RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Very interesting.... I just did a survey of the 50 states' regulations concerning the use of .22 CF's for deer hunting. Here's what I found:

6 States do not allow rifle hunting

8 States, either had no apparent restriction, or I could not find a restriction

3 states require .23 caliber or larger

4 states require .24 caliber or larger

29 states ALLOW the use of .22 caliber CF's. Of these, 4 have minimum ft. lbs. of energy restrictions which would allow some .22 CF's and prohibit other .22 CF's.


NOTE: The moderator who shut down the .22 Hornet thread appears to indicate in the email to zrex that he knows .22 CF's are illegal in WV. The WV regulation actually reads "NO RIMFIRES UNDER .25 CALIBER". That does not, to me at least, mean .22 CF's are banned.

Edited/update...

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I was just trying to show you how silly your reasoning was. If you like I could take the few sentences out about the small game and replace it with deer or big game related topics instead. But it would still mean the same thing.

Besides I really wasn't discussing small game hunting, just using it as an example. I'm sure everyone else got the point.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I am currently working on a post that lists the restrictions for every state and some places in Canada. I'm about half way done. I may post it later this evening. I have to go to union meeting right now though.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

We cannot define ethics for each other.

I'd like to add that I'm pretty sure that my sks (7.62X39) with approx 1500 ft lbs of energy, kills deer faster (more ethically) than my 30-06 with approx 3000 ft lbs of energy. Sometimes there is no exit wounds on deer shot with the sks, which means the deer got the luxury of feeling all1500 lbs. My 30-06 on the other hand, when not meeting much resistance may pass through with minimal expansion. Possibly dumping 2700 ft lbs into the hillside? Shoot what you shoot straight. If you can kill a deer with an arrow, you can kill them with just about any rifle and that would include some air rifles!

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Just for quick info Colorado is .24 caliber centerfire and up, with a 70 grn bullet for deer and 85 grn bullet for large game and a minimum of 1000 ft/lbs at 100 yards.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

To what avail?

Why how very thoughtful of you.
[/quote]

So, taking a few sentances out, will make the post say the same thing? I'll take small game out of every thing I say as a New Year's resolution!

See, it really works! Your logic has been dumbfounding thus far......

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

bingo i know people who say hunting with a .223 is wrong in many ways

but they still hunt with a 30.06 when they can not hit the broadside of a barn
it all comes down to shot placement

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Yes I could reword it and it would still have the same meaning. The point being that shooting the biggest gun you can handle for any type of hunting simply doesn't make sense. You simply don't need a gun that big to get the job done, it is over kill. Shooting a white tail deer with a 300 win mag is akin to shooting a rabbit with a turkey load. If you can't understand that I really don't know what to tell you.

To what avail? Well the point was sort of to let you know you are young and when you get more experience you will probably see things differently. Your views are about what I expect from someone with your level of weapons knowledge and skill. Maybe in another 20 or 30 years you will get my point. I should have known it was futile to reason with someone of your age.

Oh, and if you are going to quote everything I write (even though its a few posts up) at least don't quote me out of context and quote the whole sentence, don't leave words out.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

My last post was mainly a joke, especially that last sentance.


I'll actually try totalk like a man this time, and I'm truly sorry if you took offense to my last post,

In my first post, I stated that it is my belief, that for hunting WhitetailedDeer, it is best for the hunter to choose the rifle, that is the most powerful they canhandle,without sacrificing shooting ability and accuracy, in this way, having an accurately placed shot,with a more powerfulrifle cartridge, would be amore prudent choice than to have an accurately placed shot, withamuchsmaller cartridge in terms of power and performance,simply because, although it doesn't guarantee afaster kill, neccessarily, itstill takes a little bit of chance out of the equation, and in some cases,thatcan, not neccessarily will, but it can, make the difference.
As an earlier poster who had hunted with the .222 and the .22-250 for deer said, "But you have to be prepared to let deer walk if the right shot doesn't present itself."

Now, for different types of hunting, "the right shot" means different things, with bowhunters, for example, they can only ethically take a broadside shot, or a quartering away, wheras a rifle hunter may also shoot a quartering toward, or, if they are able to shoot the base of the neck from their vantage point, they can shoot a still deer facing away from them if they want to, though this isn't the best choice for a man trying to get the deer mounted.
Likewise, smaller cartridges are confined to slightly stricter areas where a shotcan be taken, withresults that one can be almostcertain of the damage inflicted on the deer, should that shot be taken.
For example, aimingfor the pointof the deers'shoulder, (i.e. in front of the shoulder toward the neck), in an attempt to hit the spinal cord where it dips down, wouldn't be advisable witha cartridgesuch as the.222 or the .22-250, not because the bullet wouldn't do damage, but because since those bullets are very light andfast, on impact with the bone, they could deflect withinthe body cavity, into a place other than the desired location, which may result in either desireable, or notso desireable results, and it is herethat we encounter "chance".
On the other hand, using alarger bullet, with a .270 cal or .30 cal, that has more inertia, mass, and weight, would give the bullet a much greater chance, ofgoing out the oppositeend of whence it entered. "Chance", is still present, as with any hunting situation, but greatly reduced.
I have personally witnessed chance turn out for the better when my grandfather fired at a Mule Deer spike, and the light, 55-grain bullet struck a rib, and deflected within the body cavity, turning the heart and lung area into a blender, without an exit wound.Thedeertook 3 steps, and dropped.
However, the fact is that chance is unpredictable, and there is no guarantee of favorable results, andthe unpredicability,makes it less favorable.
Therefore, larger cartridges, are a much wiser choice for deer hunting, but, needless to say, only when used accurately, with precision.

Unlike small game, deer, being larger creatures, are less likely to be "mutilated" by a large weapon, quite simply, because they have more mass, and stronger, largerbones. A3 1/2 year old buck shot with a .375 H&H, would still yield at least 100 pounds of edible meat, guaranteed. (In no way was this statement advocating that people should consistently hunt Whitetailed Deer with a .375 H&H, unless they are capable of doing so, with accuracy, and if such a person did exist, hats off to them.)
However, if one were to shoot a rabbit with a 20-guage slug, significantly less meat would be harvested, since the meat surrounding the bullet wound would need to be disposed of, to avoid lead poisoning.

Therfore, the debate about hunting deer with larger cartridges, is not connected with hunting small game.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

22 Centerfire's are legal in WV. But I am not sure if the 22 Hornet is legal or not. Oh and by the way I am sure everyone here drives a compact-non extended cab 2 WD truck, instead of a full size extended cab-V8-4 WD truck. Why of course you all drive the compact. It will get the job done!!:D:D:D:D Tom.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Updating my earlier list:

7 states do not allow rifle hunting

4 states require at least .23 caliber (KA, MN, VA, WY)

4 states require at least .24 or .243 caliber (CO, CN, IA WA)

35 states allow .22 Centerfires.

Of the 35 that allow .22 Centerfires, 5 have energy restrictions. 2 of these say 1200 ft lbs of Muzzle Energy, 1 says 1000 ft lbs of Muzzle Energy, 1 says 900 ft lbs at 100 yards, and 1 says 1000 ft lbs at 100 yards.

So, the .22 Hornet thread got deleted because, as explained by a moderator:
I really fail to see the "across the board" ban against .22 centerfires for deer hunting that got the .22 Hornet post deleted, and I wonder what the moderator's motives were. Did he bother to check ANY of "the data base for other states" before deleting the post? 35 of 43 states that permit rifle hunting allow .22's. That certainly refutes to ridiculous proposition that "in the majority of the USA using a .22 to hunt deer is illegal." He was even wrong about the restriction in his home state of WV...

When 35 of the 43 states that allow rifle hunting permit the use of .22 centerfires, I think that removes most question about whether the .22 CF's are "unethical". The ethics question, as I've said before, should relate solely to the individual hunter's shot selection based upon the legal caliber he has chosen.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I knew a man that grew up hunting deer with a .22 in the 50s. He shot them in the chest, broadside, at close range with a hollow point. He stated they always went down after 100 yards or so. Ethical? Not to me, but to him? yes.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

i drive a f150 4x4 with a small lift kit but it is a straight 6. i must say it has as much power and noise as a v8
but it is also a reg cab

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I've got a Chevy S-10, regular cab, long bed, 2WD, 4.3L V-6. It's a little work-horse though. It's a half ton truck, but I hauled well over a ton of tile and grout in it when I was tiling my den. The only thing I don't like about it is it doesn't have the extended cab, so I couldn't put my guns inside if it started to rain on the way to the deer lease. My stepson recently remedied that when his employer gave him a camper top for it...

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

In WV we are ok to use 22 cal centerfire ammo. I am not familiar with the 22 hornet but I'm not sure why that wouldn't qualify
In fact, I believe a centerfire 17 Cal would be legal in WV

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

ya mine is a half tons to
i have hauled 60 sheets of plywoods and even 50 bundles of shingles at like 80 pounds each

it was slow moving and it made some noise but it got to my door for a straight 6 i am happy

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

i use a 30/30 marlin i always have and always will... its what i know and love... so find a
gun you love and are comfortable and leave eachother alone!!!!!

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

This is an extremely ignorant generalization and has nothing to do with the topic

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

i am content with my .50 cal. it does what ever i need it to. when i go to big open fields ilike my .243 ppl can say what they want but i have killed deer with lots of bigger rifles and my favorite rifle is a .243

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

i agree with part of what Paul said
i am only 22
but i have learned more in the last 4 years then the first 18
like it is not a good idea to punch a guy in the middle of a carnival at the court house yard
and i have learned that most of what i thought when i was young was wrong

we all grow up and learn that were not know it alls

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

also i hunted my first years with a 12ga and a 3030

my second i had a .223 it was all i had so i used it

i did not like the idea of using a small bullet like that but i figured if it is good for the us military to shoot people with it would kill a deer

but if i have a .223 and say a 308 or 7.62 i would not even think about the .223 but it will get the job down.

It is like if you are painting your house and you have a commercial sprayer and a hand brush which are you going to use

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

and if you only had to paint a bird house which one are you going to use ?

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I like bird houses

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

well personally i would use the sprayer you would get a more even coat lol
Now there are sprayers that are to big for painting a house that some people like they most use.
It just all come down to what a persons ethics are

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

ethics aint got nothing to do with it, it's called skill.
Some hunters are skilled enough to take game with a bow, some withadequate calibers , and then you have the ones that need the biggest gun available to take game.....:D

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I like to hide in a tree with asharpened paint brush handleand drop down on the deer and kill them that way.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

i understand skill takes a part into it
i can understand someone hunting with a .223 i have
if you need a 50 cal to kill a deer you need to hit the range some more
let me ask it this way if someone breaks into your house

do you grap the 22 cal pistol or the 45 pistol

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Neither...I grab the 12 gauge...

Main difference, I ain't never seen a 4 legged creature that I HAD to kill...
Deer are simply easy to kill...If you don't have a good shot, it doesn't matter what you have in your hands...

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

that is what i was meaning
if you can not hit the broadside of a barn a 50 cal would be no good better just go with a mini gun with armer piercing bullets never know the deer might have armor on :D

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Funny!

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

.243 minimum. Great gun for longer flat shot and has the killing power.
30.06 maximum.