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Aiming vs Instinctive
I was answering a question on the bowhunting forum about how long it takes to get good with a stickbow and thought part of my response would be good for a little pot stirring here.
 ;)Here's what I said: Where I think so many people go wrong is believing they're supposed to shoot 'instinctive' because it's said that's the way the cavemen/indians/whoever shot. Well, I was taught to shoot indian fashion when I was a tyke, pinching the nock between my thumb and forefinger, drawing back almost to my face and eyeballing down the arrow at what I wanted to shoot. Nothing instinctive about it. I shot that way for a long time - and killed mucho game - before learning about anchor points and stuff. The idea that the original archers - who survived by getting their meat and fighting off their enemies with the bow - shot instinctive doesn't make sense. When your life is on the line, I doubt you'd want to rely on The Force to make your arrow hit where you want it to. You're going to take careful aim before releasing. Besides that, good arrows were every expensive in terms of time and energy spent. They wouldn't have just jerked the string back and released that arrow willynilly into the ether and hoped for the best. They'd have aimed. The arrow is right there in your field of vision. You might as well use it as an aiming reference. I'm positive our ancestors were smart enough to figure that out. The aiming method I use is the split vision gap shooting style used by Howard Hill. Byron Ferguson explains it in his book "Become the Arrow" far better than Hill did. When you learn the gap system and use it enough to become confident, you eventually quit thinking about the gap. Your brain figures the distance and gap automatically. In other words, with time and experience the gap becomes more or less 'instinctive.' For beginners, they can pick a gap at a given distance, see where the arrow strikes in relation to their aim point, then adjust their gap to put them on target. With instinctive, there is no way for them to make adjustment because they don't know where they were aiming to begin with. It takes a lot of trial and error - mostly error - to learn to shoot instinctive. A beginner using an aiming method will become a better shooter, faster, than another who's blundering about with instinctive shooting, stubbornly clinging to a false premise. |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
I stayed up late last night so I could finish Fred Bear's Archer's Bible, which I just started last night.
He has a section in it on different sighting methods- instinctive, gap, string walking and sites. He highly recomends one learn to shoot instictive, get the arrow under the eye and let the brain adjust elevation, for hunting, says it's more reliable and faster in hunting situations. I came to work today fully committed to continuing down the instictive path, then this :( A beginner using an aiming method will become a better shooter, faster, than another who's blundering about with instinctive shooting, stubbornly clinging to a false premise. As you know, I'm a "beginner", and for the past few weeks have been shooting my recurve purely instictive. Can regularly hit the kill zone out to about 15 yards, any further and I get wild, I think it's because of the cement wall with the electrical service box on it directly behind my target :) Haven't had a chance yet to shoot outside at a local range where I don't have to worry about such things. Art, to make up for this pot stirring, how 'bout posting a tutorial on your aiming method? |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Uh oh... I know how I aim, but I don't know how well I can explain it. Now I'm gonna have to think! and it hurts!
 Let's see. First I look at what I want to hit, pick my spot, and determine where I will hold the tip of my arrow in relation to the target. I don't think about yardage so much as I think about the trajectory my arrow will take to go the distance I'm looking at. That's the hard part to explain. Ferguson says to judge the distance in steps instead of yards. Maybe his way is better for a beginner. Anyway, I've got my aim point determined and have visualized the shot and trajectory before I ever draw the bow. As I draw, I concentrate on the spot I've picked but am also keeping track of the arrow's tip in my peripheral vision. I never look directly at the arrow though. I'm focused on my spot but am aware of the arrow tip. I get to full draw: if my tip isn't on my aim point - my subconscious knows what I want and adjusts elevation during the draw, so it usually is on my aim point - I make adjustment and then release. It doesn't take as long to do as it takes to explain. Everybody I've ever shot with comments on how quick I draw and shoot. |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
ORIGINAL: Arthur P Uh oh... I know how I aim, but I don't know how well I can explain it. Now I'm gonna have to think! and it hurts! Let's see. First I look at what I want to hit, pick my spot, and determine where I will hold the tip of my arrow in relation to the target. I don't think about yardage so much as I think about the trajectory my arrow will take to go the distance I'm looking at. That's the hard part to explain. Ferguson says to judge the distance in steps instead of yards. Maybe his way is better for a beginner. Anyway, I've got my aim point determined and have visualized the shot and trajectory before I ever draw the bow. As I draw, I concentrate on the spot I've picked but am also keeping track of the arrow's tip in my peripheral vision. I never look directly at the arrow though. I'm focused on my spot but am aware of the arrow tip. I get to full draw: if my tip isn't on my aim point - my subconscious knows what I want and adjusts elevation during the draw, so it usually is on my aim point - I make adjustment and then release. It doesn't take as long to do as it takes to explain. Everybody I've ever shot with comments on how quick I draw and shoot. :D |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Can't remember, do you shoot split finger or 3 under?
Gaps would be bigger at same ranges than 3 under since you're launching the arrow more up, right? Which do you recommend for a "beginner" (please don't say 3 under please don't say 3 under please don't say 3 under...) |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
I think you did real good Art--thanks for sharing! In my opinion, Fred Bear suggests "instinctive" for hunting because often you don't have the time to judge the distance, gap, etc. However, like Art said, in time it will become automatic--you won't have to spend time doing that, your brain figures it out almost instantly.
I was watching my G. Fred "Instinctive Shooting" tape again last night (knocks me out when I'm having trouble going to sleep), and noticed all three of his "students" pausing before they released--obviously not snap shooting like he does. He gave them praise though, so I guess they were ok.[8D] I think you will save yourself a lot of time and frustration learning to gap first, then letting instinct take over, vs. trying to train your brain to shoot instinctively from the beginning. You need referances, and aiming will get you on target quicker and make it more fun. Chad |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Do you guy's feel Furgeson's book is the best read on gap shooting?
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RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Ferguson's book is one of the best I've seen on shooting a bow, period. I don't agree with everything in it, especially the part about wood arrows, but I don't think you can beat it for simplicity and good information.
3-under gets the arrow closer to your eye, but IMO use whichever works best for you. I like split. Chad |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
I've flung a few 3 under, doesn't feel good to me at all. Maybe later I'll give it an honest try when I've put the '04/'05 deer season behind me and can dedicate some real time to the recurve...
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RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Range, I shoot both but usually stick with split. Gaps with 3-under would be tighter than the same gaps with split - assuming you anchor with the same finger with both. Anchoring with the index finger with 3-under, the gap would be pretty close to the same as shooting split but anchoring with the middle finger. (But that's getting a little bit into the theory of face walking, a whole 'nuther aiming method.)
When it comes to split finger vs 3-under, I don't think one is any better or worse than the other. To paraphrase what Chad said, you should use whichever feels most natural to you and gives you the most confidence. |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Ive found that putting that fiber optic dot on the target and squeezing the trigger on my Beretta AL-391 with a 1500 fps load works real nice like. Any questions?...Oppps...wrong forum...hehehehe
If ya like it...shoot it! Jaw |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Do you guy's feel Furgeson's book is the best read on gap shooting? |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Beretta... ain't that a cheap@$$ Chevrolet?
 How ya doin', James? Long time, no see.  |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
:DI'm perfect Arthur...Thanks for asking...I couldn't help myself...just had to poke a lil fun.
Hope you had a great holiday and you and yours are all healty. It's time to go catch a few trout.Gimmie a shout ole friend. Jaw |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Good thread. Arthur P thanks for the explanation it helped my shooting already. I read the book by Asbell and he says never look down the arrow or at the arrow, only the target where you want to hit. I noticed when shooting when I watch the arrow with my peripheral vision as you describe I shoot much better than when I concentrate only on the spot I want to hit. I've spent a lot of time trying to make myself not see the arrow but have not been that accurate or progressing very fast. Last night after reading this post I shot some groups and shot better than I have in quite a while. I think it will help me a lot, I've always been more comfortable shooting that way but was under the impression that it was incorrect.
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RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Mez, there is no one right or wrong way to shoot. Some folks give that impression, but it only shows (to me anyhow) that they really don't know as much as they think. There are lots of great shots that use different methods--go with what works best for you.
Chad |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Instinctive vs gap has been argued for years. I'll make you a deal: You shoot how you like & I'll shoot how I like. The only rule is that neither of us can roll on the ground laughing!:D
OK?? |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Mez, if you want to give "instinctive" another try, you might try a different perspective. Rick Welch's instructional video Volume II may help. He does a lot of stuff that Asbell says it totally wrong, but I dare say Welch could shoot circles around Asbell (Rick is a high-ranked competitor). In the video, Rick does not use a high wrist grip (looks like a medium, maybe medium/low wrist grip), he draws a bit past his anchor and settles in (not a resting point according to Asbell), and shoots 3-under (double no-no according to Asbell). Rick also shoots standing straight up with his bow verticle (wrong and wrong again according to Asbell). Rick spends some time explaining the release, in Asbell's video he has a segment that is labeled as "Release", but he only mentions that release problems are really bow hand problems and goes off in that direction, never giving any real information on the release itself.
I don't agree with everything Welch says in his video--but that's just my point. I don't recall him ever saying "you have to do it just like this, or you are wrong", while Asbell mostly maintains "do it just like this". Rick proves his technique works, at least for him, by making several shots at different yardages on the tape. You might incorporate a little of both in your style and have it work for you. Don't get hung up on what one "expert" says--try different things and use what works best for you. Chad |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Thanks Chad, I'll look into that video. I shoot a high wrist, which took forever to get used to and just now is starting to feel comfortable. I was also snap shooting, for lack of a better term as Asbell also states you should release as soon as you come to anchor and I think that was hurting me also. I've recently met a local shop owner who shoots traditional and has a traditional league once a week which I'm going to start attending. I was shooting in his shop and he wanted to try my bow and I watched in awe as he put 7 arrows, all touching in the X at 20 yards. First thing I noticed was that he came to full draw and settled in prior to releasing. I thought anybody who can pick up a bow he's never touched and do that must know something so I've been settling in a little more and that has also helped. I didn't want to develop bad habits and Asbell was so adament about all of his points I tried to duplicate it and ended up fairly frustrated.
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RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
There are a lot of questions out there about books and videos. I must say I have a library of at least 60 books and twice that of videos. I enjoy reading them or watching them almost every evening before bed. What a way to wind down the day. My wife asked me once why I have all of that stuff and can not hit the side of the barn with my longbow. Simple, I only get time to shoot may be 25 arrows a month. I love traditional archery, the books, the people, and the equipment. Untill I get more practice, I will have to continue to hunt with my compound with sites. (like shooting a rifle) and I have never had a miss out to 40 yards (my max) he had better be holding still though with all the gadgets and laser rangefinder it requires of me.
The point is, all of the books and videos should be taken with a grain of salt. It is practice which will get you on the paper. OLN showed an episode of a Judge shooting a buck on a slow run not 20' from him after jumping a fence. He nailed it. You can not do that unless you are instinctive shooting. That is what I am aiming for. |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Mez, that's what burns me about Asbell, or any other "expert" that proclaims you have to do things exactly like they do or you are wrong--it can cause a lot of problems for someone that doesn't know any better. He may be a great teacher in person, but the books and video don't impress me at all. He should know as well as anyone there is no one method that works best for everybody. He may not mean it that way, because in the video the "students" are obviously not shooting exactly like he does and he is telling them what a great job they are doing, but he sure comes across that way.
STA, I saw that show--one of the rare occasions I get to watch TV--and I think that the judge was shooting "instinctive", but I disagree that is the only way anyone could make that shot. I used to gap shoot (still do on long shots), and shot at the Howard Hill World Longbow and Recurve Championship when I was gap shooting. Over half the targets were moving targets--some swayed back and forth, some charged at you, some shot across in front of you, etc. I was able to shoot those targets using the gap method. Instictive may be easier with moving targets, and may be the only option for a split-second shot, but when you see the target coming and have time to set up, gap shooting works also. Chad |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Read "Hunting the Hard Way." Howard Hill wrote a good bit about shooting moving game animals, including one hog that was charging him and a buffalo he shot Indian style, from atop a running horse. Byron Ferguson shoots aspirins out of the air... Neither of them ever claimed to be instinctive shooters but have no trouble with moving targets.
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RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
I think this subject has been discussed and debated for as long as I can remember.....it was debated back in the early 60's when traditional archery was just plain archery.
I will flat out state that I am unable to shoot instinctively...period! It blows my mind to hear an instinctive shooter state he doesn't know the distance, doesn't see his arrow, and just burns a hole and the arrow goes there. My archery, and in fact all my shooting sport, training just will not accept or allow myself to shoot that way. All other shooting sports reference to the equipment in some manner inorder to hit their mark.... my mind just will not let me do it any other way (unless I am inside of 15 yards.  )Arthur's method closely resembles the way I shoot........split finger with longbows due to class requirements only and 3 under with recurves. My longbow shooting is ok but still needs a ways to go. Recurve with 3 under using the point of the arrow as a point of aim is like shooting sights for me and has a much higher degree of accuracy. But, I luv shooting my longbows far better.......doesn't figure huh? Chad and the others are right......shoot how ever it feels the most natural because that will be the most consistantly repeatable form for you to use. I have seen target archers, especially compound archers, with horrible form shoot extremely well because they consistantly repeated their horrible form on every shot. |
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AP your method of shooting is very similar to mine,except I shoot 3 under.I think it is much easier to learn this way.The gaps do become instinctive or muscle memory over time if you shoot the same bow arrow combo.I find that at 20 yds an under I dont even consciously look at the arrow.At longer ranges I find myself paying more attention to the gap when drawing the bow.This past deer season I had a tree rat come by me on the ground.I don't remember gapping or aiming.The shot presented itself and I just pinned his head to the ground at 15 yds. :D
CB |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Here while back, I found out my left shoulder was in bad shape with arthritis and, rather than quit shooting, I switched to lefty. Knowing how to use my arrow as an aiming reference has made the transition pretty simple. I'm still not much good beyond 15 yards, but am making good progress. I tried instinctive when I first switched. It was scary how bad I was missing at 5 yards!
On a related note, I've certainly learned why Fred Bear leaned his head and canted his bow so much. Shooting lefty with a dominant right eye, you've GOT to do that to get the arrow under your 'good' eye. |
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That would explain why I also shoot better when I cant the bow further and lean my head. I'm shooting right handed left eye dominant. You guys are full of good information.
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RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
What LBR said really hit for me. When I first to archery, four years ago, I bypassed target archery and compound archery for the traditional stuff. I was told the only book I would need to learn to shoot was by Fred G. Asbell. Anyway, I practiced every day, and after three years my effective range shooting instinctively was hardly more than twenty yards. If I got out of the range, my arrows always fell short.
I know there are excellent instinctive shooters out there, but I have a feeling that instinctive shooting isn't so much instincts but training your mind to hold a certain position from a certain distance. At any rate, I bought Byron Ferguson's book become the arrow, and I am far more consistent now than I have ever been. Albeit, at around ten to fifteen yards I often revert back to instinctive. I like Ferguson's method because I have a better idea of where my arrow is going. Visualizing the path of the arrow before shooting has really helped me. I think I'm more of a mechanical person by nature, and Asbell's books were too rigid and non-explanatory for me. However, I'm sure they've worked for other people. |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
help me understand something I have thought a lot on.
If you shoot same eye dominance (meaning left eye, left hand shooting, right eye right handed) is there any way you CANNOT use a sight system ? Either using the point of the arrow or the shaft, either consicously or subconsciously ? I am cross dominant. When I pick up a left handed bows its very apparent to me as I draw to shoot the arrow, point and the lining up of those to the target. Shooting right handed (my "normal" way) its impossible to do that because of my left eye dominance. See what I am getting at ? |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
I've thought about that as well. I can honestly say that where my anchor is located (second molar), that the arrow should always be in my secondary vision. If the arrow isn't in my split-vision it won't hit. So for me, consciously or subconsciously, if I were to look for the arrow, for a shot I knew I was going to make, I would find it. I think that's one problem I had with Asbell's books, according to him I shouldn't have been able to see the arrow. To make up for that I tried turning my head, etc. All I ever managed to do without the arrow in my split vision was to miss. I think that in Asbell's case, with his finger pointed at the target method and high anchor, he must be aware of the arrow on a subconscious level.
I have met people who anchor to their chests, and they seem to be pretty accurate with that method. I know that one of them has absolutely no idea where the arrow is in his secondary vision. He draw to the right side of his chest and is right eye dominant. So, I think it depends on where the anchor point is. |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Datamax, there are two ways you can do that, and one is iffy. The iffy method would be similar to the Asbell method: swing draw (so your arrow is not in your line of sight), and release immediately (snap shoot). Still, you may get a split second to referance with the shaft.
The other is to shoot in total darkness. This will tell you real quick if you are really shooting "totally instinctive". I know I referance subconciously--it usually takes me a few shots to get "on" at a coon shoot. Sometimes I never do get it just right! Chad |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
LBR - a better way is to switch the way you shoot and eye domiance.
I've shot at night and it doesn't hurt my shooting much because I shoot truly instinctive because I have no choice with shooting cross dominant eye |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Distances can be decieving in dim light or darkness. Just because you don't score as good at a 'coon shoot' doesn't mean you're not shooting "instinctive". (Whatever "shooting instinctive" means.;))
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RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
The indians did shoot instinctive because they knew that there life depended on them being able to shoot standing up lying dow on a hores when you are in battle and in many situations where you must shoot fast and you don't have time to aim. They had the knoledge to know that if they relied on thier natural hand eye cordination that they who be using the most reliable thing of all your brain which is better than the most enhanced computer ther is. Now isn't that better than putting your trust in some sort of aiming system.
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RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
I agree Vic--but total darkness is the only situation I can think of where you can't use the arrow as a referance, conciously or not. "Instinctive" does have different definitions, depending on who you are talking to.
BB, I don't claim to be any kind of expert or historian, but as best I can gather the Indians relied on getting close, especially to game. They didn't have spine testers and scales so I imagine a set of matched arrows was out of the question. The best shots I know and have read about all use some sort of aiming system. Chad |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
I think Kidwell says something about this in his book, "Instinctive Archery Insights". He says that he cants the bow until the arrow is somewhere between both of his eyes. He says this is necessary to shoot instinctively.
In a way though, even point of aim, gap, string-walking and the like are some what instinctive. I have to sort of guess at distances when I shoot. I see the arrow in my peripheral vision, and I notice its location in relation to the target and loose. At certain distances I don't actively measure the distance, it's sort of instinctual, if it can be called that. |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
Bigbuck, I disagree that using instincts is better than aiming. I think that an archer should use what works for him/her. If I'm further than fifteen yards, I am not going to take an instinctive shot at an animal. It would be unethical for me to do so, because I'm not very accurate with that method of shooting.
By the way, I can shoot from my knees, off a stand and in other strange positions as well, all while using a gap style method of aim. |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
It is not possible to shoot cross dominant using an aiming system simply impossible. If you do not believe me try it ! Conversely I think its literally impossible to not use at least a subconsicous aiming system when shooting same domianance. i do not know that I can prove that other than suggesting that everyone shoot the other way for a while and try it. Maybe I am wrong but I've shot both ways
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RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
I was actually thinking you were correct, at least according to what Kidwell wrote in his book.
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RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
The indians did shoot instinctive because they knew that there life depended on them being able to shoot standing up lying dow on a hores when you are in battle and in many situations where you must shoot fast and you don't have time to aim. They had the knoledge to know that if they relied on thier natural hand eye cordination that they who be using the most reliable thing of all your brain which is better than the most enhanced computer ther is. edit- that sounded a little too short and argumentative, so I thought I'd better explain further... Point is, you can't KNOW that Indians didn't use an aiming system. You can only guess. I can't KNOW that the way I was taught to shoot is truly the way they did it. I know the Comanche and Apache kids I grew up with were taught the same way I was. To pull the arrow back close to the face and eyeball down the arrow shaft. Some of us shot with a split 2-finger release and some shot with the pinch draw. Even then, when you make your living with a bow in your hand, I'm sure shooting becomes a lot more automatic than it ever will be for any modern man but I seriously doubt the indians were totally committed to instinctive shooting. I think there's a lot of modern white romanticism going on when someone says indians were purely instinctive shooters. |
RE: Aiming vs Instinctive
What I said was just my oppion on the whole thing and I am sorry if I offended anyone.
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