossil fuels... :bash:

My first response to this would be to say: Really? Turn that statement around and see how it works out.

My next response, and the one for which I think you were seeking:
If you are suggesting that you want me to start enumerating the factual science data that backs up my side of the debate, I'm not going to do that.
If there's something specific that comes up, fine.. but I have to assume that you and your side are already familiar with the science, for if you are not, you are basically taking place in a debate for which you know nothing about. You may as well go find a forum dealing with quantum physics and start in over there too.

Again, this goes back to my earlier post.. Lack of education, indoctrination, or agenda.. Its almost always one or more of the three.

One of the best reasons I have ever heard for the belief in god was when someone said to me "I believe because it gives me comfort"...

Setting aside the fact that such a statement is akin to an ostrich sticking its head in the sand, you can not dismiss or argue away the reasoning behind it.

Ummm... I've noticed that you didn't reply to my post disputing this... Do you skip over posts that prove you wrong?

He skips everything that he has no answer for! Show us any more proof of evolution than proof of God! I at least can say that there is little "scientific" proof of God! God requires "faith!" Jesus told Thomas; "blessed are those who have not seen, but believe!"
You have shown NOTHING to prove evolution either! The only thing that you've done is make perverse insinuations as to my upbringing! You, for as smart as you claim to be, trampled the OP's First Amendment rights, demanding that this thread be deleted! P.S. I am not Catholic, and religion has nothing to do with being a Christian! I do see by your hatred of the Catholic Church that you may have been (you know what) as a child! Oops, I have not perfected turning the other cheek yet!

What post disputing what?

Wow.... And they allow you to have a weapon to hunt with?

As stated you have NOTHING new to offer, DA..........!

I'm impressed that you can use a keyboard!

I'll bet they make you wear a padded helmet though!

JagMagMan,
It is unfortunate that you are so upset. I'm not sure why you are upset but trying to debate something is much better done when one has an objective attitude.

Perhaps a "time out" for some retrospect and familiarization would be in order.

He shouldn't have to. Evolution by natural selection has already been "proven" to the degree that anything we accept as scientific "fact" is. In other words, he shouldn't have to offer "proof" of evolution any more than he should have to provide "proof" of bacteria. The only reason the reality of evolution by natural selection is "debated" at this point is because some people feel threatened by the idea.

You can find people arguing about this stuff all over the internet. I usually pass on these discussions, but I find the context here kind of interesting. A hunter of all people should have a solid understanding of evolution, natural selection, and related concepts. A hunter without Darwin is like a rocket scientist without Newton.

Just an idea: save religion for when you really need it and, in the meantime, pick up a copy of the Origin of Species (there are PDF copies all over the internet). It represents one of the real triumphs of human thought and will give you a deeper understanding of both yourself and the animals you hunt. Darwin put an absurd amount of thought into this book. It's a very entertaining and enlightening read--some of his reasoning is extremely clever. If it's not to your taste, take comfort in the fact that, halfway through it, Darwin will have presented so much clear evidence for natural selection being the primary mechanism of evolution that any intellectually honest man should be embarrassed to deny it.

Yes, I know you can go to websites where intelligent religious people have cobbled together a quasi-scientific "proof" that "evolution is false", etc. You can say that about many things--that they are the subject of websites where intelligent religious people construct a sort of alternate reality where certain scientific ideas they find objectionable are re-interpreted in ways that usually depend on a simple misunderstanding or misconception. I don't visit these websites except for very occasional and somewhat morbid entertainment purposes.

I am not "anti-religion" or any such thing. I think God is real if only as a concept and I think many people truly need him. That's how I think religion should work. I think religion should be saved for what you really need it for. Like when someone dies or gets married. Special occasions that actually fill some kind of real cultural need. Holidays. Can you imagine how the general state of man in the world would improve if every religious human decided to be no more religious than this? To not take it any farther or more seriously?

If you either don't understand evolution or think it is false/disproven/etc., I would start with Wikipedia's nontechnical article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_evolution

But, once again, the Origin of Species is still the most compelling "plain language" case for evolution.

My question was pretty straight forward, and the link I provided earlier in this thread disputes your claim that there is a complete fossil record of human evolution.

If you can provide proof of that complete fossil record that would be great, but from what I gathered from the article I posted that debate seems to still be going on within the scientific community that is studying the fossils.

Ah.. that..
The first problem with the "complete fossil record" argument is that you must first define what is considered "complete" and one could easily set the standard so high it can not be achieved.
The second problem is that it has already been decided. Just another goal science conquered and another example of the church moving the goal posts.

No one is arguing about the fossil record.. its been decided.. even the Vatican acknowledges it. (not that the Vatican means anything to me but it should for all the creationist).

Anyone who argues the fossil record and sticks to a creationist theory is not even worth arguing with. Wise man said "Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with stupidity".

I was (mistakenly?) under the impression that you posted that as general info for others.. To be honest, I read about 1/2 a page and left for it wasn't relevant to my side of the issue.

Did you intend to argue creationist theory?????

Since I believe in evolution, I wouldn't be able to make a very compelling argument for creationist theory. That said I also have faith/belief in a higher power.

The reason I looked up the article was because of your absolute statement that there is a complete fossil record of human evolution. A statement you have yet to prove. I'm not sure of your qualifications to make such a statement, so I don't want to sell your claim short. The article, had you read it, clearly shows that even those who work in the fields of locating, and determining the results of fossil recovery are still debating those results, and what they actually represent.

It seems as though you've made your determination of what is "complete", but some who work in the fields of making those determinations have not.:confused0024:

I'm an engineer, not a paleontologist so I'm no expert in that field..

I have however seen and read numerous documentaries that show the progression to upright walking, then to our current state.
In fact, a paleontologist can simply look at a bone and determine how much upright walking a species did by the wear patterns on the joints. Couldn't be more clear for me, and I think for others too.. (including many experts).

So let me ask you,
What makes you believe in a higher power (God) ??
Did you go to catechism? Parents deeply religious? What reasoning do you use to make the determination that a god exists?

(I am relieved that you are not a creationist.. they're not playing with a full deck of cards.)

Murby,

I have a 5 minutes before class and will try to clarify.

Slaves often got a kind of half gospel/half bible from whites. It mentioned things like the line Leviticus and "slaves obey your masters." They were much less likely to hear story of Moses and God setting a race of slaves free.

Slaves were very insistent on hearing all of it. If they weren't hearing it from white ministers they either listened to their own or even learned to read (many did this secretly). Many a slave attended a secret bible service in the woods or out in the swamp.

A great book with a section on slave religion: Roll, Jordan, Roll by Eugene Genovese. Huge, but a classic.

It makes me sad to see some of the kinds of statements made in this thread. There really is no conflict between belief and science, unless you create the conflict yourself.

I was raised Shinto and accepted the Catholic faith when I married. I didn't abandon Shinto but just incorporated it into the Catholic tradition.

I am also a Ph.D. candidate in biology, more specifically neuroembryology, so I am also quite immersed in science.

We believe in a creator we call amenominakanushi no kami. The creator is not only responsible for the origin of the entire universe, but also life itself. This creator is also present in all of us and in every other thing as well, even non-living. I think these beliefs are common to all Christian faiths as well.

Now evolution does nothing to disprove the existence of the creator. It merely explains the process by which all the various species came to be. It is not really true that there is a complete fossil line from the first classified primate to man, but there is enough evidence to demonstrate quite clearly that we, and the rest of the primate species, are all descended from a common ancestor.

But this does not prove or disprove the existence of the creator. We know the creator from our hearts, not from our thinking or from our knowledge of philosophy.

My husband taught me to hunt. We are teaching our older daughter (she's five) now to hunt. When we take an animal's life we wait and take time to thank the animal's soul for giving us its life. The soul of the animal continues on after its life here ends just as ours will. This is true even if you don't believe it. ;)


:sheep:
May The Sheep Be With You

Creationist don't accept the science that says we evolved. So when someone brings the science to them it creates "those kinds of statements"...

Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't Shinto more of a practice of respect and tradition than a practice of a religious based belief in a higher power?
Japan has a top notch educational system and they are some pretty highly educated folks. I don't know you, but something tells me your acceptance of Catholic faith is more of an avoidance of conflict for the greater good of the marriage.

I'm just saying that from what I understand of Japanese religion, its not what we westerners consider a religion when we think about the subject.

Or am I all mixed up on that? I'm not all that familiar with it....

I did a bit of wiki reading on amenominakanushi no kami.... An interesting tradition and faith.. Doesn't seem like the typical god based religion.

Yes, actually it does.. It may not do anything to your Shinto, but it completely contradicts the catholic faith. Adam and Eve? Earth created in 6, rested on 7? Among others, very specific and very wrong.
Was your Shinto belief system always the same? Or was it updated to reflect new science in our modern times?

Careful, there are those in this forum who can not handle the fact that they are basically intellectual monkeys. Don't worry, I'm not one of them..

Ya.. I had hope for you earlier..:biggrin: Does the Shinto really push that way of thinking so strongly? I didn't get a sense of that when I was reading about it.

While I believe respecting the animal, not so sure about the continuing life thing. So when life continues, then what?

Here's a couple things to ponder...
1) If life in heaven is so great, why do people fight so hard to live as long as they can? Why not live the most exciting, dangerous and adventurous life you can? Live fast, die young and go to heaven to enjoy the ever after?

2) The ever after.. think about this hard. how long does the ever after last? Do you die there too? Then what? And if the ever after really is "forever", wouldn't you get bored? I mean, it might be really cool for a while.. new stuff, new experiences, etc etc etc.. but forever is a long long time.. Even after a geological blip of a few ten thousand years I would think one would get so bored they'd want to off themselves. Where does it end?

The imagination is the limit and, as humans, our imagination can take us pretty far sometimes. But that doesn't make it real or true.

Thank you for ringing in to this thread. Your perspective is new and different and that is what I like most.