Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Men,
How many of you feel the 3 are directly related ? As a Traditional bowhunter since 1975 I feel the choice of equipment isethically and MORALLY adesicion just as important as how far to shoot at game,wether to jacklight,poach,not tag ect ! Hunting with a 40# recurve and a 250 grain arrow with a mech.head attached is morally and etically "WRONG" !JMHO
Tj

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

I don't agree with using a mech. head or that lite an arrow but a 40# recurve shooting a 9-10 gr/lb arrow put in the right place will kill just about anything on this continent

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Jim,
And would you say that that set up I described be "UNETHICAL"??? I sure would ! and Its a equipment choice!
Tj

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Jim,
My point is thatEQUIPMENT is an ETHICAL choice and thewrong choice could make you ethically and morally a negative light for all bowhunters.
Tj

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

How come I feel like this is the same poster as another guy on here?

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Then don't use that kind of equipment.I think most traditional hunters know what works for them.If you know people that use that kind of set-up,don't hunt hunt with them

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Has this example EVER been advocated by anyone anywhere?
If so, where specifically and by whom?

Steve

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Good to see you TJ. I see you haven't changed much. LOL!:D

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

well, without getting drawn up into the ethics argument I think is ready to ensue..

the lower your bow weight, the more you have to depend on momentum for clean kills...

I shoot a 52lb bow and use a 700+ grain arrow...

why? just because I want to make sure I poke two holes in a deer or black bear... makes recovery easier.

would I demand someone else use this set-up? No. Why? Because it's what I choose to use, and it's not going to work for everyone.

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Razorhead,
exactly ! you obviously understand that a lighter weight bow needs a heavier arrow to utilize every possible ounce of energy to be the most efficiant tool for killing at least deer sized animals. And that has been my point all along, I have surfed quite a few sites and it bothers me about the use of light weight carbon arrows and mech.broadheads, 45# bows 270 grain arrows ? the so called 6 grains per pound B.S ,Wow , its happening at an alarming rate and I advocate every new bowhunter go through an extensive bowhunter ed course that entails some science about Momentum,KE,BOW EFFICIENCY,And how it relates to the bowhunter.
Tj

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Problem is, for every hunter ed instructor who teaches good info, there are 10,000 knotheads that are going to tell the newbie that's all a bunch of whooie, that speed is the end all/be all, and those ultra light arrows are the way to go.

Popular myth trumps hard facts when there isn't much brain power being applied by the masses. [&:]

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Arthur,
Yep yer right ! danm shame too ! theres a lot of great info out there that supports the Traditional Bowhunter That has a sensible approach to killing big game with the idiology that a slower heavier arrow with a sharp broadhead is much more effective than a HIGH speed light weight arrow going warp -5 with a non-cut on impact head !!! Jeesh!!! The ole mighty dollar has just about sold us out to everything "right"
Tj

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Still at it, eh TJ!!! [8D]I agree with you totally concerning equipment choices. I also would agree that what is legal is not always ethical either. However, unless for multiple shots at an animal, poaching, etc., any hunter that is legally hunting, in a manner of fair chase. I cannot, would not pass ethical judgements on. A hunters personal choice of equipment is just that personal, and his or her values and judgements are intirnsic to their characrter. I have no business judging them. Other than to wish them well.

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Steve,
Not judging my friend, Again this year as I was archery hunting and a Bowhunter stumbled on to my 400 acre lease "With out permission" I might add , I approached him and he quickly started to apologize for tresspassing and headmitted he had a wounded deer that he had been trailing all morning, since I was still hunting I didn,t get a chance to see the deer as it probably was well ahead of my path. First thing I did was view his choice of equipment, A compound no problem with me, Carbon arrows eem , I started to wonder how light they were ,and then the Mechanical broadhead preatty much gave me a case of the a$$.
Well knowing this guy needed help and he kept waiting for me to let him look for his deer I had already did my hunt and he was molesting any further chance of a deer for me soI volunteered to help him look for his deer.

We started out looking for this deer and I asked him where he hit the deer and he said ,,AS ALWAYS ,,"RIGHT IN THE BOILER ROOM", We went a ways and we found the Arrow, and the broadhead ! it was a tangled up mess ! looked like a damm bird point ! the arrow had about 3" of blood down the shaft I had figured this deer was half way across the next county by now, I told him we would set for a while. As we sat there he started studying my recurve,he asked me what # it was ,I told him 93# he said what does that equall out to a 55# compound ? I laughed, he then aked me why i was using such a small arrow 2018's , I told him that I had a 1716 sleeved inside for a 860 grain arrow, skinny ,stiff and EXTREMELY hard hitting, He stared at my Zwickeys and asked me why waste the time with those and you can use these already sharp broadheads like the ones he was using,he then went totally quiet ! And he then asked me how many deer I had ever killed with a recurve, I told him 42 andhe was in shock ! He asked me if I thought we would find this deer, I told him NOPE ! but we looked a few more HOURS and the blood didn,t last long, And we gave up. Everything this guy was using was legal ! from the 50#bowweight to the damm 12" stabalizer, to the super light arrows,and that mech.broadhead ! all legal !! but to mehis choice of gearwasn,t ethical and there was a wounded deer to prove it! We talked over a couple beers at my spike camp and I think I convinced him thet the compound was a great weapon as long as the choice of arrow weight,and broadheads were conducive for the game being hunted, again I feel a Bowhunter ED. course should be mandatory EVERY WHERE !
tJ

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

I agree with you there, TJ. 100% !!! The problem is.. we practice an art. Which is known largely to a select majority in the age group of 45 plus. I can't imagine using a broadhead I didn't hand file and sharpen myself. But.. different time, things change. I had a guy ask me one day, does that longbow have enough KE to actually kill a deer? It was not the first time, I got the usual, "you hunt with that"? Which only expresses to me how little most bowhunters today know. And they know nothing but the compound. I do however, go out on a limb in my hunter education classes, and I am very explicit about NOT to use mechnical heads. For the obvious reasons and experiences you describe. BTW... I hope the guy went out and bought a recurve!

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Tj Craig

I shoot a LOT. I shoot a 53# longbow at 28" draw, 29" carbons weighted to 525-550 grain depending on the broadheads I've used. I do everything "right" from knowing my equipment to practicing to hunting to picking my shots.

I've killed 1 buck, missed a big elk, wounded 4 deer in the past 3 years. Thats horrible success rate.

Am I morally and ethically wrong ? You'd not say so after reading the first paragraph.

A guy I know don't shoot much. He's not into practice like I am. He has a short draw, 25"and a 49# bow. He's killed a couple of does and 3 bucks in the past 2 years. I can outshoot him at anytime on the range. I take "better" shots than he does. His deer die, mine don't for whatever reason. Not as "ethical and moral' as me ? He's killing the animals though, go figure

Another guy I know shot a big elk almost walking away from him. The broadhead sliced al the way along the outside of the rib cage, went in behind the soulder and lodged in the back of the neck. NEVER entered the body cavity. Big bull, bad shot, TERRIBLE shot really ....... bull bled out after a mile of bloodtrailing.


Good shots, bad shots, ethical, moral .......... all are dependent only on the shooter himself I think at the time of the shot, and all depend on the outcome of the shot too. No one but the hunter himself can say a shot was or wasn't bad.

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

BUSTER,
Your talking "ABILITY" ! Iam talking equipment choice as it pertains to ethics, But since you opened that can up I'll go there ! if your ratio is that bad maybe you should use a rifle , jmho
Tj

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

I have just taken up the sport of traditional archery. I have a 40# Browning Wasp that is in exellent condition. I have just decided on a arrow/broadhead combo. I have decided to go with the Carbon Express Heritage 350 shaft(I like the durability of carbon)at 12 gpi with a 8.5 g nock, an 11 g insert and 11.4 g of fletching. I am going with a 125 g Simmons Landshark for a broadhead. Is this setup acceptable? I have been bow hunting for 7 years so i do know a bit, but not in the traditional field.

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

If your finished arrow weight is 400 grains or better, and you can get the Landshark razor sharp (assuming it's the 2 blade with no bleeders), be selective with your shots, make sure you have perfect arrow flight (a wobbly arrow will rob you of penetration), and of course be able to put the arrow in the spot, your set-up should be fine for whitetail and smaller game.

Chad

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Thanks LBR, My finished arrow weight will be right around 516 gr.I am not sure if this arrow eill be spined correctly for my bow though?

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

You can bare shaft, or paper tune just like you would with a compound, to check your arrow flight. Plenty of weight to get the job done. I'm not too up-to-date on carbon arrow spines, but if you see your arrow is too stiff, you can use a heavier point and/or a brass insert to up the weight and weaken the effective spine.

Chad

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

TJ - do you know who Connie Renfro is ?

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Pope chaser,
Chad is right on the money, your set up will be fine for whitetails !
Tj

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Thanks for the help guys!

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

I agree completely.

Who cares if you kill a deer with carbon, aluminum, wood, or heck, even a rock, as long as you make a quick, clean kill.

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

TJ, you seem to have anger problems. I don't think any grown man should use less than 70# bows but look at this site and all the others for traditional equipment and see where that logic would get me. I have went to the ETAR since it beginning and I feel the 90% of those I watch shoot there shouldn't be allowed in the woods with sharp sticks. See how well that will be received. Now...as for the two statements above...those are really something that should belong to me and stay with me. Like they say opinions are like A$$ holes, everybody has one and most of them stink!

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

longbowman2 I don't think you should be allowed in the woods to bowhunt either.

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Exactly BusterT! That's why if I really felt that way I shouldn't be putting in writing and posting it. I've enjoyed my time meeting hundreds of trad people at the ETAR and look forward to going and meeting more.

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

I'll tell you how well that'll be recieved. You flat pissed me off! [:@] What kind of nonsense is that? That's the kind of stupidity I expect to hear from compounders! Let me 'splain it to ya, since you obviously ain't got a clue.

Some people are newbies and/or haven't quite gotten it all together and don't intend to hunt, but are out trying to learn and improve. You trying to scare them off by being so damnably judgemental? [>:]

Some people shoot fine when they're by themselves but simply cannot shoot well with other people around. It's called performance anxiety. So they're not supposed to be out shooting and having a good time? [>:]

Some people simply don't intend to shoot beyond 10-15 yards at game but enjoy shooting 30 yards and over at targets. Are they supposed to stay home just to keep from annoying you? [>:]

Some people are getting older, eyes going bad, creaking joints and the whole works and aren't nearly as good as they used to be. But they still love getting out and shooting and hobnobbing with other traditional shooters. You think the old timers should just stay home and watch TV because their skills have declined to a point lower than you find acceptable??? [>:]

Everyone has a distance they can ethically shoot at game. It's longer for some, shorter for others. Just because you see some of the short range hunters not doing well at the longer targets does NOT give you the right to go around saying they shouldn't be allowed in the woods.

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Well said, ArthurP. I fit one or more of those categories from time to time. Like most, some days I can hit like Howard Hill, other days just okay, and bad days where I couldn't hit the ground if I tried! 3D, Field, Stumping is all time for practice and also to improve and expand one's limits. As long as the traditional bowhunter stays within his or her own effective range. No one has a right to question. The only shot that cannot be judged is the one not taken.

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

I'll jump in and add something ........ I can shoot pretty good. Hell, I should as I've shot thousands of arrows in the past few years.

I can outshoot a lot of trad guys - I can outshoot my buddy who killed 2 deer this year and 2 deer last year with his Morrison 49# Shawnee. But he went 4-4 on hits/kills, and I went 0-3 on hits/kills with my 52# Adcock.

I'm a better shot on the range, but I can't seem to kill deer. He kills deer.

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

ArthurP, you can go to my second posting on this and apologize later...LOL

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

What apology? I'm responding to exactly what you said in that particular post. I've got a zero tolerance policy to anyone who says those kinds of things, in whatever context. I've had to fight too many compounders for saying trads shouldn't be allowed in the woods to have to put up with it from someone who's supposed to be one of our own.[>:]

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

I have very little tolerance for personal attacks.

Knock it off or take a break from the form. [:@]

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

LB2,
HUH ?? Anger problems ?? what the heck are you talking about ? Iam talking about Traditional archery aren't you ?
Tj

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

hhaah...hey Tj. how have you been?....beating up and prisoners lately........i havn't seen a picture of you in a while, i bet your getting skinny!!.......

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

JB6,
lol,, SKINNY ?? lol ! not me buddy ! Iam about 290# right now I juststarted lifting for the hunting season in 2007and I just got a 95# set of limbs from WINDAUERS so Iam gettin ready to SMOKE something bad ! Them Silvertips are just that great of a bow !!! How have you been ??
Tj

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

well i've been great, i have a new little girl...all is great. well my powerlifting days are done. I have to have a pacemaker put in next month and they said no more power liftin!!1..i jsut started to get there, broke 230lb the other week. oh well.

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Just for the record, folks... Should have explained this better before but when the neck goes red the brain doesn't function properly...

The comment in question:

You know that an anti-hunter is gonna be licking his chops over a comment like that, and he's certainly NOT going to go back several days in the discussion to ferret out the context in which such comment was made. It may already have been copied, cut and pasted on an anti-hunting website with the comment "Here's what traditional bowhunters say about themselves."

Not to mention that comment is very close to the line, if not 2-3 yards on the OTHER side of the line, of breaking forum rules. Refer to forum rule #4. I have highlighted the key phrase...

Odd that, in all the years I've been participating on this site, I've never once seen this rule enforced when derogatory comments are aimed at traditional bowhunting on the bowhunting forum. Hmmm... [:-]

RE: Bow Weight,Arrow weight, and ETHICS ?
 

Hey Art--I never go there, but if you see something getting out of line there, I'd appreciate it if you would let me know.

Chad