CHUKARBUSTER

Hunter, Im a big supporter of gsps, but ive seen them devolpe several health promblems after prolonged exposer to extreme cold water, then sitting in a blind. Ive never tried a vest, nor do i hunt enough duck to buy one, so that something new to me, however ive scuba dived and i believe a vest works the same way, water heated by your heat, and a thin skinned dog sitting would still have a problem creating heat. Hell guess i need to stick with the uplands!!!!

seattlesetters

LKing - Yes, my input is biased. Here' s why: I have hunted with the very best " pointing" labs, ones crowned " champions" by whatever organization it is that sanctions such breeding. Ones that have won field trials and are widely considered the state of the art in " pointing" lab breeding. The ones the are the brood stock of all the best " pointing" lab kennels in the U.S. The Setters and Pointers made the labs look exactly like what they are: Retrievers. The only problem with that is that the Setters and Pointers beat the labs to the retreives, as well.

We also hunted on their home turf--thick brush and matted reeds and tules in the pursuit of pheasants--and the bird dogs found all those birds, too. The labs did get in on a few flushes, much to the dismay of the bird dogs who had been pointing and holding the roosters they flushed.

These are not " worst bird dog" stories. These are the best of the best as far as " champion pointing" labs are concerned, and they didn' t belong in the field with nice (but by no means " champion" ) bird dogs. It makes me shudder to think of putting these " pointing" labs in the field with real champion bird dogs, such as Tekoa Mountain Sunrise, Tomoka, The Performer, Destinaire, I' m Dick Too or Elhew Snakefoot. If you are to include them in this discussion about " best bird dog,' " that is precisely what you must do.

And by your own admission, comparing true bird dogs to " pointing" labs is like comparing " apples to oranges." If you cannot compare the two, perhaps the latter should be left out of any discussion surrounding the " best bird dog."

Hunters Edge

chukarbuster,

I have hunted GSP for years and have not seen or heard of others I know that use them for waterfowl have any health problems directly or inderectly related to late season waterfowling. Second if you do not hunt enough ducks to invest in a $30 vest you probably have never hunted waterfowl. By the way where did you get this information. Third GSP are not thin skinned they do have shorthair but they are not thin skinned.

I would suggest viewing a few pics on my web site www.huntersedgekennel.com or better yet there are two articles you may enjoy reading they are part 1 and part 2, www.shorthairs.net/thisis.html and www.shorthairs.net/thisis2.html . If you read these articles please pay close attention to which state they are discussing as far as cold or warm climates.

Big Lead

When I go chuckar hunting in your area, I have to drive about 8 hours to get there. I would not drive 8 hours to hunt for 3 hours. When I go over east I hunt all day every day. I go back to the truck 2 or 3 times per day. I usually hunt from sunrise to sundown. We hunt 3 hours, go to the truck refill my 1/2 gallon water bag, get a granola bar and head back up on the hill, or reposition the vehicles for convienance. We are never more than 1/2hour of watering and snacking. We then head back out and hunt till 2 or 3. We come back to the truck and eat a sandwich, maybe eat a granola bar and change our socks. Then we go out till sundown, which is usually from 6-8 depending on the time of the year. I have never ever had to put up either of my dogs for any reason. We usually do this for 2 or 3 days straight. Sometimes we do it for 5 days straight. I will admit that during the first month of season my lab does get tired. She also get hot, but she always will beat me up the hill to get a chuckar, or down the hill to the truck. I will gladly put you in touch with people who will confirm that every word I have spoken is the gospel truth. I think what many people overlook is that a dog does not have to race around, up and down the hill to find birds. They can get above you or below you and side hill along with you. A buddy of mine that hunts with me
uses my lab sometimes while I run my springer. He never talks to her or gives her any commands he just follows her wherever she wants to go. He gets more good shots at birds than the rest of us. What it all boils down to is let the dog set the pace. If they want to cover some ground let them. If they want to stay above you and side hill, let em. They do not have to run a 50 yd. winshield wiper pattern up and down the hill to make you successful. My Springer generally runs a 35yd. pattern above, below and in front of me. She finds a lot of birds. My Lab likes to work sidehill about 30 yds above me. When I see her start to wind, I march straight toward her. After we flush a covey of Chuckars I try to mark them down, then get above them, or have a buddy of mine flank them and send them back my way. Now if you want any more proof, I will tell you exact locations were we use these methods. I am sure you have hunted the same places Randy.
On a side note I will gladly admit that there are a lot of labs that are not very good at chuckars. I took a fellow over with me in early NOV. who swore he would kill more chuckars than any of us. He also said his little yellow lab Lesly would do just fine. After about 1 hour his Lab was walking behind him and he was heading for the truck to rest himself and his dog. He tried hunting her a little more, and she was basically useless. She is a nice dog at ducks, but was not cut out for Chuckars. I fear that many people would judge the entire breed from seeing one or two dogs like this. I can see why many pointer folks look down on the retrieving breeds when they see a few dogs that are not in good shape being forced to hunt rugged terrain. In my opinion there are 2 things that make the difference between an awesome Lab and and a not so great Lab. Prey Drive and Physical condition. If the dog has both they will hunt all day with water breaks, because when there energy gives out fresh bird scent will reinvigerate them. Another point Randy is that its not always over 80 degrees in your neck of the woods. In fact for the majority of Chuckar season it can get downright nippy. Any bird dog Retriever, Flusher, or pointer will last more than 3 hours when its 40 degrees out. If they can' t, I won' t take them with me. All I can tell you folks is my personal expeirience. I can think of numerous times when I have seen a certain breed fail on a simple retrieve, or let a wounded bird get away because they wanted to go find another live one. I hunted behind a guy 2 years ago with a Shorthair that gave up on wing tipped birds. The fellow would try to get the dog to hunt dead and he would just run off to find another live one. When I came through
a couple hours later, my lab chased all three down, and I filled my limit on his cripples. Now I could very easily argue that shorthairs don' t hunt dead as good as Labs. But I know that a hundred guys would have a story about how his dog did the same thing to this breed of dog or whatever. The point I am trying to make is
making general statements like " Labs don' t hunt Chuckars" is like saying " White men can' t jump" One more gripe then I will quit. Making statements like " Retrievers are not real bird dogs" is quite a bit more silly than the chuckar statement. I have a feeling that folks that made that statement are running either an English setter or english pointer. Now lets break this down. Bobwhite quail are not the only bird in the US. I know those pointer people that are from OK may think so.
So since when has waterfowl, pheasants, huns, chuckars, sage grouse, sharptail grouse, ruffed grouse, blue grouse, valley quail, Mountain quail, several species of desert quail, dove, band tailed pigeon, snipe, Spruce grouse, turkey, and crows
fallen out of the bird category. I have a critter about 20 feet away that has hunted and retrieved 13 of those. So according to there math the real birdog has to hunt one specie( bobwhite quail) very well to be considered a real bird dog, and the other dog is not worthy to carry the name. I guess I will start calling them something besides a bird dog. Maybe I will call the dog that has hunted all the species the " Ultimate Super Duper Gundog" Go ahead and keep the bird dog title.
If being awesome at one type of bird is all it takes to get it, I would' nt insult my dog with the name. Phew!!!

LKing

Been on vacation for a day turkey hunting so I see I have some ground to make up! First off, let me say I enjoy having this kind of discussion.

1) Big Lead - nice points, I agree.

2)Hunter' s edge - I agree with your 1st paragraph. I should have said faster and wider ranging. In your 3rd paragraph you lose me a bit, I' m not sure where I ever said that a lab was BEST, as a matter of fact, I said just the opposite. I own labs and DO NOT believe they are the best upland bird dog.

Seattle -
Maybe you didn' t understand my words, " I really don' t believe a nice english pointer or setter can be beat in the field." In case you' re unclear, we' re on the same page here.

# I would really like to know what famous pointing labs you' ve hunted behind if they are only stopping and pointing for a few seconds and then flushing the bird as you state in an earlier thread.?????

# Pay close attention to terrain. I do most of my bird hunting in northern and north-western wisconsin. The best bird dog, which this thread is about, if it was a pointer or even a setter perhaps, ranging as far as they do, would be a small pile of bones in a day or two of hunting as they would provide a nice meal for the timber wolves. Coon hounds, bear dogs, and big swinging bird dogs are delicacies for the wolves. Now, in this type of terrain, you tell me what breed would suit me best??? Piles of bones can' t hunt!

uplandchessies

Biglead is RIGHT!!!! What makes a dog a bird dog is " wild bird" experience not titles! Also, pre-season conditioning is what allows a dog to go all day. My dogs --Chessies, open the season up on September 1st with mourning doves and we close it out on the 28th of February with ruffed grouse. If we miss twenty days of hunting through December it would be considered a lot. So yes, retrievers are bird dogs! In fact, being from Kentucky and venturing to Michigan a few times a year, my dogs are more bobwhite, ruffed grouse, woodcock dogs than they are anything else -- and aren' t these birds considered " pointing dog" birds almost exclusively?

As far as trial dogs are concerned (I have dabbled in AKC hunt test) -- sure, they can perform miracles on the trial circuit, but couldn' t hold a candle to a dog (regardless of breed) that does nothing but hunt. Before I make anyone mad let me say that I am referring to dogs that trial only -- dogs that do both usually are good hunters. Again, it all comes down to conditioning and " wild bird" experience.

Sorry I chimed in and got away from the subject!!!

CHUKARBUSTER

BL, hell the only way to settle it put them on the ground. i do demand my dog cover ground to locate birds. by your post it sounds like YOU are a better dog than your lab, if your walking him into the birds, if your dog is always above you there must never be any birds below you? and we do hunt more than 3 hours a day, but thats usally the norm from being gone from the rig.
So we will be close to you for about two weeks hunting MT QUAIL, and grouse, and as far the SUPER dogs, for all spiecies hunt could agree more, ever use your lab to hunt turkeys! how about AZ three in a day, neb bobs sharp sage spruce ruffs blues along with the commons. be there done that.
On a lghter note, you ever hunt the breaks between farewell and the oregon slope, towards weiser?

Big Lead

You made a good point Randy. I do a lot of walking. I thing I rely on the most is my dogs sense of smell. Chuckars are a wandering bird. They don' t hang out in one little draw or one little hill. They move around all over the mountain and mostly on foot. I guess you could say I hunt them like you would a fox or a bear. We see them or hear them up in the rocks then start in that direction. The dog picks up the scent and starts to track them. When the trail gets hot you better huff on your asthma huffer take a good drink of water and tighten your belt, because you' ve got a dog to keep up with. I never said that labs were the greatest chuckar dogs. I am sure that with your expeirience at chuckar hunting and your dogs expeiriece you would blow me away in sheer numbers of birds found or killed. What I am saying is when I go over east I get birds. I generally get 3 or 4 a day of chuckar and a couple quail as I am leaving the creek bottoms.
These are on public grounds that get hunted quite a bit. I do not have any honey holes that I have exclusive priveleges to. I don' t want to talk about my exact hunting spots, but I will give you a couple of letters. For the opener we hunted up W. creek out of the little community of B. We hunted all the way from where the private property ends to where it starts again at the creek forks. We got into a couple of pheasants, huns, chuckars and bagged a nice bunch of quail too. I missed the huns so that is one of the birds that have gotten away. This was the first time I had ever been to that area. I knew nothing except it looked like a likely spot. My dogs lasted all day without a problem in this area. In addition to my birds, my dogs found a couple of my buddies birds that his dog failed to recover. We had a good time and hunted hard the entire time. We did a lot of repositioning, but all total the dogs were on the ground for 8 hours that day.
I also hunted out of Jun. a couple of times. There are some nice deep canyons over there. I hunted out of Frenchglen 3 times for 3 days each time. We found a ton of birds but after the first 2 days they ran like heck when they saw you coming. We ended up hunting the flats above the rimrock and got some up there.
I was on the ground for a total of 10 hours that day. It was cold out and there was patches of snow that the dogs would take a bite out of when they needed it.
Now as far as hunting around here. We mostly drive around to springs, creeks, heliponds and along rivers until we hear or see mountain quail. Then we turn out the dogs and pursue them until we get a couple. Each covey gets about or 15 minutes to 1/2hour of hunting time. Many times its 80 or 85 out. We just keep the hunts short. Water the dogs when we finish on a covey, and let them jump in the creek pond or river we are hunting near. The only time I wore my Lab out on them was when my springer was in for some training. She had to handle about 9 different coveys with 5 minutes of rest between each covey in steep terrain. We also bagged a couple of blues on that hunt. By the time we got to the last covey that day she was bringing back the dead ones at a slow walk. We got 13 quail and 2 grouse in 4 hours. I got 9 of the quail which is considered a super day. I' ve got pictures of that hunt, and at the end of it the dog was dog tired. Now with both dogs working the flushing and retrieving duties they don' t wear out. Its a different type of hunting to say the least. Its what my dogs are the best at though. If you come over this way I will give you a forest service map with some X' s on it, and we will get you a little more exitement than you had last time. Upland Chessies is flying out to hunt with me this year so we will get a chance to swap stories. Speaking of which, You should see the bear I got on Tues. afternoon. If I can have someone post the pics for me, I would like all on the board to see this one. How about it you guys. I am not very computer savy, and can email some of my photos of the bruin. He is the bear of a lifetime.

seattlesetters

Big Lead - E-mail the pics and I' ll see what I can do for you. A big bear is a treat for all of us to marvel at!

CHUKARBUSTER

BL, I THINK WE BOTH MADE VALID POINTS, AND I HOPE WE CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE. I JUST DONT HUNT ANY WATERFOWL SO GREW UP AND STUCK WITH POINTING LINES AND A COUPLE OF SPRINGERS, SO ENOUGH SAID.
LAST YEAR I HAD 16 MT QUAIL IN 3 DAYS AND A FEW RUFFS AS BOUNUS BIRDS. THE REASON I WAS ASKING ABOUT THE SLOPE AREA, I SPENT 4 HOURS WITH BLM ACSESS AND ENFORCEMENT YESTERDAY, THERE HAS BEEN SONE LAND POSTED THERE THATS BLM, IM TALKING 1000s OF ACRES, I ALWAYS SEEN CHUKARS BY THE GORDS IN THERE. ALSO IF YOU LIKE GOOSE HUNTING THERE ARE A COUPLE FARMERS IN THAT AREA THAT LOVE TO SEE GEESE OUT OF THERE FIELDS, BUT THERE A LITTLE BIG FOR MY .410.
ALSO IF YOU EVER THINK YOU MIGHT WANT TO TRY A POINTING BREEED, I JUST BREED A GRANDDAUGHTER OF DIXIELAND RUSTY TO MCGINNIS LINE, SHOULD MAKE A EXELLENT MID RANGE DOG WITH LOTS OF NATURAL INSTINCTS.

RANDY