I have to add one more thing I have seen the big bucks jump and clear a 12 foot high fence, so if you think that the fence will keep all the deer in you are wrong.

Coming from an area of the country where we do not have high fences (Minnesota), I will offer my perspective. Soonershooter brings about some points that are certainly true, but in my opinion, they also make the case for this not being a fair chase hunt. If you keep inferior deer out, you are affecting the deer herd artificially and therefore, deer shot on this ranch should not be compared to deer shot in the wild. If the deer herd is managed artificially, that is the fence aids in any way, then IMO, that constitutes unfair advantage over those of us that have to hunt the wild deer herd. Now that only means that those deer should not be entered into the record book. Can a person have an enjoyable hunt? Sure. Could it be hard and challenging? Sure. But in my opinion, deer harvested off of any enclosed should not be compared with true wild deer. Many say that the fence may not play a role. I contend that it undoubtedly has. Unless the deer in question has never seen the fence in its lifetime, and a big buck will put on some miles over the course of breeding seasons. I believe that it is roughly 15 sq miles. If it is a square chunk of land, that means it is approximatel 4 miles by 4 miles. If the buck was born smack in the middle, that means he is at most 2 miles from the fence. If any of you think that a mature buck has not traveled 2 miles, you are kidding yourselves. If it is not a square chunk, the fence is even closer. It is pure hogwash to say that the deer haven't encountered the fence. So, I would say to bgidd2280, go and have a great hunt, it will not affect you one way or the other unless you shoot a B&C type buck and it is important to you to have your name in the book (and 140 will not make the book, so no problem).

We hunt deer in MN a little different than those in Texas. So this is just the opinion of a guy up north. Those down south may think it is ok. Thats fine. We don't think baiting is fair chase either, but that is another topic.

Since you're asking my opinion on the issue, I'd say go for it. It should be fun. But would I call it hunting, absolutely not! The fence could be easily used to your hunting advantage instead of the fact that it keeps the good ones in and the poachers and unwanted deer out. Even when it's 10,000 acres, which is a lot. A good word for this type of stuff is you're harvesting, not hunting, IMO a big difference. Neither is wrong, it just depends on whats for you. Good luck!
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Ok Dep: You have just inherited a 10,000 acre ranch and a $1 million bank account from your rich uncle. You go down and check out your new ranch. You find that on 2 sides of your ranch the land has been bought and subdivided into 10 acre "ranchettes" and most of them have a deer blind and a couple of feeders on them. The ranch foreman says that very seldom does anyone see or kill anything bigger than a forkhorn on your ranch. You know for a fact that some of the little "ranchers" take 10 deer/year off their 10 acres. Your ranch supplies feed, cover, etc all year for the deer and some guy with 10 acres calls them across the fence and shoots them. Decisions, decisions: if you continue as is, the herd is unbalanced with very few mature bucks to breed the does, and no good antlers. OR you could consider putting up a deer proof fence and manage your deer numbers for a healthy herd with good numbers of mature bucks. If the deer had a choice, which do you think they would vote for?

You can say that "trophy" hunters are bad, but one of the reasons I hold out for a trophy is that I know I have really triumphed as a hunter when I kill a "big-un". Those guys don't get really big by being stupid and it takes a really good "hunter" to bag one, even on a ranch with a high fence. I may only shoot a buck every 3-4 years. I do kill 2-3 does/year for meat. If horns aren't important, why don't you just shoot a doe. That may not be an option where you are, but here in the Texas hill country we try to shoot twice as many does as bucks due to the large number of deer.

What? It was my uncle that left the ranch to me? I am calling the fencing crew as we speak!

Edited by - txhunter58 on 11/08/2002 13:20:29

i am in texas if you had read. i did shoot a doe this weekend on a fair chase ranch. we saw bucks but just passed due to not having a good shot. a high fence would not have made the shot any harder-or easier.
my season has never depended upon how big a rack was. i just try to get meat and some times i fail. i fail in a fair chase hunt and not inside a fence. i fail to see your point on the 10,000 acre ranch. who cares what the other people get as long as they are doing it own their property. i would never put up a high fence to keep people out except maybe in a prison.high fences keep other deer out and the other deer in.the reason i hear is that so they can grow bigger. why is this? so they can kill that fenced in deer when it gets big.fencing anything in where it will spend its life inside that fence is not fair chase. the sole purpose of that fence is to grow that deer bigger so it can be killed once it gets to the size you want. where is that hunting?

So how many deer would it be ok for a guy with 10 acres to harvest "as long as they are on his property"? 10 deer? 20, 50, 100? I am not talking about him personally, but his friends, relatives, paying guests? One of my points was that the herd within the fence would be a healthier, more natural (buck/doe ratio) herd. In my example everyone was shooting yearlings and 2 year old bucks. Where is the sport/hunting in that? I would bet you a mature buck housed in a 10,000 acre high fenced area would be harder to kill than a yearling buck coming in to a feeder. I have seen first hand what these little "ranchette" subdivisions do to the deer herd and I don't think it is good for the deer.

The only solution other than high fencing to the problem of people harvesting more than their fair share would be to limit the number of deer than can be harvested determined by the size of the parcel. If in the same scenerio, the state limited everyone to 1 buck on properties less than 50 acres and then 1 buck per so many acres (would vary depending on the local deer population) then I would not put up a high fence.

What is wrong with the idea that you can shoot all the deer that your property can support on a day to day basis?

you should know that being in texas game wardens would be all over you iff that many deer were coming off that property.you being in texas know that we are governed by the amount of bucks and does we can kill in each county. why should it make any differenceabout the size of the property. doe permits are given out due to the size and cover on the property.it used to be one doe permit per every 200 acres. some counties do not require permits. if the properties involved can stand to have that number harvested it should make no difference. a fence has nothing to do witn that. question-(why) is it when we put a fence around a deer so he can not get out we just call it high fencing. when we put a high fence around a human we call it a prison.high fences are there for the lazy hunter who is willing tp pay big bucks. when have you seen a high fence ranch that was cheap to hunt? never!

Txhunter58 let's not get carried away. No real sportsman wants to slaughter a "deer a day". And Dep214 don't attack people hunting there as "lazy" or that the cost is high. Don't forget the cost is more because of other things like accomodations, meals, guides, vehicles, butchering/freezing and even free extras like fishing and sporting clays. You don't have to invest in camping equipment or travel trailers, atv's or stands. So your money is spent one way and others spend perhaps the same amount to hunt differently. Remember too that not everyone has time to find land, scout, put up feed and stands or get there more than once a year. Life is busy not "lazy" for some people and getting a chance to go hunting for only a few days is all some people have because of work constraints so they choose the all inclusive option. Also some people only go once every 3 or 4 years saving their money to hunt once in awhile on a ranch with great bucks and not on an annual basis. It's not only rich folks who want to hunt like this.

You can't manage a deer herd effectively without tools. The biggest tool is age dynamics. I can't imagine a 140 class or above deer getting that big without being at least 3 1/2 years old. Most would have to be 4 1/2 or more actually. There's slim chances that with poachers on the prowl you could produce at least 10% of your herd with deer this old. The high fence is a tool to help keep poachers and neighbors who'll shoot anything that walks by at bay so these deer can grow old. It's wise to give dep214 credit and admit the other beneficial effect is to cull undesireable deer. He fails to recognize that this is also a tool for management. His logic is lost if you consider fishing. I guess he's above fishing in a pond with good artificial structure feeling it would be "unfair" and would prefer fishing in reservoirs. His only problem is that he and many other people feel the fence shoves deer into a corner and you'll never change their minds. Many smaller properties are unfortunately run like that on a "preserve" basis in nearly pen like conditions. However the original poster wasn't going to an operation like that. In fact lots of premium bucks on huge high fenced lands, like the 10,000 acres described, are never even seen until the rut and many of them are found dead of old age since the brush is almost impenetrable. The issue will always be very debatable of course but let's not forget that the anti's want us divided so let's unite under a unified hunting umbrella and not rip each other merely because of style over substance.

Edited by - soonershooter on 11/11/2002 12:38:32

Edited by - soonershooter on 11/11/2002 12:41:30

I do respect dep's point of view and respect his right to believe as he does. It probably really is a result of how you were raised and were taught as well as the area you are from. For instance, I live and hunt in the "deer factory" of Texas, the Texas hill country. I don't know of any counties in this area that issue doe tags anymore (not in the last 15 years) and they have never issued buck tags, so at least in this area, there are no limits on numbers of deer that can be taken. Surely, a game warden would take a close look at any property where that many deer come off, but they could all be taken legally. After all, just a family of 4 could take 16 deer legally off this property. I will continue to argue that this is too many deer for anyone to take off of 10 acres. I promise you that there are many areas where this is actually being done, at least in the hill country.

If reference to the deer being in jail. A deer on 10,000 acres has everything he needs to live a happy, normal (granted slightly restricted) life.

The only argument that really makes any sense to me is that the person with the high fence is restricting movement of "my" deer. Since the "people" of Texas own the deer and not the landowner, I would have to say that is a valid point, and not one for which I have a good comeback. However, I will not concide that a deer on 10,000 feels restricted or in jail. Sorry. We just have to agree to dissagree on this one.

Even if I was against high fencing, I would not be for laws restricting their use, because that is "big brother" telling me what I can and can't do on my own property. That would scare me.

Good hunting everyone, whatever the size of your property! And remember, size matters! LOL.