FFTJ

You may think so, but MANY Centerfire hunters will disagree with that assessment. It is easy to say that when you have 2.5 months to hunt and not 12 days that an extended season has no effect. With a 50.1% success rate for Centerfire hunters, very few are taking 4-6 deer, some, but not many. We also have at least one order of magnitude increase in herd population since the 1991 season. I agree that hunting is a management tool and should be used wisely. Management is the heart of my discussion. KDWP is not doing any.

Ask KDWP for and review the Public Meeting minutes and attachments for the last 7 years, the deer management reports, historical data, statements and reports from the past and present from KDWP and compare them. You will then find the facts and figures do not jibe. Many of the assumptions and conclusions made previously (stating good management) disagree with the future assessments of the same set of data and event.

The KDWP, the Big Game Program, and Game Commission has increased and decreased tags without actual data for the last 10 years, last year and this year there was none presented at all. They usually use wildly unsubstantiated and non peer reviewed extrapolations in order to " manage" our great deer herd. Our herd population is determined on car/deer accidents...the only state to use this ratty data to make that determination. The other paramater for population determination is a survey of successful permits and extrapolating this result onto the total number of successful permits, then indexed to car/deer strikes. Very error prone and error propagating. (We are paying for THIS??)

Additionally, if management is used to reduce a population, why did the Big Game Program, and Game Commission try to exclude centerfire from Unit 19?? Why would there be an out cry against that management tool?? Makes no difference whether it is a bow, ML, shotgun, or centerfire, all should be given equal access. The area needs to have herd reduction. True it has " Surburban" area, but the whole of the Unit 19 is not, and " Safety" is not an issue in those areas, because it wasn' t before when it was part of other units, and centerfire was allowed then (last year). You will just have to wear orange (deer can' t see it anyway).

The State has been involved in deer management for 38+ years, and all we have to show for it is hunches. KDWP has no value or description of herd characteristics ie, gender of birth and number of births per doe per year, a solid buck doe ratio, and hunter success COUNTS or CHECKS. KDWP currently uses data gathered only on public land which indicates a 1:4 buck doe ratio and extrapolates this onto private land which is vastly different than public land interms of nutrient value. Higher nutrient value land produces more offspring per doe and more female fawns than male fawns. KDWP also maintains that they manage for " Trophy Deer" . This cannot be accomplished on large tracts of land, say a state. Trophy Management can be accomplished on smaller parcels of land. You can only manage for maximum sustainable yeild on large tracts of land. What is the MSY for Kansas??? KDWP doesn' t know either.

Question KDWP, quit defending them. They have screwed this up and it is obvious. We are in a WOS as far a deer management in this state. This is the main job of this State Agency and their responsibility and we are paying for a big flipping zero. So, as you can see that KDWP is not being judisious or even reasonable. What they have been is incompetent, ineffective, and unresponsive.

Here is something about leasing. What will it do to our herd?? I woud like to bounce a few things off you and see what you think. Peer reiview is good and I would appreciate it.

Good Hunting ALL!!!

The majority of the deer population problem is in the suburban areas where firearms and hunting in general is/was restricted. Firearms will probably always be excluded from these areas.

Several area Bowhunter Ed instructors, myself included, have been working to form an urban deer management group like the ones in existence on the East coast, Georgia and Pennsylvania. We have been successful in getting bowhunting approved in several cities where it wasn' t. Overland Park, Lenexa, Shawnee and Olathe are a few. Other areas like KCK have allowed bowhunting for some time now.

If anyone is interested in assisting with this venture, feel free to contact me for more info.

The new Unit 19 is formed from old units. These units were previously open to centerfire just last year, why would you want to close the whole unit to centerfire. Yes, in the City Limits centerfire and all guns are excluded. But crossbows are legal, how come they are not being employed to encourage other hunters and allow equal access for all hunters?? We are trying to reduce the herd in that area and manage the herd aren' t we, let all hunters help!!!

The main purpose for this new Unit 19 was to reduce the population in this area. In order to do that hunting pressure must be applied in sufficient quantity to that area and a considerable amount of the deer population must be reduced. There has been the argument that was stated earlier that the centerfire hunters will decimate the population....sounds like the real tool to reduce and manage the population in this new Unit 19, the reason it was established. If we imported all the archery hunters into the New Unit at 50% success rate, still not enough of that area of the herd will be reduced, it is a mathmatical fact. Again, this was glossed over by the KDWP and the Commission....but not the legislature....they can add and subtract and depend on data.

If the centerfire is excluded, them more hunters will have to be brought into the are to exert the hunting pressure, how about allowing crossbows in the new Unit where they are legal in the city limits??

Yes you have been successful in getting bowhunting approved in these areas and I applaud this action on your part, however it is very clear with the nationwide research that bowhunting in surburban areas is not effective in reducing the population enough to have any effect. The only research that disagrees with that statement is research paid for, supported by, and produced by the surburban archery groups and supported. It is not a viable enough manabement too for public policy issues of surburban deer management.

This is what I am afraid of in the Surburban archery areas. This was my buck taken way out in western KS. That spot in his neck is a broken off arrow and broadhead. I hope we don' t see this in unit 19

Bowhunting is not a valid management tool? You' re way overboard with that statement IMO. Success rates with archery equipment are comparable to firearms in recent years. Crossbows are legal during the firearms season and could very well be used at that time in the suburban areas.

As far as the wounding rates go, there is evidence to prove that false as well, have you ever heard of the Camp Ripley study? Anyone involved with our group will have to have a valid Hunter and Bowhunter Ed card and pass a proficiency test to hunt the urban areas.

This one had an arrow busted off in his shoulder blades, by me at 12 yds.

Thats pretty lame posting such a picture and implying thats what archery hunters are good for MarkII. I have found dead and wounded rifle shot deer far more often than I have from archery. Have helped a friend skin out capes at his taxidermy shop years ago and found .22 slugs in necks and skulls. Every form of hunting has its slobs, poor shots and poachers, but your statement was just plain wrong. Using you mentality, lets hope some kid walking to school in Unit 19 doesnt have his head blown off by a orangeman shooting a 7mm mag. two blocks away at a running deer that is being chased by the neighborhood pack of dogs.

Mark, let me start by saying that is completely tasteless to post that picture and suggest that all bowhunters do that so we shouldn' t be allowed in urban areas. I have rifle hunted with people who won' t even bother to track a deer they' ve hit unless it' s a big buck if it doesn' t fall within sight. What condition was that deer in other than the wound, was it acting normal and healthy. For all you know that deer may have been looked for for days after being hit. It can happen to anyone.
Your 4 issues are in fact only one, hunter access. The reason access is a bigger deal for rifle hunters is simple, the range of the weapon.
On to your issues with the KDWP. Do you expect them to just hide their head and have no say what-so-ever in this equation. Whose going to be in charge then?If you think the legislature has the best interests of the herd in mind when they look at numbers think again. Although they represent Kansas citizens they have no problem with selling our animals to the highest bidder. Then the profits all end up in the pockets of outfitters or even the very senators who voted for the bills. That sounds unethical at best and illegal at worst. By your posts you say KDWP has no authority to set a season so deer season should be open year round with no limit. Season length is second to only tag numbers in management practices and in fact it may be more important. Just because there are deer out there doesn' t mean we can kill indiscriminately That is what I get from your posts. I believe the wildlife and parks looks at season length as a major factor in success rates. If they wanted a 100% success rate they could extend every season. But then they would have to cut license numbers in half to maintain the population. That would probably involve a lottery again. Now answer me this would you rather hunt a little and not get a deer or not hunt at all because you weren' t drawn in the lottery. A tag is a tag is a tag whether it' s used in December or January.

OK, here goes. Charlie...here is a (*), thought you may be jealous that pain got one.
For the Record:

I have never liked the January Season.
I have never liked Game Tags.
I don' t like T-tags
I am not a fan of leasing, but if it is not my ground I have nothing legally to say.
It looks like that leasing may be the only way for me to safely continue hunting.
I do not think you can manage a population without knowing the population or the characteristics of the herd.
A State Agency has a duty to carry out it' s responsibilities charged to it by the Legislature by the Kansas Statutes. That duty is to the People of the State of Kansas.


I respect Trebarkers admonishment to me of posting the pic. His is the only admonishment I will accept. There is a story to the pic. I am 42 and that was my first buck this year as I have only been hunting for 8 years. I have harvested does on a primary permit every year. That is the Picture and reality of my trophy. (Inside spread 15" ) This year we decided to try another spot, by canoeing across water to inaccessible areas, we were overrun by multitudes of hunters, all with two way radios hunting deer like pheasants. We then went back to the old spot, and contended with tresspassers, an airplane, and a powered glider (all which were reported to KDWP officials) spotting and driving deer on private and public ground. Never heard another thing about that. Then I saw that white glint, followed it waited and shot. Great hit. I had finally gotten a buck...you remember how excited you were about coming up on your first buck? I got there and turned him over and was sick. It made no difference what caused the wound, the celebration was tainted and I lost a lot of meat. This is within 5 days on Public ground.

I am now considering leasing ground because of this set of conditions. I don' t want to do this and it is not by far a choice I like. We will try different public land next year, but if it is not better somewhere else, that' s it I M leasing. This is what is driving the leasing pressure and it is a self fulfilling prophecy spiraling to inevitability (that means a sure thing).

Tired of all of this and the rock throwing and name calling. I know we are not going to agree on everything, but there are issues that are going to have to be addressed together and you are going to see some concessions are in order. You also forgot one thing with your ardent posts....this is not bowsite, there are almost 500 hits on this thread, the majority of readers are probably pro-centerfire, so you may want to re-examine my posts which are not anti-hunting, anti bowhunting, or about taking the business of KDWP from the agency. You may also want to see how aggressive your anti gun and slob rifle hunters and orange men statements are probably not winning you brownie points here. OOOPS. Go to the KS Legislature pages and look up the Statutes of KDWP. Statutes take legal precedence over the Agency and commission regulations. Travis go take a look and then re-read my posts...you will find the argument I am making is to get back to proper management practices, agency responsibility, and legal basis issues, not to take it away from the agency. I will try to use smaller words for you in the future.

As for the picture all hunters in the urban areas should consider safety first. Any one who is hunting in this area using (fill in the blank) should burn that picture and crystalize it in their minds. In that Unit 19 there will multitudes of peta people out there with video and in all probability harassing hunters. If it was tasteless, let' s get something positive out of it by using it as something we all need to avoid. If there are any animals bleeding or wounded in public all are going to pay the pay the price. If you want centerfire hunters to stand with you while you pull down the population in the city and surburban areas, and back you up if we do have something happen like that in the picture, you had better watch what you are saying here and on bowsite about those same centerfire hunters.

I will be starting another thread on this site for some of the hunting issues we need to address...together. As I said and as your responses are taken, we are not going to agree on quite a few items, but we may make some headway on Population, management, and land acqusition. On bowsite, many of you stated you need to get working together with all hunters on topical issues To do this you are going to have to start accepting some alternative views than you currently have. As I said, re-read my posts above and reflect a little on them. There will be more later stay tuned....and please, respond, debate, and agree to disagree. No one is the self appointed keeper of the truth nor are they the sole voice for the hunters, we are many and multitudes.

Oh, and Travis...If a tag is a tag is a tag December or January, what would be the diff in Oct or Nov.???????

What is driving the leasing epidemic? Greed, supply and demand, and the market created by the commercial lobby. Because of their lobbying efforts and inflated claims, the special seasons came about. When they didn' t get the tags they wanted, they gathered more help using the insurance and farm lobby who would also benefit from more a less restricted season. Whether you want to believe it or not, by starting with doe harvest instead of the much desired NR Buck tags, it told me KDWP knew what would happen if those tags were liberalized. Pressure from the legislature resulted in the T-tags. This bill was submitted by a lame duck Senator who is now back in the private sector profitting off the tags. This session, with Senators enjoying the profits from T-tag sales, they were determined to continue making deer the latest Kansas crop and tourist attraction. We do need to come together as outdoorsmen/women to fight to retain the deer resource, we don' t have much longer before we get to experience what the hunters of the early 60-70' s had to choose from. Don' t make yourself look like the cow reaching over and thru the fence to eat grass that is the same grass on it' s side. Make the most of what you are allowed to enjoy, instead of what the other group has.

Care to back that up with some facts? Maybe a couple links? And dont give us a study from a gun hunting orginization!