Trebarker;

Go back and check the posts again. I know you very much disagree with me, however you cannot deny the substance of the posts. I also did not question anyones sportsmenship nor did I engage in any name calling to anyone else on the board.

I know you find this hard to believe, but I DO have friends that bowhunt (some of them are the best bowhunters I know of), I have yet to have anyone of them call me a bowbasher or lacking of sportmans ship. Do they agree with me, not all of them, some more than others, and some not at all. But they ALL respect my view point and don' t resort to name calling or questioning my ehtics. They also see a lot of merit in what I have.

Did I bring into question some of the people and ethics of the beaucracy - certainly. I will continue to do so until the answers begin to make sense.

Pot calling the kettle black? Your first post here was taking MarkIIVT to task. You were also the first to accuse others of being uninformed and you defended a double sandard as common sense pratice. While I would bet you are extremely knowlegeable and you have had some excellent responses with me and others on this board, so far from what you have posted I don' t see alot of creditable arguments that one could really sink his teeth into.

Dave

Randy,

I talked with an att' y. about this. He is positive it does assign the prosecution duty to the CA and DA after a person is charged. Who did you get your interp. from? I can ask and get a true legal stand on it, but it will cost about $200.00 to get that statement. The other Agencies dealing with shared resources are given the same type of assistance and burden put on the CA and DA for prosecution after charging. THis is common in Responsible Party designation when cleaning UST or contaminated sites. It also assigns a portion of civil due process.

Ruger, if your bowhunting friends are on the net, have them read this entire thread and respond their opinion of the posts. If they are truly committed bowhunters, they will see the samething I see in your posts. Sorry but the only substance to your entries are that you and other centerfire hunters want to be able shoot mulies every year, and want to hunt in October and November with little or no consideration for the effect on the resource. Your main argument is about being " fair" , that argument carries on playgrounds, not in the adult world. If you truly care about the deer, deer hunting opportunities, and the future of the sport, IMO you and several others need to consider what the real issues are right now, retaining what we have left and curbing the commercial trend.

Dana, I worked as a LEO for 11 years, and know how to read statutes. Cas and Da' s are sworn to enforce the laws of the state, but are not limited in how far they take the prosecution. They are given discretion in how the case is handled, such as has been displayed by the Smith Co. CA. KDWP legal staff in Pratt will answer the question without fee. My attorney is a gun hunter, as are members of our local CA office. I will have them look at these. I assure you they only direct what is to happen IF they prosecute.

Trebarker;

You' re dead wrong about us NOT CARING about the resourse and you' re dead wrong about us wanting to be guarnteed Mulie tags every year. That is NOT what the issue is about.

You are dead RIGHT about the commercialization issues.

Dave

Okay, you care about the resource so you must understand that rifle season is restricted for management reasons, you do not want more access to the Any Deer Tags, then what is your issue? NoMercy started this thread, it appears he felt the extended season was started so rifle hunters would have a longer season to fill tags. His next entry said he filled his tags early(why' s he complaining???)but his friends had to work. Thats what they make vacation days for. They cannot please everyone, and expecting them to cater to anything but what best protects the deer resource' s health is anti resource.

Trebarker;

Why don' t we go back to some time proven management pratices:

-Get every hunter back into the draw and into the associated DMU' s - If you don' t return your hunter harvest report then you will not be able to draw the next seasons tags until you provide the data need by the dept.

-Go back to weapon specific tags. This needs to be done to cut down on the hunter trafiic in a lot of areas. This maybe a more necessary thing from a saftey stand point, more time afield for some hunters may have to take a backseat on this issue to alleviate dangerously high levels of hunter traffic during the firearms season. With the limited land access problem that we have in this state, this may be a serouis option to consider.

-Add a new " shortrange" season opening 2 weeks prior to firearms season for handgun, blackpowder and crossbow. This gives a larger oppertunity to hunt with other weapon types without competing with the harvesters (or the drive hunters) that use rifle, the side benefit of this would be spreading the hunter traffic load of the opening of the regular firearms season. That would provide for a safer hunt with a higher level of quality time afield. This goes along with the previous paragraph. This idea would be a very valuable new tool in spreading the traffic. Again because of the possible increase in saftey this maybe another important point to consider.

-Close the January seasons and do away with those game tags. If more time afield means a management pratice like this, I' m not sure it is worth it. If someone really wants to take or has to settle with a doe they can do that in their regular season.

-Computerize/automate the lottery draw system to cut cost on operating, and that will help to provide data form the hunt realtime on the dept website. That data will keep all the interested deer hunters appraised of the harvest and exactly how it is affecting the overall herd(quantity, quality and structure).

These are just ideas and, I believe a common sense approach that will go along way to restoring faith in the dept and the deer management pratices. The continual deregulation of the requirements for bow with ever tighening requirement for NR hunters and Res firearms hunters bring on a look of favoritism - whether it is there or not.

I know a lot of bowhunters do not like these ideas, some of them are of the opnion that it is nothing more than takeaways. I think any true hunter can see value in at least some of these ideas. While I would like to, I cannot take credit for all of these ideas. They are a culmination of ideas form other hunters afield. These ideas were also presented to the deer management working group, the dept and the commission.

Sometimes we all must take a step back before we can proceed.

Dave

Dave,

I too would like to see KDWP return to DMU management principles, deal with overpopulation complaints in the areas reporting them only. I don' t see it or the all hunter drawing happening again. None of the supposed problems we have today existed 8 yrs ago, then a market was opened for Kansas Deer.

I would support the draw idea, if and when they have a actual count of the herd and can properly determine problem areas that would require such a move. Obviously units in Eastern Kansas stand the chance of seeing more pressure than units further West, etc.

Weapon specific tags? They are pretty specific now.

The short range season would have to include bows before I would support it, they are the shortest range of all. The BP hunters already have Sept early hunt, can use their weapon during regular rifle season and the late season, so I feel they have enough time already. I can understand the desire for handgun hunting outside the regular FA season. I will never support crossbows/drawlocs in the archery season, they are not bows, I don' t care how anyone wants to try and explain them.

Amen on closing the January season, and game tags. Too many deer have been taken already. I would also add the T-tags to the chopping block, no one individual should have the right to profit(be involved in selling tags)off a public resource.

Yes on upgrading the draw system, glad they final included PP system. They need to upgrade their website, too slow.

I can' t stress to you enough that the deregulation of bow requirements was not lobbied for by bow hunters and the KBA!!!!!! The people who want drawlocks, crossbows, and anything else that makes bowhunting easier for them are the ones pushing that garbage thru. They have convinced the KDWP and Legislature they did it to get more phyically challenged hunters, women and kids involved in the sport. BS! They did it for the folks who didn' t want to go to all the work it takes to be successful using a bow. Before I get flamed, I am FOR Handicap access with crossbows in archery season. Having arthritus in your knee should not be a qualifying factor, nor should severe alcoholism and emphezema(sp)caused by living at the " Dew Drop Inn" for 40 yrs. If you can draw a crossbow/drawloc on your own without help, you not physically unable to bowhunt. There are folks who refuse to use a bow because you can' t draw them back in the cab of your truck.

Everyone is going to have to accept the fact that changes are coming, but until the trophy buck stigma is gone from Kansas, they are going to favor commercialism.

I realize that most rifle hunters feel the archery hunters are getting all the cake, but that is not so. The archery season has seen no change since I have hunted in it. In the same time frame, more rifle tags have been added, BP hunters got their own season. We all got more tags with the game tag sales, no benefit in my book.

I would support more days in your December season, even do away with the last two weeks they allow bowhunters in after rifle season.I am not for adding to your season in October and November because of the rut activity, they are too vulnerable at that time for longer range weapons and too many would be harvested. Some will say why not restrict it during bowseason? Because deer follow no set pattern during the rut, you have to be extremely lucky to be in the right place at the time during peak rut, which happens less than you think. With a firearm, I would have had the chance at a B&C each year I have hunted instead of the one P&Y and several dinks I got with my bow. I have seen trophy deer every year I have hunted yes, but with a gun the options expound. I am against it for herd management reasons, not bow vs gun reasons.

Randy

Randy;

Great post. On the thought of the short range season, the concept says to leave the bow season the way it is now but allow other weapon types(at least for a short time). Because bowes actually fit great in that season, there should be every reason to include bow in the short range season.

I also have no problem with more time afield in December, if that' s what makes sense.

Let me ask you some questions if I may. One huge concern in the field for both hunter and deer is the opening Wednesday and the first Saturday(really opening Wed thru Sat) of the rifle season and the extremely large amounts of hunter traffic, many problems are caused by this high traffic. Is there any ideas being kicked around or is anyone looking at a way to spread the ' traffic' ? What would you recommend to alleviate this hunter traffic situation? What would be a good short term fix and what would be a good long term fix?

Good hunting

Dave

High traffic has not come up in the meetings I have been to. I am afraid Kansas will follow suit with other States in as much as raising tag fees due to high demand for them. IMO, the multiple tags should not be issued, too many folks with multiple tags cause more congestion and problems, we should go back to one tag-one hunter. Laws need to be followed by hunters and enforced by ALL LEO' s not just by KDWP CO' s. One law frequently broken by folks is filling tags for folks who got a tag and never intended to hunt a single minute. You guys know who I am talking about, the ones who get a tag for Granny who hasnt walked, talked or fed herself for 10 yrs., not to mention all the other aunts, uncles, brothers sisters etc. This tradition and another one I have never liked should be stopped, gang/drive hunts. I never have thought of them as ethical hunts, and feel they are very dangerous. For you folks seething in your chair reading this, it is only my opinion, take it as that not a personal slam on you. Why do I dislike them? Personal experience with groups around here that do not honor property lines, fences, laws or other hunters. The groups here are known to shoot deer and leave them lay if they are not big enough to suit their tastes, only check for deer they see go down, if they run off they are not hit etc. The real kicker for me, a co-worker of mine shot and killed his cousin during a drive hunt last year, the very people who chastized me for telling them it was a dangerous, unethical way to hunt. Yes its a time honored tradition, its legal, but it still sucks and is a major reason for alot of the excessive rush/traffic during the first few days of season. It is also a major contributor for landowners to stop allowing hunters onto their properties.

Back to some of your other posts Dave. You said I called a double standard common sense management. No, I said there is no double standard, KDWP is applying the logic that rifle hunters are far more efficient at their sport in shorter periods of time, thus they will not expand the season' s length which would mean more deer harvested. If archery hunters were more successful, I am sure that season would have changes made. One thing about rifle season being 52% successful last year, that is the total number of tags including game and doe tags, which puts last years harvest way over what were taken in years past. Remember that not all gunners got a tag a few years ago, now everyone gets one, alot got multiples. This is what I meant by common sense, think herd management not fairness and its alot easier to understand.

And lastly, I changed my mind about the short range season. I would not support BP rifles and crossbows as being short range weapons. Pistols and bows are most accurate at short ranges, the others can fire accurately at longer ranges.

Randy

Well it has been a week since the last post, so I guess the discussion is over. I figured that my last post would bring some other people into the discussion, to defend their side of the issue.

We can discuss, whine, bad mouth other people, complain all we want, but if we don' t take action at the KDWP Commission meetings, and fight poor legislation at the State Capital, we can kiss what we know as deer hunting here in Kansas goodbye. In the 8 or so years since they have opened the Kansas borders to NR hunters, outfitters and investors, commercialism of the Kansas deer has undone what we have paid/worked for in the last 40 years. It has also brought the lease virus into the State, something that will in the end also bring the demise to hunting for the working man. The rich and affluent will still have the resources to afford it, the average Joe hunter will be priced out. How many high school aged kids, people just getting into hunting, do you know that will be able to afford to pay lease fees? When hunter recruitment and retention numbers begin to decline, the end will be near.

Please people, think about the resource, how it has been exploited the last few years, how game management is being dictated by politics not biological needs, and get involved in getting this stopped.

Dave and Dana, thanks for the discussions we have had. These kind of forums are good to at least to show other view points. I would hope that there are more than 3-7 people who want to get involved. See you on here, and at meetings in the future.

Randy