YOU ALL KNOW THE ONLY WAY TO SOLVE THIS, IS, DROP THE TAIL GATE AND LET THE B.S., STOP! MEET OUT WEST AND DO IT, AND UNLESS YOUVE DONE YOU DONT HAVE ROOM TO SPEAK ON THE SUBJECT.

If you want to drop the tailgate and hunt chukar (especially chukar), huns, valley quail, sharptails, grouse, etc., I' d like to get my setters in on that bet. Bring on the chessies, labs, shorthairs, brittanies, other continentals, whatever. You can even bring them all on at the same time. I like my odds.

Ironically, I know several individuals whose setters, like my own, will go headlong into the water to retrieve a downed bird. None of us, however, would even consider comparing our bird dogs to a retriever for this purpose. I wonder why the opposite is true...........

Seattlesetters,

Bring on the Chessies? How confident are you in your dogs? I concede that you and your dogs would out-perform my dogs and I on the birds you mentioned, but I could still fly to your state with my dogs -- hunt public land -- and leave with birds. I reside in Kentucky -- not your typical " bird hunters bonanza" , where bobwhites, woodcock and ruffed grouse are the targets. Are you that confident in your dogs ability where you would do the same? I can say this without convicition, you would leave this state with no quail, no woodcock and maybe... maybe a grouse. And that' s after a five day hunt -- on public land of course!

Now I agree that your " typical" retriever breeds don' t " stack-up" to pointers when it comes to upland birds, but making such a broad statement -- as some have made on this board -- is to err. Woodcock are my -- and my dogs -- favorite bird and each season I have people hunting with me who own pointers. Why? It' s not that their dogs are poor hunters, my dogs are just more experienced. My dogs and I average a minimum of 130 days in the field per season -- thanks to my job -- and we have hunted as many as 150 days. Quite frankly, my dogs are in the field close to 200 days when you factor in pre-season conditioning (we start in mid June) and training if I decide to run in trials. I am not comparing my dogs to your' s or any other pointing breed -- just don' t act like a flusher " can' t" do the same work as a pointer. I remember reading about a poodle awhile back that I know will out-perform my dogs (and most retrievers) when it comes to waterfowl. Why can' t there be flusher/retrievers that can do the same in the uplands?

I think I would get some birds. I' ve shot woodcock and grouse over my dogs in the Northeast and Upper Midwest. I' ve shot bobbies in Oklahoma and Texas, as well. My dogs did fine, even though they had never hunted that type of terrain or those types of birds. In fact, by the end of one trip, my stud male was actually producing more finds than the resident experienced dogs we were hunting with.


And if someone hunted good setters 150 days in your neck of the woods for just one season, I guarantee that the following season they would produce more of the birds you mention for the gun than any retriever. However, if the best retriever hunted 50 days a year (what I normally get in) for several years in my " ' hood," that retriever would still not have a prayer of finding more birds than my worst setter.

You' re right, I did say you might get a grouse. This isn' t Texas or the Upper Midwest!

I stand by my previous post. The one thing I have learned over the years is that when one is confronted with one-sided views or ignorance, it' s best to not walk, but run from it! From here on out, I will keep my post directed to what this site was originally intended for -- help. I' m sorry I even replied to this thread. Enough said!

They raise some of the finest English Setters in the world right there in Kentucky. The area is well known for producing the very best.

I just can' t seem to come to grips with the realization that they would breed such fine bird dogs in an area where a retriever does a better job on upland birds.

The one thing all the great hunting dogs have that each poster has mentioned is drive and some training. I would venture to say that if your bird dog whether it is a pointer, setter, flusher, or retriever has both of these things, you can put birds in the bag anywhere you go in the world. Sometimes the temps are hot, sometimes there cold. Sometimes we pick a bad spot to go hunting. Sometimes we pick the honey hole. Sometimes birds will hold, sometimes they won' t. Some dogs have bad days. Some hunters have days when they can' t hit there butts with there hands. Through it all, the good days and the bad days, the praises and the insults I would have to say I still made a good choice in hunting dogs. I have no regrets about owning a Lab and hunting upland birds with her. I don' t regret hunting waterfowl with my little 33lb. springer that thinks a 17lb. goose is just an overgrown fetching dummy. Someday I may own a pointing dog, but today I don' t and I do not regret that or feel that I have lost any birds because I don' t own one.
You may feel the same way about your dogs. Thats great!! I know my dogs aren' t the best in the world. But I tell them they are, and they believe it. I hope you all have a productive season this year. Mine starts on Sep. 1st. and ends on Jan 31. I don' t plan to miss much of it.

I think it is impossible to say just one breed is the best bird dog. I think there is suitable breeds for different birds and type of hunting. Here in Turkey we prefer English setters for woodcock hunt and pointers for partridge and quail hunt. I have a breton and according to me this breed is very efficient in pheasant hunt. It is really very difficult to say one breed is very efficient for hunting every kind of bird. But generally GPS and Drahthaars versatile dogs. So they can be adapted for every kind of upland game hunting easily. But they can never be an expert. It is not possible to do every thing perfect; you can do some of everything. Versatile dogs to some in every hunt but i have never seen an expert.
It is the same for dogs too. I prefer experts and hunt with different type of dogs for different type of games (also weather and plant cover)

tdulger I disagree with this statement For one many GSP' s do indeed not only to excel in area' s of so called experts but have continually beaten them in their own game. I understand you may not have seen them in Turkey because of being isolated but look at NSTRA, AKC field trials, AKC hunt tests, NAVHDA. The saying jack of all trades and master of none is a saying and does not have merit to the GSP. The GSP in more than one occaision has proven itself as a master or in your words an expert.

Now in all fairness you have a different level of natural ability in each dog within a certain breed. You also have to factor in training, which can be an influence as well. In the end though to find a good hunting dog you probably can not get much better at finding one in the GSP breed. One of the reason is they still have a good base of breeding stock to choose from. Not saying one can not be found in other breeds it just takes a lot more to find it.

LIKE I SAID, DROP THE TAILGATE AND LET THE BULL**** STOP, BRING ON THE CHESSIES AND LABS, THIS IS GETTING REALLY OLD!