Nightmare in North Dakota
11-26-2007, 01:15 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1
Nightmare in North Dakota
“Buyer Beware” is as applicable to my recent North Dakota deer hunt as any idiom, but cannot fully grasp the complexity of the disaster to follow. Our “Nightmare in North Dakota” started last year when Chris Kalil of Middletown, Rhode Island, Rob McCarthy of Hanson, Massachusetts, Rich LaFazia of Coventry, Rhode Island and I booked a trip with Hidden Valley Outfitters of Wibaux, Montana. Our guide, Tracy Weyer, came highly recommended from the pro-staff of a major bow manufacturer, and we did due-diligence with our initial inquiries and correspondences throughout the year; except for one e-mail, no indication of the disaster to follow ever materialized in any of the e-mails or phone conversations. Our guide seemed both knowledgeable and professional. Again, he came highly recommended.
While the cost of any out of state deer hunt is high, a trip out West is extremely expensive. We paid an initial deposit of $1,000.00 in the summer to hold our reservation for an either species whitetail and/or mule deer hunt (or so we thought), with the $1,350.00 balance due just prior to the hunt. Round trip airfare was $564.00, two four-wheel drive vehicles at $482.00 each, $200.00 each for a license, and miscellaneous expenses, etc.; the price adds up quickly.
And although the initial cost of the hunt and transportation is a heavy consideration, other factors also play into the mix. I needed to outfit myself for possible extreme weather conditions and wanted top of the line gear. I called Brent Lawrence, Brand Communications Specialist for Bass Pro Shops, and explained to him that I was going on a North Dakota bowhunt and that I was going to seek national publication of the article(s) derived from it. He outfitted me with everything from a top of the line bow to cold weather undergarments, Glacier boots, arrows, etc. I was outfitted with the best gear in the industry.
As early as August, I was getting pumped up for the trip. I broke out the bow and started practicing, shooting broadheads at longer distances then I normally shoot until the bow was as tuned as I could get it and my shooting as good as it gets. When November rolled around, I was also ready to roll.
We arrived in Bismark on Wednesday, rented our vehicles, and then drove the three hours to Wibaux, Montana. Our guide was not present at the main lodge when we arrived, but we were directed by the cook to drive another 10 miles to a small camp where we would be staying for the week. It was phenomenal country and we saw numerous deer on the short drive. The camp, however, was anything but.
A strong methane gas odor greeted us at the door of the camp. It was so over-powering that we had to close the door to the bathroom to enter the camp. We later found an open drain line with no trap and placed a latex glove over it to contain the odor. In the bedrooms, mice feces covered the rugs, beds, and linens. Before we could settle in we had to clean the camp as best we could. Mice carry a myriad number of diseases including Hymenolepis, Favus, Endemic Typhus, Rickettsial pox, and Lymphocytic choriomeningitis. The bed linens had not been changed and were stained and discolored. We were all quickly getting a sinking feeling but tried to remain positive. We could live with all of this as long as the hunting was good. We aptly named our little camp “B Camp” and would apply that acronym to the hunt as well—more about that later.
We had a good dinner that night at the main lodge, told Guide Weyer about the odor and dirty linens and he gave us clean bedding. We paid him the balance for our hunt and he then instructed us to drive the 10 miles each morning in our own vehicles to the main lodge for an early breakfast. He also suggested that we take one of our vehicles to the area we would be hunting. The following morning he asked us to drive both vehicles but we refused, and Kalil and I rode with Weyer while McCarthy and LaFazia took their own vehicle. In other words, he wanted us to use our equipment to support his operation, when his website specifically addresses that he supplies transportation. But, again, we could live with that—as long as the hunting was good.
We found out that morning that our guide had four treestands and one ground blind set up for four hunters for a week of hunting. One of the treestands, however, was unusable because the cows had gotten into the area the previous day and knocked over the feeder. McCarthy and LaFazia took the ground blind and treestand located within 200 yards of each other on one property and Kalil and I went to another property. Weyer had literally thousands of acres of land to hunt and here are two hunters within 200 yards of each other.
Hunters can legally hunt over an active feeder in North Dakota, but our feeders were anything but active. There was little sign of activity at my feeder, other then the sign that cows had been there within the last few days-and cows and deer don’t mix. I could also hear the cows in the distance. It came as no surprise when we learned that there were no whitetails in the area.
Although Weyer said we could get down from the stands and still hunt if we liked, the country was not really conducive to still hunting with a bow as it was basically wide open with a few small, narrow draws. So these were our option for the week—hunt these four stands no matter which way the wind blows. Hopefully a deer would find the feeder once it realized the cows were no longer in the area. How long that would take was anyone’s guess. McCarthy and LaFazia saw a few does that night but Kalil and I saw nothing, other then a few antelope that came to my feeder.
“You’re area was probably “cowed –out, as we call it” said Terry Steinwald, Director of the North Dakota Game and Fish Department, when I spoke with him about the disappointing hunt we had with Hidden Valley Outfitters. Steinwald went on to say that they investigate complaints about outfitters and that all North Dakota outfitters legally working in the state are required to obtain a license. He promised to look into the matter.
Our group is all experienced hunters and we have all hunted a number of states across the mid-West and West. McCarthy had taken six Pope and Young animals with a bow in the last five years, and the rest of our group were also well experienced. I have hunted five Western states and published articles about my experiences on all of them, winning an award for best newspaper article for a Montana elk hunt. On previous hunts it wasn’t uncommon to have 30 or 40 active stands for four hunters. I had not always been successful but my guides had worked hard, and that’s all you ask. Everyone but me had hunted North Dakota in the past and commented on the quality and quantity of animals, and that’s why I was there. It is not uncommon to see 25 to 30 bucks in a day and a hundred or more deer. It had become painfully obvious that our guide had not put any effort into our hunt. We had been taken.
At the end of the first day, we all decided to pack up our gear and fly out. When we confronted Weyer that night following dinner, he held little in the way of argument nor did he try to dissuade us from leaving. We deciphered from this conversation that the pro-staff of the major bow manufacturer that recommended Weyer, had hunted another piece of property. Weyer, however, never offered to move us to this location. Much to our surprise, he did give us back the balance we paid him the previous day. But he still has $4,000 of our money.
We drove the ten miles back camp and were sitting around the table trying to come up with a way to save our hunt when Weyer’s F-350 pulled in. He came into the camp but never said a word and went into the bathroom to check on the odor and then left as quickly as he came. He retuned again five minutes later, came in and started spewing something about having had “2000 hunts under his belt and that we had no business telling him how to run his operation.” He told us to pack up our gear and get out that night. Now this was 10:00 at night and we had been up since 3:00 that morning, we were unfamiliar with the area, and the nearest town was almost 30 miles away. Rather then argue and stay another night in those dismal conditions, we just left.
We dove two hours to Dickinson and checked into a hotel. The next, actually that same morning, we drove to Bismarck, changed flights, and flew home. On the trip home, we sat next to three duck hunters from South Carolina that had a similar experience. They had been on the “A Hunt-B Hunt” plan as we were. The doctors and lawyers that were also in camp were coming in nightly with their limit of ducks, but these three blue collar workers never fired a shot the whole week they were there. This seemed to follow a similar pattern with our guide—give hunters that can promote his business (ie. the pro-staff) a great “A” hunt and stick the other guys in the “B” locations--in our case, “D” locations and accommodations.
One another note, the gun hunters staying at the main lodge and hunting Montana for whitetails all commented that they had a great hunt, the lodging was clean and spacious, and the food was hot and plentiful. Why we didn’t receive a similar experience I can’t guess. One thing one of the duck hunters I talked with on the plane that stuck in my mind and seemed most applicable to our hunt is that, “My money is as green as theirs.”
One final note: I’m not giving up on North Dakota. I’ve wanted to hunt here for years, and the hunting opportunities are too great. Like we told the duck hunters on the plane—don’t let a bad experience dissuade you from returning. Next year you’ll find me somewhere in the Badlands when the bow season rolls around but I can guarantee you one thing—Tracy Weyer won’t be at my side.
While the cost of any out of state deer hunt is high, a trip out West is extremely expensive. We paid an initial deposit of $1,000.00 in the summer to hold our reservation for an either species whitetail and/or mule deer hunt (or so we thought), with the $1,350.00 balance due just prior to the hunt. Round trip airfare was $564.00, two four-wheel drive vehicles at $482.00 each, $200.00 each for a license, and miscellaneous expenses, etc.; the price adds up quickly.
And although the initial cost of the hunt and transportation is a heavy consideration, other factors also play into the mix. I needed to outfit myself for possible extreme weather conditions and wanted top of the line gear. I called Brent Lawrence, Brand Communications Specialist for Bass Pro Shops, and explained to him that I was going on a North Dakota bowhunt and that I was going to seek national publication of the article(s) derived from it. He outfitted me with everything from a top of the line bow to cold weather undergarments, Glacier boots, arrows, etc. I was outfitted with the best gear in the industry.
As early as August, I was getting pumped up for the trip. I broke out the bow and started practicing, shooting broadheads at longer distances then I normally shoot until the bow was as tuned as I could get it and my shooting as good as it gets. When November rolled around, I was also ready to roll.
We arrived in Bismark on Wednesday, rented our vehicles, and then drove the three hours to Wibaux, Montana. Our guide was not present at the main lodge when we arrived, but we were directed by the cook to drive another 10 miles to a small camp where we would be staying for the week. It was phenomenal country and we saw numerous deer on the short drive. The camp, however, was anything but.
A strong methane gas odor greeted us at the door of the camp. It was so over-powering that we had to close the door to the bathroom to enter the camp. We later found an open drain line with no trap and placed a latex glove over it to contain the odor. In the bedrooms, mice feces covered the rugs, beds, and linens. Before we could settle in we had to clean the camp as best we could. Mice carry a myriad number of diseases including Hymenolepis, Favus, Endemic Typhus, Rickettsial pox, and Lymphocytic choriomeningitis. The bed linens had not been changed and were stained and discolored. We were all quickly getting a sinking feeling but tried to remain positive. We could live with all of this as long as the hunting was good. We aptly named our little camp “B Camp” and would apply that acronym to the hunt as well—more about that later.
We had a good dinner that night at the main lodge, told Guide Weyer about the odor and dirty linens and he gave us clean bedding. We paid him the balance for our hunt and he then instructed us to drive the 10 miles each morning in our own vehicles to the main lodge for an early breakfast. He also suggested that we take one of our vehicles to the area we would be hunting. The following morning he asked us to drive both vehicles but we refused, and Kalil and I rode with Weyer while McCarthy and LaFazia took their own vehicle. In other words, he wanted us to use our equipment to support his operation, when his website specifically addresses that he supplies transportation. But, again, we could live with that—as long as the hunting was good.
We found out that morning that our guide had four treestands and one ground blind set up for four hunters for a week of hunting. One of the treestands, however, was unusable because the cows had gotten into the area the previous day and knocked over the feeder. McCarthy and LaFazia took the ground blind and treestand located within 200 yards of each other on one property and Kalil and I went to another property. Weyer had literally thousands of acres of land to hunt and here are two hunters within 200 yards of each other.
Hunters can legally hunt over an active feeder in North Dakota, but our feeders were anything but active. There was little sign of activity at my feeder, other then the sign that cows had been there within the last few days-and cows and deer don’t mix. I could also hear the cows in the distance. It came as no surprise when we learned that there were no whitetails in the area.
Although Weyer said we could get down from the stands and still hunt if we liked, the country was not really conducive to still hunting with a bow as it was basically wide open with a few small, narrow draws. So these were our option for the week—hunt these four stands no matter which way the wind blows. Hopefully a deer would find the feeder once it realized the cows were no longer in the area. How long that would take was anyone’s guess. McCarthy and LaFazia saw a few does that night but Kalil and I saw nothing, other then a few antelope that came to my feeder.
“You’re area was probably “cowed –out, as we call it” said Terry Steinwald, Director of the North Dakota Game and Fish Department, when I spoke with him about the disappointing hunt we had with Hidden Valley Outfitters. Steinwald went on to say that they investigate complaints about outfitters and that all North Dakota outfitters legally working in the state are required to obtain a license. He promised to look into the matter.
Our group is all experienced hunters and we have all hunted a number of states across the mid-West and West. McCarthy had taken six Pope and Young animals with a bow in the last five years, and the rest of our group were also well experienced. I have hunted five Western states and published articles about my experiences on all of them, winning an award for best newspaper article for a Montana elk hunt. On previous hunts it wasn’t uncommon to have 30 or 40 active stands for four hunters. I had not always been successful but my guides had worked hard, and that’s all you ask. Everyone but me had hunted North Dakota in the past and commented on the quality and quantity of animals, and that’s why I was there. It is not uncommon to see 25 to 30 bucks in a day and a hundred or more deer. It had become painfully obvious that our guide had not put any effort into our hunt. We had been taken.
At the end of the first day, we all decided to pack up our gear and fly out. When we confronted Weyer that night following dinner, he held little in the way of argument nor did he try to dissuade us from leaving. We deciphered from this conversation that the pro-staff of the major bow manufacturer that recommended Weyer, had hunted another piece of property. Weyer, however, never offered to move us to this location. Much to our surprise, he did give us back the balance we paid him the previous day. But he still has $4,000 of our money.
We drove the ten miles back camp and were sitting around the table trying to come up with a way to save our hunt when Weyer’s F-350 pulled in. He came into the camp but never said a word and went into the bathroom to check on the odor and then left as quickly as he came. He retuned again five minutes later, came in and started spewing something about having had “2000 hunts under his belt and that we had no business telling him how to run his operation.” He told us to pack up our gear and get out that night. Now this was 10:00 at night and we had been up since 3:00 that morning, we were unfamiliar with the area, and the nearest town was almost 30 miles away. Rather then argue and stay another night in those dismal conditions, we just left.
We dove two hours to Dickinson and checked into a hotel. The next, actually that same morning, we drove to Bismarck, changed flights, and flew home. On the trip home, we sat next to three duck hunters from South Carolina that had a similar experience. They had been on the “A Hunt-B Hunt” plan as we were. The doctors and lawyers that were also in camp were coming in nightly with their limit of ducks, but these three blue collar workers never fired a shot the whole week they were there. This seemed to follow a similar pattern with our guide—give hunters that can promote his business (ie. the pro-staff) a great “A” hunt and stick the other guys in the “B” locations--in our case, “D” locations and accommodations.
One another note, the gun hunters staying at the main lodge and hunting Montana for whitetails all commented that they had a great hunt, the lodging was clean and spacious, and the food was hot and plentiful. Why we didn’t receive a similar experience I can’t guess. One thing one of the duck hunters I talked with on the plane that stuck in my mind and seemed most applicable to our hunt is that, “My money is as green as theirs.”
One final note: I’m not giving up on North Dakota. I’ve wanted to hunt here for years, and the hunting opportunities are too great. Like we told the duck hunters on the plane—don’t let a bad experience dissuade you from returning. Next year you’ll find me somewhere in the Badlands when the bow season rolls around but I can guarantee you one thing—Tracy Weyer won’t be at my side.
11-26-2007, 07:23 PM
#3
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Posts: 659
RE: Nightmare in North Dakota
not to hi-jack your thread, but that sounds alot like my alberta moose hunt. 4 stands on 2 licks. home of the "iron maiden" as huntnmuleys called it. horrible condition.
we sat in those stands for 6 days and seen 2 moose out of them. it was going to be a spot and stalk hunt, the guides couldn't find a moose. so there was no "spot" so we could not stalk!
horrible, ALBERTA ROCKY MTN ADVENTURE....beware!
STEVE; you want to hunt north dakota, p.m. me i gan give you some good areas to hunt. lots of big muleys!
p.s. sorry about the hunt, it sucks i know!
we sat in those stands for 6 days and seen 2 moose out of them. it was going to be a spot and stalk hunt, the guides couldn't find a moose. so there was no "spot" so we could not stalk!
horrible, ALBERTA ROCKY MTN ADVENTURE....beware!
STEVE; you want to hunt north dakota, p.m. me i gan give you some good areas to hunt. lots of big muleys!
p.s. sorry about the hunt, it sucks i know!
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