Ethics question
 

Here is the situation. This past weekend we were at our camp, my son hit a doe and there was significant bleeding. It ran onto our neighbor's posted property. I then called this neighbor, spoke to his wife and explained the situation, she indiciated her husband was hunting locally and he would get back to me - we are at 72 hours and waiting, still no response. My son was initially upset but I utilized this as an opportunity to speak to him about ethically challenged people.

A bit of history on our "freindly neighbor" - we are absoultely prohibited from hunting on his property (which has less acerage and much worse deer cover than ours), we have previously told them via certified letter, since we are not allowed to hunt on their proprerty they are prohibited from hunting on our property. This came to a head when on a Sunday afternoon (when we are usually gone) I caught his son and a pal about to climb into treestands on our property. Since then I have not caught them on our prperty, but the son has appeared on several of our trailcams (he is not particulary photogenic). In any event I know this is your standard case of the locals (them) wanting to set the rules and have the out-of-towners (us), who pay property and school taxes and do not avail themselves of the services, live by the rules. I guess they are sort of like politicians in that they feel no need to live by their own rules. By the way I do have mutual agrrements with all of my other neighbors regarding permission to retreive wounded animals.

Anyway, apologies on being a bit long-winded, just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this issue.

well, you have certified mail, and pictres of them on your property and witnesses, personally i would prosecute, but you could also let them know that you dont want to do that and explain to hem that if the situation continues like it is currently you will have no choice but to prosecute

I agree, let them know you have proof of their trespassing.

I would of just went and got the deer, that is, if I had proof of them on my land.

I would have went to get it at night or midday so as not to f'up their hunt. Or call the CO, explain the situation, and go get the deer. Too bad you had to let it rot.

Ya can't do it. You have no permission to gain access to their property, no matter if they have trespassed on your property or not. IMHO, they are unrelated.
I certainly would show proof to the other land owner and try to have a future understanding of what might happen if they continue to trespass.

Sure you can. You speed on the road don't ya? You don't have permission to do it. But you are willing to take the risk of the consequences. Same here. I have walked onto a ladies land before getting a deer. She has raised a fit. I tell her just call the law and I will pay the consequences. Pay the $75 dollar fine and move on. DNR shows up and hears the story. He rolls his eyes at the lady and said he has better things to do and walks off.

After no reply after 24 hours, you should have called the CO, game warden or whatever they're called in your area. Explain and show him your blood proof and he may have let you on their property. Some states have laws where people ARE allowed to go onto private property to search for a wounded deer.

Have your son be proud. He got a deer. Congratulations! The only thing is that an idiotic land owner didn't let him access property to retrieve it. Your son should keep hunting and enjoy the rest of the season.

I WOULD press charges for the trespassing. It's obvious the neighbor kids have no respect for you... none at all. You will have to show them a valuable lesson in life, that there are consequences to our actions. It's your decision, but I feel responsibility to call the authorities and press charges.

If you don't press charges, then your post here is just an empty rant. Follow through on what's right. Kids that disrespect the laws here are often the ones who grow up doing more of the same. If they get a trespassing ticket by having to go to court, maybe they'll step back and consider their actions as being wrong... something they can learn by.

And further, the father is also exuding a big lack of respect for you because he hasn't even shown any consideration for you or your son to let you on his property.

Press charges.

iSnipe

Well here in NH, if you trespass during hunting season with full knowledge that the owner has either posted his/her land or told you directly, then the NH Fish and Game can be involved with criminal trespassing. A hefty fine may be involved as well as loss of license and criminal tresspassing stays on your record.

Would you still take that chance?

Yep, instead of watching a deer go to waste. Its just a licences for one year. I would take those consequences. In most states, trespassing is usually only $75 to 200 dollars and is a mis One suggestion before you do it. Take your guns/bows back to the house before you do it. And is not a felony if its just your first time. Even in NH.

definitely woulda just gone and got the deer...i mean you sent certified mail sayin he cant be on your property, was this after this incident? so you cant expect him to call you back now lol...wars between neighbors will never die...as for his son, well depends on how ya want to handle it, cause thats all that will be done about it.

I know its after the fact, but as soon as it went on the property I would have contacted the ECO about the deer. They cannot give you permission to go after it by yourself, but they can, with you present (they sure as hell arent going to gut it and drag it). No room for anyone to get unduly riled or worry about consequences.

There is no way I would have left that deer to rot. If it was a good hit and I didn't think it went far, I would have went in right away, otherwise after not getting an answer I would have gone in after dark.

Not in NY - if the landowner says no, the ECO can do noting legally. I have a neighbor who under no conditions will be allowed access for any reason ever. We have recipical recovery (contact 1st if its not a simple recovery) with the other 5 bordering properties.

they've been on yours to hunt deer, simply unethically and illegally. You shot one on your property and it went onto theirs. You have an ethical obligation to go and find that deer. If you didn't know the people, you did the right thing. But unfortunatly, you've had a rough time. Ethics first, bone collecting second.

Really not an issue! Your son LOST his deer, simple as that. Private land is just that... PRIVATE.

You shouldn't EVER assume that anyone should allow you to tromp around their private property while you search for your deer.

Here in Illinois, no one can enter your property to pursue or search for wounded game, regardless of wether it's posted or not. I like it that way and for that reason our property is strictly PRIVATE! I'm not allowing anyone to cross my fence. My best advice to them is this.... you shouldn't have been hunting close enough to my property line for your deer to cross in the first place and if it did go a long ways... you're probably not going to recover it anyway.

Goodness, thats an aweful state of affairs there. Just aweful. For hunters and for yourself.

Bigcountry,

"Those that refuse to obey the laws of the land also refuse to obey God"
Romans 13:2

I don't refuse too. Just accept I am willing to pay the consequences. A good Christian must be good stewards of the land and animals. This is clear.

Everythign has a price. For instance, I have hunted near Camp David. Would I dare retrieve a deer that was able to jump the fence (if even possible?) Heck no. I sure want to recover the deer. But not at those consequences. He's going to have to rot. I feel bad for him.

when it happens, I explain to everyone, that I understand they got to do what they got to do. And I will gladly give my name and address, send the authorities there.

I believe anytime you take up hunting, and let an arrow go, you have an obligation to that animal.

Have you read in Luke and others when the leaders of the law accused Jesus Christ of sin for decipsles getting heads of grain on the sabbath? He, our God and King, explained it is what is in your heart. If you want to live under the law, you got to live under the whole law.

That's just ridiculous.

iSnipe

Here where I am in illinois we always try to recover a wounded deer.All it takes is a phone call or visit to anyone of the neighbors.And alot of times they will help you look for the deer.I can not even imagine not trying to recover a wounded animal.

Mike

I'm not sure i don't agree with the premise of hunting so close to the property line of a known neighbour who would refuse access in the event of a wounded animal??? I'm not saying I agree with what he said or how he said it but the underlying thought isn't that crazy. I have had the exact same situation where the neighbours made no bones if I stepped on his property they'd have me charged. In all cases I have chose other locations that wouldn't put me into such a situation. Why play with fire?? Here the letter of the law is if you can prove the animal was hit prior to crossing the property line you can retrieve it with a CO/DNR ******. No permission or CO ****** is trespassing, even if you can show it was taken legally (the landowner has the power to say charge or no charge!).

You did the right thing you asked permission to follow up on a wounded deer. Prior transgressions don't give you the right to even the score. You also did right by not just going anyway. The situation itself sucks and feel bad for you, your son and the lost deer. Hopefully you can come to some sort of agreement or understanding for the future.

Best of Luck

You did the right thing but I would pass copies of the tape to the father of the two trespassing sons and then try once again for permission to recover a killed animal on his land. If says no them inform him you are taking the tapes to the local authorities with the entire story. I know that they will be very supportive of you since you took the high road and I'm sure that they would take a trip to your neighbour's property to warn them of future trespassing charges. It is at all time better to be the better human being and not the lesser as well as it will provide an excellent example for your son.

You did it the right way. The law is involved here and the man, however unsavory and hypocritical, has a right to keep individuals off his property.

What you're really talking about here is whether or not you should practice civil disobedience. In the situation you've described, the answer is No. Since this is not a case of an unjust law, we have to obey it. (This is not to say the law could not be improved).

The other factor to consider is that trespassing causes damage to property rights, weakens security, and creates disorder in society. It's good to recover a deer, but the benefits don't outweigh these negatives.

Someone here suggested that this is like Jesus setting aside the Old Testament law, so it would be ok to do it here. As a pastor, I'd say that is a misunderstanding what Jesus was doing. First, as Son of God, he had the authority to do so. A hunter standing at a fenceline looking at another man's property does not.

Secondly, Jesus was dealing legal precepts intended by God to be temporary and no longer needed. He was also disposing of various interpretations of the law that were being given undue weight by the religious leaders.

In the part of Illinois where I own land and hunt, I know of only one person, out of dozens of landowners, who will not let people on his land to recover a deer, and he is widely considered to be a jerk. But it is not illegal to be a jerk.

As for hunting near property lines, I've yet to meet a deer hunter who goes out of their way to place their stand at the point furtherest from other neighboring properties, especially if there are better spots near a property line. Even if they did, a deer hit pretty hard still run several hundred yards in some instances which will easily take them off a 100+ acre tract of land. However, as Skeeter says, you are sort of asking for trouble if you are hunting close to a property line where you know for a fact that they are A-holes who are not gonna let you on their land.

Where I grew up, people tend to obey the law. However, when you have someone who is clearly being a hypocrite, then most aren't going to bother asking permission, they are just gonna go get their deer. Not apologizing for it, that's just the way it is.

As usual fork, as most "religious leaders" I notice they go to legalism. Most leaders just can't get away from the law. Christ warned us, Paul warns us, John warns us. I have seen it so many times with "leaders". I don't think it starts that way, but for most it ends that way.

But as Jesus Christ clearly pointed out with the example of David eating the bread in the temple, its about what is in your heart. And he is the ultimate leader. And everything he said is right and just. But as you and I are human, everything we say is not so. You could be in error here. And I believe with these examples Jesus Christ gave us. I think you are. I would never say "I know" as you have showed in your post. Because we are human, and not perfect.

If I sit on a property line, and I decide to persue a deer, with the thought in my head that I wish no ill will towards the property owner. Nor destruction of his property. Then I believe in my heart I am being a good steward of the animals God has given us all to eat. Now, in my heart, if I have evil thoughts and desires like I do care if the land owner is upset. Or I do not care about his rights, I just want my deer.

There obviously is more going on here in this post than just retriveing the deer. If the orig poster felt the need to send a certified letter, then that opens the door for problems. Not a smart move. I have a neighbor who is like this. They have an ongoing feud with the adjacent neighbors. Certified letters going back and forth. All over a right of way and trespassing. So I just purchased a chunk of heaven behind them. The first neighbor comes to me and explains no way i will get neighbor two to sign a contract giving me legal right of way because of his issues with him. Tells me he's a bad guy.

I figured respect goes a long way. I give them both respect. So I go to neighbor 2 and instantly he signs my contract, for free. Said he was glad to help and considers me a friend. Neighbor 1 was furious. And what boggles me is how he cannot figure why neighbor 2 wouldn't do the same for him. Even though he is the one who started with certified letters.

ill-cornbred...are you serious? Don't be hunting so close to someone elses property, as to prevent the deer from going onto neighboring land? Wow.

it looks to be 50/50 as far as responses goes...if your ethics wont allow you to recover the deer, then dont...if your ethics do...then do!! that simple...everyone's ethics are different

I agree. They are unrelated. And there is no way in heck I'm NOT going after that deer. I'll pay the consequences, but I'm not letting a deer that I decided to end it's life rot in the woods someplace because I can't walk what is probably 100 yards or less on their land. I'd extend the same courtesy to anyone else no matter how much I may or may not like them.

Actually, interesting situation last season. We've had several run ins with one of our neighboring properties. There is a little bad blood between us from past experiences. To make a long story short here's what happened.

I was sitting in my stand fairly close to bordering property. I hear a shot from the neighboring land and about a minute later see the deer that was hit cross onto my land and bed down about 150-200 yards in front of me still alive but hurting unit (gut shot). About 10 minutes later I see orange behind me following a blood trail (the neighbors). I get up and wave my orange to catch their attention and wave and signal to them to wait and point to let them know i see THEIR deer. The one guy is only 50 yards from me so I motion for him to quietly walk towards my stand. I let him know whats up and tell him to hang tight and don't move.

I decided that we should sneak out of there and backtrack through their land to not push the deer and come back for it later. We met at our lodge later and I drove to our land and walked to where the deer bedded down (shorter walk than through his land). The deer was laying dead where I last saw it and recovered.

If I wanted to be an a-hole i would have watched them keep going after it and push it to never find it again. Or I could have denied them to come on my land and take the deer myself. Neither of which I had any intentions of doing and both would have been ridiculous.

Now we have a mutual friendship and understanding about recovering deer on eachothers lands.

Sounds like a good "Old fashion ****'n contest" I am not sure what I would have done but I probly would have left my firearm behind and recovered the animal, even if prosecuted, first time would most likely be a stern warning,.

I don't know if you have tried this or not but why not invite the guy over for a beer and try and get a working relationship worked out, who knows he might be a nice guy, who know you might become "Buddies" (although I dought it) but it doesn't hurt to try. Good Luck Den

Any landowner that will not allow a unarmed hunter to be ******ed by a CO in the recovery of a wounded animal that was shot on permissible property and fled to the land owner's imperissible property is nothing more then a grade a Ahole and is allowing his or her personal pride and authority to allow this deer to go unrecovered.

Many times these properties are shut off because the property owners were tired of finding unrecovered carcasses from hunters that they once allowed on the property. Now their stuborness is allowing a deer to rot. Talk about hypocritical.

In my neck of the woods our hunting is confined primarily to small woodlots in farmcountry where most people don't have a chioce but to hunt close to some adjacent property because that one woodlot may actually be three tracts of land with three different owners such as the land that I've been hunting for ten years. Thankfully with no problems.
This thread has definitely been an interesting read!!

I think if you go on someone's property trailing a deer without the owner's consent or knowledge and purposely violating a trespassing law, then you have NO respect for another person's rights.

If it were me, I'd first contact the owner. If he says "No", then I contact the warden.

If the warden can't help me by being there as an enforcer/middle man, then I'm SOL, but I tried.

A man still has his rights to his property he's paying taxes on and if he wants to be an ass about letting people on his property for this scenario, then he's the one with the problem and I'm not going to escalate a situation by violating a trespass law. I have at least that much respect for his ownership. However, back in the day, I did say f'it and looked for someone's deer for them. LOL! Times change, opinions change. This is so on-the-fence for me, my opinion may be different next year.

Trespass is the intrusion onto another's property withOUT the right.

iSnipe

I don't hesitate to cross a fence to recover a deer. If I were to ask permission and was denied, I would just go and get it anyway, so there is no point in asking. Having said that, I don't think anyone I border would have a problem with it anyway.

Not here in Montana or Alberta. It is illegal to waste wildlife. That means if the CO informs the landowner that theirs a dead deer on there property, the land owner can be cited for wasting wildlife if its not retrieved. Kinda dirty tactics but its been used up here before.

Bobby

If that were cited against me, I'd simply say "Prove it."

The evidence of blood crossing a fenceline is no proof of a dead deer and I'd warn the warden I'd have no problem seeing him in court if he made that decision. All of course, if I were an ass about it. Of course I'd let the hunters on my property, but first, I'd be there. I'd also get them to sign liability release papers or I'll search for them myself. Protecting myself and family against liability suits is priority over everything else.

iSnipe

I like canada's style on this. I wish more states would take wasted wildlife more seriously.

People who seek permission prior to needing it and appear to be responsible hunters who respect our property are allowed recovery rights. They must call 1st as we do for them. This is an indication they take their hunting seriously enough to be prepared - and knowing what you can do after the shot is part of proper preperation.

All others are denied access and all legal methods will be used to stop them.

This is by no means a legalism. It goes back to the ancient Greeks and the church dealt with issues like this from the beginning. Obligation to civil authority is acknowledged by Jesus himself in the "render unto ceasar" remark and his acknowledgment that Pilate bears a legitimate authority.

The question is really about knowing when one can disobey a law. There are instances when you can and cannot, and its vital to know the distinctions because if its done incorrectly, it leads to anarchy.

Some serious biblical sholarship on this passage would benefit you. "What is in your heart" was not the basis for David's actions, nor for Jesus' acceptance of them. The real basis was the intent and purpose of the precept. That particular injunction was highly restricted in its scope to concerns about proper honor to God in Jewish religious ritual.

It simply isn't the case that this passage auhorizes someone to disobey a legitimate civil law. There's nothing in the passage to suggest that Jesus was giving anyone that kind of authority. There are certainly instances where civil law can be set aside, but this passage doesn't indicate that. The example is really about the role of the old law in the new covenant.

Be sure that you don't compare apples and oranges. Civil law and the Old Law are not the same thing. They're very different and the bases for setting them aside are very diferent as well. When Martin Luther King and Ghandi did it, they didn't refer back to passages like this; they referred back to precepts that were much more universal.

so in essence, this is kinda a true statement, and good advise...

"Really not an issue! Your son LOST his deer, simple as that. Private land is just that... PRIVATE.

You shouldn't EVER assume that anyone should allow you to tromp around their private property while you search for your deer.

Here in Illinois, no one can enter your property to pursue or search for wounded game, regardless of wether it's posted or not. I like it that way and for that reason our property is strictly PRIVATE! I'm not allowing anyone to cross my fence. My best advice to them is this.... you shouldn't have been hunting close enough to my property line for your deer to cross in the first place."