RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Very interesting.... I just did a survey of the 50 states' regulations concerning the use of .22 CF's for deer hunting. Here's what I found:

6 States do not allow rifle hunting

8 States, either had no apparent restriction, or I could not find a restriction

3 states require .23 caliber or larger

4 states require .24 caliber or larger

29 states ALLOW the use of .22 caliber CF's. Of these, 4 have minimum ft. lbs. of energy restrictions which would allow some .22 CF's and prohibit other .22 CF's.


NOTE: The moderator who shut down the .22 Hornet thread appears to indicate in the email to zrex that he knows .22 CF's are illegal in WV. The WV regulation actually reads "NO RIMFIRES UNDER .25 CALIBER". That does not, to me at least, mean .22 CF's are banned.

Edited/update...

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I was just trying to show you how silly your reasoning was. If you like I could take the few sentences out about the small game and replace it with deer or big game related topics instead. But it would still mean the same thing.

Besides I really wasn't discussing small game hunting, just using it as an example. I'm sure everyone else got the point.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

I am currently working on a post that lists the restrictions for every state and some places in Canada. I'm about half way done. I may post it later this evening. I have to go to union meeting right now though.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

We cannot define ethics for each other.

I'd like to add that I'm pretty sure that my sks (7.62X39) with approx 1500 ft lbs of energy, kills deer faster (more ethically) than my 30-06 with approx 3000 ft lbs of energy. Sometimes there is no exit wounds on deer shot with the sks, which means the deer got the luxury of feeling all1500 lbs. My 30-06 on the other hand, when not meeting much resistance may pass through with minimal expansion. Possibly dumping 2700 ft lbs into the hillside? Shoot what you shoot straight. If you can kill a deer with an arrow, you can kill them with just about any rifle and that would include some air rifles!

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Just for quick info Colorado is .24 caliber centerfire and up, with a 70 grn bullet for deer and 85 grn bullet for large game and a minimum of 1000 ft/lbs at 100 yards.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

To what avail?

Why how very thoughtful of you.
[/quote]

So, taking a few sentances out, will make the post say the same thing? I'll take small game out of every thing I say as a New Year's resolution!

See, it really works! Your logic has been dumbfounding thus far......

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

bingo i know people who say hunting with a .223 is wrong in many ways

but they still hunt with a 30.06 when they can not hit the broadside of a barn
it all comes down to shot placement

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

Yes I could reword it and it would still have the same meaning. The point being that shooting the biggest gun you can handle for any type of hunting simply doesn't make sense. You simply don't need a gun that big to get the job done, it is over kill. Shooting a white tail deer with a 300 win mag is akin to shooting a rabbit with a turkey load. If you can't understand that I really don't know what to tell you.

To what avail? Well the point was sort of to let you know you are young and when you get more experience you will probably see things differently. Your views are about what I expect from someone with your level of weapons knowledge and skill. Maybe in another 20 or 30 years you will get my point. I should have known it was futile to reason with someone of your age.

Oh, and if you are going to quote everything I write (even though its a few posts up) at least don't quote me out of context and quote the whole sentence, don't leave words out.

Paul

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

My last post was mainly a joke, especially that last sentance.


I'll actually try totalk like a man this time, and I'm truly sorry if you took offense to my last post,

In my first post, I stated that it is my belief, that for hunting WhitetailedDeer, it is best for the hunter to choose the rifle, that is the most powerful they canhandle,without sacrificing shooting ability and accuracy, in this way, having an accurately placed shot,with a more powerfulrifle cartridge, would be amore prudent choice than to have an accurately placed shot, withamuchsmaller cartridge in terms of power and performance,simply because, although it doesn't guarantee afaster kill, neccessarily, itstill takes a little bit of chance out of the equation, and in some cases,thatcan, not neccessarily will, but it can, make the difference.
As an earlier poster who had hunted with the .222 and the .22-250 for deer said, "But you have to be prepared to let deer walk if the right shot doesn't present itself."

Now, for different types of hunting, "the right shot" means different things, with bowhunters, for example, they can only ethically take a broadside shot, or a quartering away, wheras a rifle hunter may also shoot a quartering toward, or, if they are able to shoot the base of the neck from their vantage point, they can shoot a still deer facing away from them if they want to, though this isn't the best choice for a man trying to get the deer mounted.
Likewise, smaller cartridges are confined to slightly stricter areas where a shotcan be taken, withresults that one can be almostcertain of the damage inflicted on the deer, should that shot be taken.
For example, aimingfor the pointof the deers'shoulder, (i.e. in front of the shoulder toward the neck), in an attempt to hit the spinal cord where it dips down, wouldn't be advisable witha cartridgesuch as the.222 or the .22-250, not because the bullet wouldn't do damage, but because since those bullets are very light andfast, on impact with the bone, they could deflect withinthe body cavity, into a place other than the desired location, which may result in either desireable, or notso desireable results, and it is herethat we encounter "chance".
On the other hand, using alarger bullet, with a .270 cal or .30 cal, that has more inertia, mass, and weight, would give the bullet a much greater chance, ofgoing out the oppositeend of whence it entered. "Chance", is still present, as with any hunting situation, but greatly reduced.
I have personally witnessed chance turn out for the better when my grandfather fired at a Mule Deer spike, and the light, 55-grain bullet struck a rib, and deflected within the body cavity, turning the heart and lung area into a blender, without an exit wound.Thedeertook 3 steps, and dropped.
However, the fact is that chance is unpredictable, and there is no guarantee of favorable results, andthe unpredicability,makes it less favorable.
Therefore, larger cartridges, are a much wiser choice for deer hunting, but, needless to say, only when used accurately, with precision.

Unlike small game, deer, being larger creatures, are less likely to be "mutilated" by a large weapon, quite simply, because they have more mass, and stronger, largerbones. A3 1/2 year old buck shot with a .375 H&H, would still yield at least 100 pounds of edible meat, guaranteed. (In no way was this statement advocating that people should consistently hunt Whitetailed Deer with a .375 H&H, unless they are capable of doing so, with accuracy, and if such a person did exist, hats off to them.)
However, if one were to shoot a rabbit with a 20-guage slug, significantly less meat would be harvested, since the meat surrounding the bullet wound would need to be disposed of, to avoid lead poisoning.

Therfore, the debate about hunting deer with larger cartridges, is not connected with hunting small game.

RE: Ethical Calibers for Deer
 

22 Centerfire's are legal in WV. But I am not sure if the 22 Hornet is legal or not. Oh and by the way I am sure everyone here drives a compact-non extended cab 2 WD truck, instead of a full size extended cab-V8-4 WD truck. Why of course you all drive the compact. It will get the job done!!:D:D:D:D Tom.