Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

It has been interesting watching the posts on the 223 and 22 Hornet.. I movedto MS from South Tx 12 years ago. In South Texas I killed deer with everything from a 220 swift to a 243. But here in the Southeast everyone has magnumitusand considers a 243 a youth gun at best and anything else childs play (even though they are legal). IMO an ethical kill is one that drops the deer dead in thier tracks. That is going to be a head/neck shot, and your going to be a better shot with a rifle that does not blow your shoulder off.Now if yourswinging from aPine tree and shootingbehind the shoulder a223 or 22 hornet or evena243 may not be your cup of tea. Butfor those that can consistentlydrop a deer with a single shot to the head/neck,I just don't see how that is being unethical.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I'm gonna stick around this bait pile and see what wanders by!

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I'm more concerned about ethical shots than ethical calibers. If your going to use a small caliber than you must know its limits. I have took several deer with a 22-250 and .222 so has my son. But you have to be prepared to let deer walk if the right shot doesn't present itself. A deer shot in the heart or lungs can not live long, but you have to make sure your going to get it there. To each his own, use what you want but be responsible in doing so.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

It really doesn't matter as long as a guy can place his bullet where it needs to be...

We killed 44 deer this year, I had to track just as many hit with a .270 as a .243...

btw...Don't tell my 16 year old niece a 22-250 won't kill deer, she has dropped 7-8 in the past 4 years with the 60gr Nosler Partition...Never lost a one, always exits...Frankly, I would bet she is a better shot than many who slam the smaller cartridges...

If it's legal and you feel froggy, shoot a 50 cal. BMG as far as I'm concerned...

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I actually wouldn't consider a head or neck shot ethical, especially with small caliber rifles. So to each his own I guess.

I my opinion anything that will poke a hole in the lungs of a deer will kill it and is ethical. What it boils down to is knowing your weapon and what it's limitations are. I don't believe there is a center fire rifle made that isn't capable of taking deer sized game as long as you have the proper bullet for the job and keeping range and shot placement in mind when hunting.

Ethics has absolutely nothing to do with whether a certain weapon will kill deer or not, it has to do with what you personally feel will work in your situation. Some people have no qualms about killing them with a bow and an arrow, others feel they need a 7mm mag or 300 win mag. Both will give you dead in under 10 minutes if you know what you are doing.

I have killed injured deer on the side of the road with a hunting knife before, they are not mythical creatures that require weapons with special powers to kill them. Put a hole in the lungs and/or heart and they expire in short order.

My opinion anyway.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

It depends on shot placement and distance. I don't see how the ethics nazis can proclaim a caliber is not ethical to use if it is legal. I don't see anything wrong with using a .223 or similar caliber if it's used within it's limits. I wouldn't try a shot with a .223 that I would with my .270. If you were hunting in the mountains and were facing a 400 yard shot I would prefer something more powerful than the .270. I would want something with ample power that would knock down a deer at a great distance. Remember just because you can type on a message board, that doesn't mean you can credibly declare someone who doesn't do it the way you do to be of unsound ethics.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I have had to pass up shots on some pretty nice bucks (3times) because I was carrying to biga weapon

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Ethical shots = vital shots.

In my opinion the .243 is the minimum deer cartridge. Having said that I am sure a .223 or .22-250 would ethically kill deer. I personally would not hunt deer with less than a .243.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I have been shooting long guns for the past 10 years in the military. IMO I don't think that the caliber of the ammunition is the ethical question here. It has to do with the skill of the shooter and shot placement. We usually use a .308 or .300 for all our long range stuff...out to 800+ meters .. some longer. At that range you are getting into environmentals (wind, barometrics etc) and skill of the shooter. I was amazed as to how much effect the wind can have on a .223 round...obviously lighter....the wind pushed the round at least 6 inches in a 5 mph wind at 300 meters...there are formulas for this....Now ethically would you take a 300 meter shot with a .223 round knowing the effects the environment (including shooter stability and position) can have on the bullet? I would be a little hesitant and maybe wait for the deer to move a little closer. With a .308, no problem...but I would pick the high percentage shot...shoulder or right behind it...I have more room for error to still hit vitals etc...My whole point is...the ethics is in the shooter and shot placement not the caliber of weapon. Just my .02!

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Could you explain?

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I had to pass on the shot because of deer standing with the line of fire going towards an establishment, (hunting cabin, farm house).

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I've never had one get away with my .243 yet

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Here legal is +.23cal. Personally for our larger sub species ofdeer,quarter bore(.257 cal) min.

As long is it is legal and you know your equipment/ability/gamethen knock yourself out.

I don't consider the head/neck area regardless of tool/cal used a good place to shoot. I have had more then a few debates on here over the years why I feel this way;). So,I'll just say my personal ethics dictate this as a no shoot situation.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

So you would have took that shot with a smaller caliber??

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

The "ethical/unethical" debate is getting old and is just an excuse to stir up crap and belittle fellow hunters on message boards.

It is a fact that not all hunters can make head and neck shots, so a small caliber (ie 22-250, 223) would not be a good idea for deer hunting. On the other hand, I have known some guys that only made clean kills on about every third or fourth deer they shot at with a 300 WM because they were scared of the gun.

What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander. If a hunter shoots a rifle in a caliber he is comfortable with he will more than likely practice more and be more competent with it.

I DO NOT advocate head/neck shots, but if a hunter knows his gun and can shoot it accurately, there is no reason why a head/neck shot would not be "ethical". I like a nice bang/flop.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Hi Zrex,
I know you are a fan of the 243 as am I but this confuses me. If there is a house, cabin etc beyond and in the line of your shot it shouldn't matter if you are shooting a 300 winmag, a 243 or 22 hornet.
you may be thinkingpenetration (i do not know that you are) but what if you miss?
This just doesn't seem safe to me

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Well if i had my hornet on two of these instances I would have taken the shot. There was a lot of woods between me and the cabin. I use 45 gr Hollow Points and I know for sure the first twig it hits it will come apart, thats if I missed. The other instance, Hmmmmmm I just dont know if I would have taken it, probably not.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Can't go wrong with a 308 or 30-06.

What if you are offered a shot at a 250lbbuck at about 100 yards. He's quartering towards you so you need to get through the shoulder to hit the vitals. Will a 50gr bullet from a 223 have enough power at 100 yards to penetrate the heavy muscle and plow through the shoulder bone of a 250lb buck? will it getthrough that, wreck thevitals and exit in the back far quadrant of said buck? Sure, 50 yard shots at broadside standing deer is easy. A tough angle at the buck of your dreams? Why chance it with barely enough gun? Why not be prepared for anything?

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Because some people don't mind it being challenging that is why some take to the woods with a recurve and wooden arrows.

As long as you know your gun isn't capable of that shot it really doesn't matter. You could use a .270, 308 or 30-06 and still screw that shot up if you didn't have the proper bullet to get enough penetration.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

My buddy use to shot a .243 and killed a lot of deer with it and never lost one that I know of.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Exactly just because you have a deer out there doesnt mean you automatically have let some lead fly.
Its called self controll. Lots of people have their own land or lease so letting a deer walk because it didnt present a good shot angle is no big deal and is the right thing to do. Now if I were to go on a payed hunt or something like that, then I would pack the heat. My .243 LOL.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I would take that 223 and place the cross hairs in the middle of the white patch on that deer's neck, squeeze the trigger and watch the buck of my dreams go belly up with a broken neck. There would be no hessitation because I know I'm a skilled enough marksman to make that shot 100% of the time.

A lot of people on this site claim this is unethical and that is unethical, but the fact is that the only deer I have EVER lost in my life was one I shot with a 270win with a 130gr ballistic tip because I made a poor shot. The gun had nothing to do with it. The only thing unethical, as I see it, is making a poor shot on an animal regardless of the caliber. I have seen more deer wounded and not recovered with a 30-06 than any other caliber in all my years of hunting and it was from 1 man because he was a horrible shot. In my opinion the only question of ethics was the fact that this bone head was hunting in the first place..didn't matter what caliber gun he was shooting.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I know someone like that, he has wounded more deer than I care to count, with everything, .308, 22-250, crossbow. I heard from another friend he wounded 3 deer in one sitting and didnt recover one. Guys a slob and a poacher. I'm tempted to report him.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Ethical calibers for deer are the ones that your state says are legal. Ethical shots, and or hunters should be the debate.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

At 50 yards broadside just about anything will kill a deer if you hit it right. But for most hunting scenerios, larger caliberswill have their advantages. I personally wont use anything less than a .270 for deer, using a small caliber is like handicapping yourself in a sense. There is more room for error with larger calibers, I'm not saying to take marginal shots but if you happen to hit where you didnt intend chances are better you'll find your deer dead if you wereshootingabigger bullet with more energy.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

The location and type of hunting you do should dictate what you hunt with.

We do a lot of deer drives here in WV. We put different hunter's in different scenario's based upon their ability. If someone showed up with a 22 Hornet to drive deer with us-we probably would send them home. But if I was sitting over a corn pile and the distance was less than 100 yards, then yes the 22 Hornet is more than adequate to kill an unalarmed deer with his face on the ground like a vacuum cleaner sucking up corn.

IMO a hunter should use the largest most powerful cartridge that he feels 100% competent with.

I own and have owned a half dozen different 22 Hornet's. And yes they are a great and quite little cartridge, but I do not consider it an every day in and out deer cartridge. But yes it will do the job.

I agree with Skeeter about the head and neck shots. I rarely take that shot. Is that shot effective?? Yes it is very effective. I have just been hunting for 38 years and I know that things can go wrong-especially when you do not want them to. I would rather have the larger aiming area, rather than the limited aiming area.

I have read ZRex's post about his use of the 22 Hornet. And I am sure in his style of hunting what he is doing is just fine. I just do not think that type of hunting would work well here in WV. Just my opinion. Tom.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Since I went on the record saying I hunt deer with a .223, I'll also go on the record saying I would only take a broadside shot. I would take that shot out to 150 with my setup, but no further. That has more to do with accuracy than energy.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Did everyone notice my .22 hornet thread got deleted. moderators felt becuase it was illegal to use in some states it shouldnt be on the board.
sigh....... Who's the moderator, Jim Zumbo ?

picture of dead doe
 

what do you think this deer was shot with, the shot was about 280 yards give or take some. this is all bullet damage nothing else, the exit hole is at the top right at the edge of the wound coverd by skin. the main hole is about the size of a quarter, the bullet a winchester power point hit the 100# doe in the leg bone on the other side. it didn't run off.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Are you sure that was the only reason? High powered rifles period are not legal in a lot of states does that mean we can't post about rifle hunting anymore? By the way that is a legal cartridge in upper MI, where as in lower Michigan no centerfire rifles are allowed at all for deer hunting.

I can't believe that would be their only basis for deleting a post.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

It is my belief that people should hunt deer with the largest cartridge they can shoot with accuracy and comfort, for some people, that's a 30-06, for some, like me, .308, others, 25-06, and still others, especially youth hunters, .243.

That's fine, go to your limit, and go no further, don't shoota big gun just for the sake of shooting a big gun, but at the same time, don't shoot the smallest possible centerfire rifle you can aim at a deer just for the sake of shooting a small gun.

Just my 2 cents.

Josiah

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

This is the email I got. copied and pasted.








The message you posted in Guns (http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tt.aspx?forumid=9),
titled: " .22 Hornet scores again (update)" has been deleted.
Reason:The reason if obvious....

In the majority of the USA using a .22 to hunt deer is illegal. I know that it is here in
WV and checked the data base for other states. Yep, across the board it is for the most
part illegal.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Interesting...Here in NC there is no mention of what is the smallest cartridge allowed for deer....Guess we like less government intervention...

You could even legally hunt deer here with a .22 rimfire....

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Sort of makes you feel like a poacher even though it was legal doesn't it. If we can't post about things that are not legal in every state that sure doesn't leave a lot to post about does it.;) Since hunting regulations and weapons restrictions vary greatly from state state I am going to need a list of things I can and can't discuss. Can we talk about baiting? It is illegal in several states. What about shooting turkeys with a rifle, that is huge no no where I live. What about inline muzzle loaders, some states don't allow those either. Or crossbows for that matter. Heck we have a crossbow forum here and they are not legal in every state.

Younggun, I have no trouble handling the recoil from magnum rifles like a 7mm mag or 300 win mag, nor do I have trouble with 12 ga 3 1/2 inch magnum loads. Does that mean I should limit myself to a 300 win mag for all my centerfire hunting from varmints to big game and a 12 ga 3 1/2 inch load for all my small game hunting? I mean if I had only had a magnum load maybe that bunny would be just a bit more dead than it was with my 20 ga field load. Or maybe I should sell my non magnum inline 50 cal muzzle loader and get a 54 caliber magnum version. Obviously from your statement I am under gunned with my 50 caliber using 90 grns of powder. I mean it only develops 1700 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards. I don't see how I have managed to kill deer up to this point:eek:. I mean that is only half the energy of a 30-06 or 7mm mag.

You must really get frustrated with people that use bows, traditional muskets, handguns and .410's to hunt with. All of which have killed tons of deer over the years.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

this is simple .22 long riflelighter recoil high ammo capacity cheap ammo prices practice alot get off alot a rounds at the animal ok.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

PLM, obviously, this thread is about ethical cartridges for deer, so don't be bringing other game, and non-cartridge weapons into an argument, just to prove your point.

If you want to talk small game go here:

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tt.aspx?forumid=11

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Well, that's just plain silly. It was legal where it was used in that thread. Should we delete my thread about killing a buck with a .243, since rifle hunting is illegal in Illinois and other Eastern and Midwest states? Ridiculous. And, I don't think that "across the board" is even close to being correct. If the cartridge was legal where it was used then there is no good reason to delete the thread. If the deletion was the result of the name-calling by the folks who opposed the use, calling the user unethical and a poacher, then, fine, lock it up. But, not for using a legal cartridge and making a legal one-shot kill.

Back on topic... The "ethical calibers for deer" question is sort of misleading. State wildlife departments set the rules for legal calibers. The ethics question, when using a legal caliber, will vary depending on the cartridge chosen and will relate to the hunter's shot selection and range, NOT to the caliber of the round chosen.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I havn't read through this whole thread and its probably been mentioned but a head shot is by no means ethical.

You ever see a deer running around with its jaw blown completely off. Not a pretty sight. Most likely a failed attempt at a head shot.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I guess that the moderator isn't a big fan of the .22 Hornet, even where it is legal to use.[:-]

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Scary. Please stay out of my neck of the woods. I don't want to get killed.