What about bow reports?
03-01-2002 | 07:42 AM
#11
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 970
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From: .. NH USA
RE: What about bow reports?
Thanks for the clarification, Jeff! I assumed so, but wanted to make certain everyone understood the facts on Emery's knowledge, experience, and expertise in his field. Good shooting! Pinwheel 12
03-01-2002 | 09:17 PM
#12
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
From: Central Illinois USA
RE: What about bow reports?
Ossage or others,
this is kind of off the topic but can you tell me if the bow report comparing the Q2 and the Q2XL that Norb Mullaney wrote is available on line somewhere.
I have subscribed to Bowhunting World for several years. I am interested in reading the review for the XL and Norbs comparisons. I read the report last year and loaned it to a buddy who can't find it now. Thanks for your help!
this is kind of off the topic but can you tell me if the bow report comparing the Q2 and the Q2XL that Norb Mullaney wrote is available on line somewhere.
I have subscribed to Bowhunting World for several years. I am interested in reading the review for the XL and Norbs comparisons. I read the report last year and loaned it to a buddy who can't find it now. Thanks for your help!
03-02-2002 | 07:10 AM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,978
Likes: 0
From: Vinton VA
RE: What about bow reports?
Pinwheel, I think I have to disagree with you comments about starting a trend in the bow "reports". Their are several names on the boards that catch my attention whenever I see a post by them, Yours is one, that I make a point to read. I realy like these, non-technical reports, mostly becuase as much as I love reading Norbs reports, they do get a little boring. The fact is I want the best combination of features I can find in a bow. Norbs reports are valuble in this manner, but he still has to be careful about what he says. The "reports" here have to be taken with a grain of salt as well, but I honestly find more usefull info here than anywhere else. We can all read the spec sheets on a bow, but it is nice to get peoples honest opinions . I think as long as you take a look at who is doing the posting, their reputation on the board, their level of exsperience, etc, much real world useful information can be had. we just have to keep in mind the above factors, and the " I bought this bow, so now I will learn to like it" factor that all of us have had at one time or another went through. The fact of the matter is those who are most qualified to do a technical report, and post here, realy cannot do so becuase they make their living selling bows and servicing customers.
As much as I love the equipment aspect of archery, I am still a bowhunter first and formost, so when push comes to shove, all the technical stuff realy means nothing to me if I can't shoot my bow of choice, and I realy think that most people on here are in the same boat. I realy enjoy all of the "bow reports" posted here, I just read each one, consider the poster, and take it all in with a grain of salt.
TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS
As much as I love the equipment aspect of archery, I am still a bowhunter first and formost, so when push comes to shove, all the technical stuff realy means nothing to me if I can't shoot my bow of choice, and I realy think that most people on here are in the same boat. I realy enjoy all of the "bow reports" posted here, I just read each one, consider the poster, and take it all in with a grain of salt.
TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS
03-02-2002 | 09:23 AM
#14
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 970
Likes: 0
From: .. NH USA
RE: What about bow reports?
5shot-
I agree with some of your thinking and find no issue with any of the reports that have been made SO FAR, but realistically, if we are giving away only our opinions, it cannot be construed as a "Technical report". People (especially newbies) can easily misinterpret these "opinions" for a true "report", as done by someone who has high-technical experience in this field. You are correct, there are some here that do have the knowledge and non-biasm to do such informative reports, but when everyone sees them and feels they too can do this, then jump on board doing the same thing, it becomes a free-for-all with little more than opinionated posts which essentially do what we normally do anyway in our discussions and posts on various topics, but at the same time confuses some by misinterpretation. This IMO raises heck with the "real" technical reports that are written by those experienced in this field,(whether sometimes boring or not <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) and new or uneducated archers end up not knowing who or what to believe, simply because there are so-called "reports" now scattered everywhere with a million opinions in them, and little else. I'm all for discussing bows and equipment and opinions of, but not under the premise that it is a "full report", or that the author has great knowledge of the technical aspects of this particular piece of equipment, when it basically boils down to stating simple specs and a generalized opinion of the product. As stated before, wasn't that what we were doing here on the boards before these "reports" started anyway, without all of the hoopla?
And yes, it will spread. It already has, we first had one, then two, now three and four posting "reports".IMO it will further progress, confusing new archers and those not familiar with each individual that is reporting. What's going to happen when we soon get "conflicting reports"? More confusion. As you stated, you look at the author, (as do I) but what about those that do not know who is who, what "reports" to read with non-biasm, and what to take as pertinent, truthful info, and what not? This is the dillemma we face, regardless of whether a person is a bowhunter looking for good, non-biased opinions or a target archer looking for technical info. And with more coming onboard with such "reports", it will grow ever-more confusing in the future, IMHO.
After much thought on this subject I'll personally be keeping info and opinions contained to posts with questions regarding certain products, and in this way misinterpretation of products and true technical reports, biasm, and occasional mis-information can be kept to a minimum. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
I agree with some of your thinking and find no issue with any of the reports that have been made SO FAR, but realistically, if we are giving away only our opinions, it cannot be construed as a "Technical report". People (especially newbies) can easily misinterpret these "opinions" for a true "report", as done by someone who has high-technical experience in this field. You are correct, there are some here that do have the knowledge and non-biasm to do such informative reports, but when everyone sees them and feels they too can do this, then jump on board doing the same thing, it becomes a free-for-all with little more than opinionated posts which essentially do what we normally do anyway in our discussions and posts on various topics, but at the same time confuses some by misinterpretation. This IMO raises heck with the "real" technical reports that are written by those experienced in this field,(whether sometimes boring or not <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) and new or uneducated archers end up not knowing who or what to believe, simply because there are so-called "reports" now scattered everywhere with a million opinions in them, and little else. I'm all for discussing bows and equipment and opinions of, but not under the premise that it is a "full report", or that the author has great knowledge of the technical aspects of this particular piece of equipment, when it basically boils down to stating simple specs and a generalized opinion of the product. As stated before, wasn't that what we were doing here on the boards before these "reports" started anyway, without all of the hoopla?
And yes, it will spread. It already has, we first had one, then two, now three and four posting "reports".IMO it will further progress, confusing new archers and those not familiar with each individual that is reporting. What's going to happen when we soon get "conflicting reports"? More confusion. As you stated, you look at the author, (as do I) but what about those that do not know who is who, what "reports" to read with non-biasm, and what to take as pertinent, truthful info, and what not? This is the dillemma we face, regardless of whether a person is a bowhunter looking for good, non-biased opinions or a target archer looking for technical info. And with more coming onboard with such "reports", it will grow ever-more confusing in the future, IMHO.
After much thought on this subject I'll personally be keeping info and opinions contained to posts with questions regarding certain products, and in this way misinterpretation of products and true technical reports, biasm, and occasional mis-information can be kept to a minimum. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
03-03-2002 | 07:50 AM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,978
Likes: 0
From: Vinton VA
RE: What about bow reports?
Pinwheel, You do bring up a good point about the new reader, those who don't realy know the ins and out's of the board. I never realy considerd that aspect. All and All I like the "reports", and hope they continue, but I too don't want to see everybody and their brother "jump in", but I do like to read others impressions on the new models coming out. To be honest what I would like to see is someone here get together with huntingnet, and work out somthing like norb does for bow and arrow. Maybe have a way to vote for what bow should be tested next month, that way the board would have more imput on what is tested. I don't know how it would be done, but I know it would increase the traffic here once the "word" got out.
TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS
TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS
03-03-2002 | 09:55 AM
#17
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,413
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From:
RE: What about bow reports?
Sounds like symantics are getting in the way. Every "report" should not be percieved as a "Technical Report". A report is a written account, giving information on something. The report could be opinion, fact, an accounting or a combination of any of these. I think it's easy enought for a reader to determine what portions are opinion and which parts appear to be presented as facts. As far as the facts go, anyone can get these wrong, and opinions are like... well we know everyone has one. If someone is perceiving these opinions as having some sort of "technical" validity, then I think they are reading into it, more than what was intended. A beginner or a person new to this forum, should realize there is no guaranteed expertise that should be attached to anything written in an open public forum.
By the way, these reports are "true reports", for I'm sure the opinions are truthful. I like them and would encourage all to continue to report on their opinions of the equipment they use. I've always valued the opinions of users who aren't making money off of the sale of what they're talking about. On the other hand, I realize it's natural for people to justify a purchase they just made. No one wants to think they made a poor decision, so it's natural to defend and promote the product they've layed down their hard earned money for. This is why when it comes to purchasing a product, we should all test a range of products and then buy what we like.
Keep those reports a com'n.
By the way, these reports are "true reports", for I'm sure the opinions are truthful. I like them and would encourage all to continue to report on their opinions of the equipment they use. I've always valued the opinions of users who aren't making money off of the sale of what they're talking about. On the other hand, I realize it's natural for people to justify a purchase they just made. No one wants to think they made a poor decision, so it's natural to defend and promote the product they've layed down their hard earned money for. This is why when it comes to purchasing a product, we should all test a range of products and then buy what we like.
Keep those reports a com'n.
03-03-2002 | 10:11 AM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,058
Likes: 0
From: CT, USA
RE: What about bow reports?
I've been watching this thread with interest..
As long as ANY person has an opinion, there will ALWAYS be some bias in a report...
It doesn't matter if it's Norb, or Loiselle, or Strangis, or Winke, myself, Frank, Matt, Len, PW, 5Shot, etc...
There is NO way to be impartial, unless you are a complete novice, have never heard a thing about the subject, and have no point of reference WHATSOEVER..I.E. someone hands you a bow, tells you how to pull it back and they shoot it..
People like Norb can do all the measuring they want. There is STILL opinion in the report. e.g. In his report on the Martin Fury years back he said that he felt the bow was quiet w/ very heavy arrows. Seems to me that's an opinion. What about saying that a bow is tougher to draw? That's an opinion too, I might find the bow to be a piece of cake to draw. His whole last section of each review ("general commentary"
is largely opinion.
As long as human beings are writing the reports there is no way you will ever get rid of any opinion or bias.
Then there is the bias due to making a living. I'm not picking on PW here: I'm using him as an example..hope ya don't mind PW <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
PW sells bows for a living, inlcuding BT and Merlin. It's no secret he loves those limey bows <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> It's also no secret that he's had a problem w/ some of Bowtech's company policies. There was thread describing his feelings on the matter several months back. Conciously or subconciously that bias will come into play..it's human nature, and it doesn't make PW a "bad" person. As we have witnessed many times here, PW is quite the professional,and he does a VERY good job of minimizing any bias he might have, but it's still there..it is with ALL of us.
I have a bias against certain brands..due to my experience as a dealer/shooter..HCA or Golden Eagle for example,and my bias comes out..but I don't go giving my opinion unless the subject comes up (like the "what will it take" thread). I could never ever give an unbiased report again about a HCA or Golden Eagle bow...
It boils down to this: Can ANYONE give an honest unbiased opinion about anything? Only in the rarest of cases.
My reports are part factual, and lot's of personal findings/opinion..I've never said otherwise. They are purely to relate my experiences & for entertainment. I will be selling "oxy-clean" and "spacebags" soon If I keep on the path I am currently on <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I don't give my reports to sell a bunch of crap or to keep my sponsors happy. I'm not affiliated with anyone in the Archery Industry anymore, and I don't run a shop. I like to write bow reports. I try to write them w/ sincerity, and I try to be thorough. I might actually be helping someone, or maybe for the next guy it's a load of crap because we are all different. I have no agenda.
If people are not wise enough in this day and age to judge things based on their own wants/needs/likes/dislikes, then they have issues that need to be addressed by a mental health professional.
Being that Frank is a moderator here, I can understand his reports being an issue if some laywer type wished to take it up. Since he is a representative of this site, then the moderators need to have some sort of guidelines provided to avoid any hassles.
Enjoy the reviews for what they are and make up your own minds!
EDIT: Typo-HE!!
JeffB
Edited by - JeffB on 03/03/2002 11:19:37
As long as ANY person has an opinion, there will ALWAYS be some bias in a report...
It doesn't matter if it's Norb, or Loiselle, or Strangis, or Winke, myself, Frank, Matt, Len, PW, 5Shot, etc...
There is NO way to be impartial, unless you are a complete novice, have never heard a thing about the subject, and have no point of reference WHATSOEVER..I.E. someone hands you a bow, tells you how to pull it back and they shoot it..
People like Norb can do all the measuring they want. There is STILL opinion in the report. e.g. In his report on the Martin Fury years back he said that he felt the bow was quiet w/ very heavy arrows. Seems to me that's an opinion. What about saying that a bow is tougher to draw? That's an opinion too, I might find the bow to be a piece of cake to draw. His whole last section of each review ("general commentary"
is largely opinion. As long as human beings are writing the reports there is no way you will ever get rid of any opinion or bias.
Then there is the bias due to making a living. I'm not picking on PW here: I'm using him as an example..hope ya don't mind PW <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
PW sells bows for a living, inlcuding BT and Merlin. It's no secret he loves those limey bows <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> It's also no secret that he's had a problem w/ some of Bowtech's company policies. There was thread describing his feelings on the matter several months back. Conciously or subconciously that bias will come into play..it's human nature, and it doesn't make PW a "bad" person. As we have witnessed many times here, PW is quite the professional,and he does a VERY good job of minimizing any bias he might have, but it's still there..it is with ALL of us.
I have a bias against certain brands..due to my experience as a dealer/shooter..HCA or Golden Eagle for example,and my bias comes out..but I don't go giving my opinion unless the subject comes up (like the "what will it take" thread). I could never ever give an unbiased report again about a HCA or Golden Eagle bow...
It boils down to this: Can ANYONE give an honest unbiased opinion about anything? Only in the rarest of cases.
My reports are part factual, and lot's of personal findings/opinion..I've never said otherwise. They are purely to relate my experiences & for entertainment. I will be selling "oxy-clean" and "spacebags" soon If I keep on the path I am currently on <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I don't give my reports to sell a bunch of crap or to keep my sponsors happy. I'm not affiliated with anyone in the Archery Industry anymore, and I don't run a shop. I like to write bow reports. I try to write them w/ sincerity, and I try to be thorough. I might actually be helping someone, or maybe for the next guy it's a load of crap because we are all different. I have no agenda.
If people are not wise enough in this day and age to judge things based on their own wants/needs/likes/dislikes, then they have issues that need to be addressed by a mental health professional.
Being that Frank is a moderator here, I can understand his reports being an issue if some laywer type wished to take it up. Since he is a representative of this site, then the moderators need to have some sort of guidelines provided to avoid any hassles.
Enjoy the reviews for what they are and make up your own minds!
EDIT: Typo-HE!!
JeffB
Edited by - JeffB on 03/03/2002 11:19:37
03-03-2002 | 12:02 PM
#19
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 970
Likes: 0
From: .. NH USA
RE: What about bow reports?
Jeff-
I do not mind you using me for an example, however I don't feel that my bias comes simply due to the fact that I sell bows for a living. I sell many brands other than just BT and Merlin, and altho yes, I am partial to those "limey bows",<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> it is not without good reason, and it has nothing to do with profit, I can make my living off of any bow on the market if I so choose, so therefore I am probably less-biased than most in this respect. Yes, I had my differences with BT awhile ago, but if those differences were ones that could not have been worked out, they would no longer be part of my sales platform, bottom line. Profit has nothing to do with any of the opinions expressed here by myself, other factors such as quality materials, quality design, quality customer service, fit, feel, ease of draw, recoil and shock, accuracy, and attention to the "little things" are what creates my biasm. And yes, we all have it, I agree 100%.
So what do we do? Each jump on board with these "reports", only to have biasm affect the overall summation of each report in the end?(this would not be confusing, especially to a newbie?) Or, do we simply discuss highlights and problems within the messageboard system as we've always done, and leave the "reports" to those that do it for a living and have had many years experience in dealing with the biasm, and in this way eliminate any confusion from new archers as to who or what to believe? I firmly feel open discussion is warranted and that it makes for not only interesting but truthful (and sometimes heated! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) debates, but we do not need complete "reports" from everyone over the discussion of a product, IMO. You yourself have done a great job in your test reports, and as stated before I commend you on this.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> However as also stated, the "I wanna do that too" phase settles in, and then it becomes the free for all with everyone eventually becoming an "expert" with various "reports" and no means to an end. Do I think I could do these reports? Absolutely. Do I need to? No. Everyone gets the answers they need here anyway.
Therefore as stated, for myself, I'll merely try to keep it within posts and questions concerning individual products, and in this way do my part to allow some sense of direction for the newbies to go when looking for a "true technical report". Which I think the above mentioned Professionals currently handle very well. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
I do not mind you using me for an example, however I don't feel that my bias comes simply due to the fact that I sell bows for a living. I sell many brands other than just BT and Merlin, and altho yes, I am partial to those "limey bows",<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> it is not without good reason, and it has nothing to do with profit, I can make my living off of any bow on the market if I so choose, so therefore I am probably less-biased than most in this respect. Yes, I had my differences with BT awhile ago, but if those differences were ones that could not have been worked out, they would no longer be part of my sales platform, bottom line. Profit has nothing to do with any of the opinions expressed here by myself, other factors such as quality materials, quality design, quality customer service, fit, feel, ease of draw, recoil and shock, accuracy, and attention to the "little things" are what creates my biasm. And yes, we all have it, I agree 100%.
So what do we do? Each jump on board with these "reports", only to have biasm affect the overall summation of each report in the end?(this would not be confusing, especially to a newbie?) Or, do we simply discuss highlights and problems within the messageboard system as we've always done, and leave the "reports" to those that do it for a living and have had many years experience in dealing with the biasm, and in this way eliminate any confusion from new archers as to who or what to believe? I firmly feel open discussion is warranted and that it makes for not only interesting but truthful (and sometimes heated! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) debates, but we do not need complete "reports" from everyone over the discussion of a product, IMO. You yourself have done a great job in your test reports, and as stated before I commend you on this.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> However as also stated, the "I wanna do that too" phase settles in, and then it becomes the free for all with everyone eventually becoming an "expert" with various "reports" and no means to an end. Do I think I could do these reports? Absolutely. Do I need to? No. Everyone gets the answers they need here anyway.
Therefore as stated, for myself, I'll merely try to keep it within posts and questions concerning individual products, and in this way do my part to allow some sense of direction for the newbies to go when looking for a "true technical report". Which I think the above mentioned Professionals currently handle very well. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
03-03-2002 | 12:23 PM
#20
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,413
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From:
RE: What about bow reports?
I would hate to see this forum limited to comments only from "experts", when concerning equipment. In fact, there is a lot to said for the opinion of an inexperienced user. Those of us, who are in the same shoes, appreciate their views. Ours are likely to be similar.
If someone gives their opinions on a bow, I don't see why their likes and dislikes should be any less important than the likes or dislikes of the "experts".
I like reading about the opinions of all types of users. I would hope that everyone would feel comfortable about giving their opinions of equipment, on this forum.
If someone gives their opinions on a bow, I don't see why their likes and dislikes should be any less important than the likes or dislikes of the "experts".
I like reading about the opinions of all types of users. I would hope that everyone would feel comfortable about giving their opinions of equipment, on this forum.