please help understand
10-03-2005, 12:05 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2
please help understand
I feel like I'm probably going to get a lot of heat here, but before I get pummelled withrebuttals please read my entire post. I am married to an AVID hunter. He lives for it. His entire family lives for it. It'smostly deer hunting, but it's everything from elk(when he livedin Montana) tobirds. I think you get the picture. I come from a family that is entirely different than that. I'm the most outdoor oriented person among my family. However, I do not understand hunting. I've been given the reasons... population control, ect. That's not what I don't understand. To me, I could never kill anything without feeling terrible.
Please understand that I joined this whole thing to try and GET it. I'm not a judgmental person at all. I respect everyone's views and beliefs, I have never dated a hunter before and it just became a very real problem between us over the weekend (opening season). Please let me know what it is about hunting that you love so much. Not technically or why it's legal or OK, I know that, and not about thefood part of it either, I know that and I don't eat it. I would just really like some insight into a sport that I have no knowledge of. My husband just knows my views and gets very defensive when in fact I just want an understanding. Thank you in advance for anyone who helps with my query. And I apologize should I have offended anyone. That was certainly not my intention.
Please understand that I joined this whole thing to try and GET it. I'm not a judgmental person at all. I respect everyone's views and beliefs, I have never dated a hunter before and it just became a very real problem between us over the weekend (opening season). Please let me know what it is about hunting that you love so much. Not technically or why it's legal or OK, I know that, and not about thefood part of it either, I know that and I don't eat it. I would just really like some insight into a sport that I have no knowledge of. My husband just knows my views and gets very defensive when in fact I just want an understanding. Thank you in advance for anyone who helps with my query. And I apologize should I have offended anyone. That was certainly not my intention.
10-03-2005, 12:38 PM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mississippi USA
Posts: 15,296
RE: please help understand
I think you have a very good, and very legitamate question, especially considering your background. I would be that most everyone that reads this appreciates your giving us the opportunity to explain our side, instead of simply bashing the sport and going on.
Every hunter, just like everyone else, is an individual and hunts for their own reasons, but I can give mine. It's in my blood for one thing. I have a natural desire to hunt. It's not a macho thing, it's just something I really enjoy. I love to be in the woods, I love to watch nature, and I enjoy trying to out-smart the animals. I get a kick out of the startled reaction from a bird or squirrel that all but sits on me before they realize I'm not a tree or bush. I love to see the animals doing what they do when they don't realize they are being watched.
You said you didn't care to hear about the food part, but that is an intregal part of it, at least for me. I love wild game, and it cannot be purchased in a store. Wild meat has no additives or preservatives, it's very low in fat, and it plain tastes good.
I'm not there just for the kill, but the kill is part of it. If you eat meat at all, whether it be beef, pork, lamb, fish, chicken, etc., it was all alive at one time and someone killed it so it could be consumed. At least when I take my own, I know how it's been handled, I know it's clean, and I know it died humanely.
One thing you might consider--wild animals practically never die a peaceful death, especially the ones we hunt for food. Being food is their purpose for being here. Being killed quickly and cleanly by an arrow or bullet is probably the most peaceful way these animals will ever die. Preditors, disease, and starvation are not peaceful deaths. Preditors often begin feeding on an animal before it's even dead. Those afflicted with disease or starvation will often become victims to preditors before they die.
Whether you believe in God or in evolution (personally, I belive in God), man is a preditor. Our eyes are in the front of our heads. Our teeth and digestive system are made to ingest meat. We aren't cattle or sheep, and aren't built to survive on vegetation.
Sorry I'm not better at putting my feelings into words, but hopefully this will at least give you some idea.
Chad
Every hunter, just like everyone else, is an individual and hunts for their own reasons, but I can give mine. It's in my blood for one thing. I have a natural desire to hunt. It's not a macho thing, it's just something I really enjoy. I love to be in the woods, I love to watch nature, and I enjoy trying to out-smart the animals. I get a kick out of the startled reaction from a bird or squirrel that all but sits on me before they realize I'm not a tree or bush. I love to see the animals doing what they do when they don't realize they are being watched.
You said you didn't care to hear about the food part, but that is an intregal part of it, at least for me. I love wild game, and it cannot be purchased in a store. Wild meat has no additives or preservatives, it's very low in fat, and it plain tastes good.
I'm not there just for the kill, but the kill is part of it. If you eat meat at all, whether it be beef, pork, lamb, fish, chicken, etc., it was all alive at one time and someone killed it so it could be consumed. At least when I take my own, I know how it's been handled, I know it's clean, and I know it died humanely.
One thing you might consider--wild animals practically never die a peaceful death, especially the ones we hunt for food. Being food is their purpose for being here. Being killed quickly and cleanly by an arrow or bullet is probably the most peaceful way these animals will ever die. Preditors, disease, and starvation are not peaceful deaths. Preditors often begin feeding on an animal before it's even dead. Those afflicted with disease or starvation will often become victims to preditors before they die.
Whether you believe in God or in evolution (personally, I belive in God), man is a preditor. Our eyes are in the front of our heads. Our teeth and digestive system are made to ingest meat. We aren't cattle or sheep, and aren't built to survive on vegetation.
Sorry I'm not better at putting my feelings into words, but hopefully this will at least give you some idea.
Chad
10-03-2005, 12:57 PM
#3
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: please help understand
For me hunting is a part of archery. I could honestly say that if I couldn't hunt, I still would be shooting arrows no questions asked. It is a part of me.
Becoming one with the woods, nature and god is what hunting is all about for me. It's a release with no distractions at all. The "sport" that is part of hunting stems from many areas including discipline, proficiency with the weapon, knowledge of game andland, skill as a hunter, and patience. In order to be asuccessfullhunter, you must be proficient in many areas. The actual kill is only part of the hunt, not even close to the whole thing, it is the ending and a test of allof a huntersskills.If was something that was not a challenge, then I don't believe that I would be hunting.
You mentioned not talking about the meat aspects. But it is an important aspect to me. Last year, I was able to harvest two deer. One to feed my family, and one I donated to a homeless shelter.
http://www.venisondonation.com/vdc/index.tpl
I don't really do much more then hunt with a bow. So I really can't comment on any other ways of hunting. I don't enjoy shooting a gun all that much, but still do gun hunt on occasion, usually to be with friends.
10-03-2005, 01:28 PM
#4
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Inverness, MS
Posts: 3,982
RE: please help understand
Humans were created to be at the top of the food chain........ Hunting is an instinct within all humans IMO. Some simply have never had the chance to act upon those instincts and even further, many have been oppressed from acting on those instincts by their family, friends, media, etc.
10-03-2005, 02:40 PM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: please help understand
I believe in God also, and can see through science how He has used evolution as His tool for Creation. There is no conflict between science and religion, as I see it. But that's a topic for a different thread.
Hunting... It's something I grew up with. Goinghunting with my dad, uncles, cousins, grandfathers andfriends was just a natural part of my life, from my earliest memories onward. I was lucky enough to spend much of myformative yearson grampa's farm, meaning I learned early on that meat and vegetables did notmagically appear,prepackaged and sterile,on the shelves at the grocery store.
Much of my hunting was for multiple purposes. Primary reason was protecting the cattle and crops from predation by wild animals. The tasty dinners that came as a natural result of hunting was a bonus.If we didn't have to slaughter another cow for meat,then that extra cow was extra cash money at the sale yard. Keeping the coyote population under control meant we had more calves mature and the more mature calves, again, the more money we made at the livestock sale. The fewer rabbits and other critters eating the crops meant there was less crop damage, and sowe had more crops to sell.
I know I'm making it sound like the whole thing is driven by money, but there's more to it than that. Hunting with family and friends brought us all closer together. We could talk about the game we saw, the animals we took, and the ones that got away. It gave us a common frame of reference. Where we had many disagreements on a lot of other areas of life, somethat threatened to drive us apart, hunting was the one subject that was always safe ground.
Hunting is responsible for many of my fondest memories. Like grampa's old side hammer shotgun that was so worn out the barrels would come unbreached every time he shot it. We kept telling him how unsafe that old gun was, but he would never buy a new one. I inherited that gun when he died and it's one of my most cherished possessions, because of those memories.
As for hunting with bow and arrow, it's part of my ancestral legacy. When I was very young, like 2-3 years old, my grampa told me of my Indian heritage. When I was born, there was still a very real stigma for anyone with Indian blood and the whole family worked very hard to conceal it. I kinda broke the mold and was extremely proud of it. That's one reason I fell in love with shooting and hunting withbows and arrows, and that has never changed.
Go further back in time though, and weall havethe legacy of hunting. If it weren't for hunting, our species would not have developed. Our brain capacity isthe directresult of our ancestors eating a diet high in meat protien. Our eyes are set to look directly forward, as are the eyes of all mamalian predators. We are predators by design. The instinct to hunt is deeply rooted in the psyche of the species.
Our difference is we have the intellectual power tofeel compassion for our prey, something the wolves, bears, tigers and lions don't have to deal with. They don't particularly care if the animal they are eating is even dead when they begin feeding. We, on the other hand, take care to kill our prey quickly so it won't suffer. That is dueentirelyto our capacity for compassion.
That compassion is also part and parcel of whywe needto hunt.If our wild animals are not controlled through hunting, they will quickly overpopulate their habitat - habitat that is constantly shrinking due to the rapid overpopulation of humankind. When the animals overpopulate, they strip the habitat of food resources and are concentrated around whatever sources remain. So, slow starvation and death by diseaseis exactly what Nature has in store for them if they are not controlled. I'd much ratheran animal die quickly and cleanly by my handso that it won't starve or succumb to diseases, and so the resources it would have consumed will be available for other members of the herd for sustanence. I kill this animal soother animals of it's kindwon't suffer. Does that make sense?
Humans are the primary predator on this continent because the 'natural' predators have been largely eliminated. It is not feasible to reestablish the natural cycle because those predators don't care if they are taking a deer or elk vs a cow or sheep. It is not feasible to introduce birth control drugs, as some animal rights groups have espoused, because there is no way to ensure: 1) That it will work. 2) That there won't be serious environmental damage, like contaminated our ground water.
Would you want to betaking a dose ofan animal birth control hormone every time you drink a glass of water? What would it do to our children?
There are so many reasons I like to hunt. Part of it is testing my woodsmanship skills against the instinctual defenses of the animal, proving to myself I am still the son of my forefathers. Part of it is gathering around this high tech,modernversion of the camp fire, telling and listening to stories of the hunt, picking up hints on how to do better and giving advice to the newcomers. Part of it is getting back in touch with the primitive warrior that lies hidden in my core being.
Even you, jrdn00, are host to a primitive savage lying hidden deep inside you, no matter how hard you try to deny it. Intellectually, you can try to wall off that savage but you cannot escapeit.Better to seek it out, embrace it and become friends with it, because it is part of you. And you'll be able to control it better when, on those rare ocassions, it comes out of hiding.
Hunting... It's something I grew up with. Goinghunting with my dad, uncles, cousins, grandfathers andfriends was just a natural part of my life, from my earliest memories onward. I was lucky enough to spend much of myformative yearson grampa's farm, meaning I learned early on that meat and vegetables did notmagically appear,prepackaged and sterile,on the shelves at the grocery store.
Much of my hunting was for multiple purposes. Primary reason was protecting the cattle and crops from predation by wild animals. The tasty dinners that came as a natural result of hunting was a bonus.If we didn't have to slaughter another cow for meat,then that extra cow was extra cash money at the sale yard. Keeping the coyote population under control meant we had more calves mature and the more mature calves, again, the more money we made at the livestock sale. The fewer rabbits and other critters eating the crops meant there was less crop damage, and sowe had more crops to sell.
I know I'm making it sound like the whole thing is driven by money, but there's more to it than that. Hunting with family and friends brought us all closer together. We could talk about the game we saw, the animals we took, and the ones that got away. It gave us a common frame of reference. Where we had many disagreements on a lot of other areas of life, somethat threatened to drive us apart, hunting was the one subject that was always safe ground.
Hunting is responsible for many of my fondest memories. Like grampa's old side hammer shotgun that was so worn out the barrels would come unbreached every time he shot it. We kept telling him how unsafe that old gun was, but he would never buy a new one. I inherited that gun when he died and it's one of my most cherished possessions, because of those memories.
As for hunting with bow and arrow, it's part of my ancestral legacy. When I was very young, like 2-3 years old, my grampa told me of my Indian heritage. When I was born, there was still a very real stigma for anyone with Indian blood and the whole family worked very hard to conceal it. I kinda broke the mold and was extremely proud of it. That's one reason I fell in love with shooting and hunting withbows and arrows, and that has never changed.
Go further back in time though, and weall havethe legacy of hunting. If it weren't for hunting, our species would not have developed. Our brain capacity isthe directresult of our ancestors eating a diet high in meat protien. Our eyes are set to look directly forward, as are the eyes of all mamalian predators. We are predators by design. The instinct to hunt is deeply rooted in the psyche of the species.
Our difference is we have the intellectual power tofeel compassion for our prey, something the wolves, bears, tigers and lions don't have to deal with. They don't particularly care if the animal they are eating is even dead when they begin feeding. We, on the other hand, take care to kill our prey quickly so it won't suffer. That is dueentirelyto our capacity for compassion.
That compassion is also part and parcel of whywe needto hunt.If our wild animals are not controlled through hunting, they will quickly overpopulate their habitat - habitat that is constantly shrinking due to the rapid overpopulation of humankind. When the animals overpopulate, they strip the habitat of food resources and are concentrated around whatever sources remain. So, slow starvation and death by diseaseis exactly what Nature has in store for them if they are not controlled. I'd much ratheran animal die quickly and cleanly by my handso that it won't starve or succumb to diseases, and so the resources it would have consumed will be available for other members of the herd for sustanence. I kill this animal soother animals of it's kindwon't suffer. Does that make sense?
Humans are the primary predator on this continent because the 'natural' predators have been largely eliminated. It is not feasible to reestablish the natural cycle because those predators don't care if they are taking a deer or elk vs a cow or sheep. It is not feasible to introduce birth control drugs, as some animal rights groups have espoused, because there is no way to ensure: 1) That it will work. 2) That there won't be serious environmental damage, like contaminated our ground water.
Would you want to betaking a dose ofan animal birth control hormone every time you drink a glass of water? What would it do to our children?
There are so many reasons I like to hunt. Part of it is testing my woodsmanship skills against the instinctual defenses of the animal, proving to myself I am still the son of my forefathers. Part of it is gathering around this high tech,modernversion of the camp fire, telling and listening to stories of the hunt, picking up hints on how to do better and giving advice to the newcomers. Part of it is getting back in touch with the primitive warrior that lies hidden in my core being.
Even you, jrdn00, are host to a primitive savage lying hidden deep inside you, no matter how hard you try to deny it. Intellectually, you can try to wall off that savage but you cannot escapeit.Better to seek it out, embrace it and become friends with it, because it is part of you. And you'll be able to control it better when, on those rare ocassions, it comes out of hiding.
10-03-2005, 03:19 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: please help understand
It's all that darn Walt Disney's fault, I tell ya...
I don't have much to add other than "me too". These posts pretty much say it all.
I will try to find a link to a most excellent article that backs up the religious aspect of hunting and eating animals for you.
I don't have much to add other than "me too". These posts pretty much say it all.
I will try to find a link to a most excellent article that backs up the religious aspect of hunting and eating animals for you.
10-03-2005, 03:23 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: please help understand
10-03-2005, 03:25 PM
#8
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 52
RE: please help understand
Wow, this is and I'm certain will continue to be very interesting. Here's my take.
It all comes down to your statement:
"I come from a family that is entirely different than that."
That's all it is... period! There's no deep science or reasoning to it. The more technological we get,and further we get from a agricultrual/nomad/tribe culture the more people there will be who see the world like you do. You grew up in a very un-agricultral atomosphere. You've probably never been hungry. Two hundred years ago, you would have been rasing pigs, chickens, cows, etc. for one purpose, to eat. You would not have even known anything else. 3000 years ago, you would have been hunting animals to feed yourself.
You see, it's only perspective. You don't understand and probably never will because you have not done it, don't plan on every doing it, and will never be hungry enough to HAVE to do it.
I grew up three miles outside of a small town at the first gravel road heading north out of town. It was a very popular place to dump unwanted pets. Guess what, because if my upbringing and what I've been exposed to I can kill a dog, cat, etc. without flinching or really even thinking about it. You see, it was a necessity. We didn't have a pound or humane society. Don't get me wrong, I have pets and I really enjoy them. I don't go looking, but if it came down to them have a slow death of starvation or worse becoming a pack and killing livestock or wanted pets, then I have no problem "putting them down". I've told you this as a shock factor. Some would nod in understanding, others might tear up hearing that there are some calus SOBs out there that could do something like that.
Hunting is mearly perspective. I don't think you can understand by just listening to someone tell why they hunt. Your mind set is totally different. You would have to be forced into a whole new lifestyle and situations that would basically force you understand and accept it.
I get your point, and appreciate you WANT to understand. Is it really possible? I'm very doubtful.
Personally I grew upoutside. Home was just a place to sleep. Other than that I was outside. I've hunted and eaten more small game that you could probably imagine. I love it. It's a thrill, I would rather have wild game over processed store stuff.
One more point I'd like to address. Cultures in history and the few out there we can still observe all point to the male as the provider. I belive God hardwired man for this. I'm not saying women don't like to hunt. And I'm not trying to imply anything. However, men are (generally) stronger and faster, and wired more toward hunting. If someone takes male hormone, what happens? More agressive, stronger, etc.
You seem to have all the"political" arugments listed, and have a grasp. You stated you wanted to understand the base urge.
"Please let me know what it is about hunting that you love so much. Not technically or why it's legal or OK, I know that, and not about thefood part of it either, I know that and I don't eat it. I would just really like some insight into a sport that I have no knowledge of."
To sum up: you were raised in a totally different setting than your husband. You probably won't ever really grasp it. Just keep an open mind (as you seem to be doing quite well). This is a really hard answer to explain, and you trying to explain why you don't understand is just confusing to those who grew up with it.
"I would just really like some insight into a sport that I have no knowledge of."
Last thing I have is this. I have a hard time with the "sport" part of it too. Sporting maybe, but it's not usually a contest, but a personal venture. I don't like what some are trying to make it, but I guess this is a whole new issue.
C-
It all comes down to your statement:
"I come from a family that is entirely different than that."
That's all it is... period! There's no deep science or reasoning to it. The more technological we get,and further we get from a agricultrual/nomad/tribe culture the more people there will be who see the world like you do. You grew up in a very un-agricultral atomosphere. You've probably never been hungry. Two hundred years ago, you would have been rasing pigs, chickens, cows, etc. for one purpose, to eat. You would not have even known anything else. 3000 years ago, you would have been hunting animals to feed yourself.
You see, it's only perspective. You don't understand and probably never will because you have not done it, don't plan on every doing it, and will never be hungry enough to HAVE to do it.
I grew up three miles outside of a small town at the first gravel road heading north out of town. It was a very popular place to dump unwanted pets. Guess what, because if my upbringing and what I've been exposed to I can kill a dog, cat, etc. without flinching or really even thinking about it. You see, it was a necessity. We didn't have a pound or humane society. Don't get me wrong, I have pets and I really enjoy them. I don't go looking, but if it came down to them have a slow death of starvation or worse becoming a pack and killing livestock or wanted pets, then I have no problem "putting them down". I've told you this as a shock factor. Some would nod in understanding, others might tear up hearing that there are some calus SOBs out there that could do something like that.
Hunting is mearly perspective. I don't think you can understand by just listening to someone tell why they hunt. Your mind set is totally different. You would have to be forced into a whole new lifestyle and situations that would basically force you understand and accept it.
I get your point, and appreciate you WANT to understand. Is it really possible? I'm very doubtful.
Personally I grew upoutside. Home was just a place to sleep. Other than that I was outside. I've hunted and eaten more small game that you could probably imagine. I love it. It's a thrill, I would rather have wild game over processed store stuff.
One more point I'd like to address. Cultures in history and the few out there we can still observe all point to the male as the provider. I belive God hardwired man for this. I'm not saying women don't like to hunt. And I'm not trying to imply anything. However, men are (generally) stronger and faster, and wired more toward hunting. If someone takes male hormone, what happens? More agressive, stronger, etc.
You seem to have all the"political" arugments listed, and have a grasp. You stated you wanted to understand the base urge.
"Please let me know what it is about hunting that you love so much. Not technically or why it's legal or OK, I know that, and not about thefood part of it either, I know that and I don't eat it. I would just really like some insight into a sport that I have no knowledge of."
To sum up: you were raised in a totally different setting than your husband. You probably won't ever really grasp it. Just keep an open mind (as you seem to be doing quite well). This is a really hard answer to explain, and you trying to explain why you don't understand is just confusing to those who grew up with it.
"I would just really like some insight into a sport that I have no knowledge of."
Last thing I have is this. I have a hard time with the "sport" part of it too. Sporting maybe, but it's not usually a contest, but a personal venture. I don't like what some are trying to make it, but I guess this is a whole new issue.
C-
10-03-2005, 06:35 PM
#9
Typical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Troutdale Oregon
Posts: 569
RE: please help understand
You not going to like this!!! But if you got in a fight over him going hunting on opening day, do both of you a favor get divorced before you have kids, trust me. Wait till he takes your son out of school to hunt and your boy thinks dad's the greatest. You'll both be happier in the long run. I know from experiance. Married to a woman just like you for 14 years and I think our marrige is about over due to hunting. She has grown to resent hunting and me. Just leave him for a tree hugger. it'll be better in the long run!!!
10-03-2005, 07:27 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,424
RE: please help understand
Thanks for giving us a chance to explain.
I grew up in it. I love to hunt and always have. This is what hunting is to me:
I am a part of nature. To be a part of nature, when you have to work for what you bring home says it all to me.
It's not easy to get out there and try to harvest a beautiful animal that is among the most intelligent on the planet. Hunting is all about being part of God's creation.
I love sitting in the woods. It's not about killing. That's what you really have to focus on. Killing is only part of the hunt.
Sitting in the woods and enjoying god's creation is what it's all about. Being part of what god created for us is such an important thing. It is a real challenge to bring down a whitetail or any animal for that matter. I love trying outsmart an animal that is smarter than some humans on this planet. Thanks for the post though.
I grew up in it. I love to hunt and always have. This is what hunting is to me:
I am a part of nature. To be a part of nature, when you have to work for what you bring home says it all to me.
It's not easy to get out there and try to harvest a beautiful animal that is among the most intelligent on the planet. Hunting is all about being part of God's creation.
I love sitting in the woods. It's not about killing. That's what you really have to focus on. Killing is only part of the hunt.
Sitting in the woods and enjoying god's creation is what it's all about. Being part of what god created for us is such an important thing. It is a real challenge to bring down a whitetail or any animal for that matter. I love trying outsmart an animal that is smarter than some humans on this planet. Thanks for the post though.