p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Well, after getting most of my problems with my Dually taken care of, I've been getting in some range time.

And run into something weird that I'm having trouble figuring out.

I had the bow sighted in, and I could keep decent groups (for being early season practice).

Then, boom, arrow hits 1' high.

I thought I just flinched or someting so I shot some more. Back on original grouping....

Few more arrows, another one jumps up high (tight with the first "flier").

So, I check over equipment...
Front sight hasn't moved.
Rear peep...has a little play and may move a little...but when I moved it by hand to test effect, it's not enough to make the arrow jump.
Rest appears to be working fine, as is my Fletch Hunter release.

I packed it in for a day and went home to think. I then began to wonder if while I think I'm anchoring in the same spot all the time, maybe I'm moving slightly. Second thought...and the one that I thought was really doing this...was that if I keep my face perp to the ground on some shots, and then on others lean a little bit with my eye closer to the peep..this could produce a difference in impact.

Next time at the range, I tested my theory. Unfortunately, when I tried moving my head about to change angle on the peep...it didn't have the significant effect I thought it did. I shot some more rounds trying to keep my anchor and head position the same...and I still got some fliers.

I also noticed, that while I think I'm always anchoring and positioning the same, some times when I look forward, I can see much more of the top of the hood of my sight (it's an HHA sight, non moveable). If you need a picture...hold a pop can out in front of you with the top facing away from you.. I'm going from pretty much seeing only the bottom of the can to seeing the bottom, plus the top side of the can.

My next time out, I'm going to eyeball if possibly my nocking point-loop is moving (which I doubt) or if I can figure out how I can be repeating my anchor and head position, but the look of the sight is changing....

grrr. I wouldn't be worrying about this...but I don't want these fliers while hunting obviously.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Most Likely

1) Cam synch. You are creeping or overdrawing on occasion and getting that flyer. It only has to be off a tiny bit. That is why many folks "creep tune" thier dual cam bows..it prevents this phenomenon.

or


2) You've got a bad arrow or two. Number them and keep track

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Number the arrows, see if its always the same ones giving fliers, if so, check nock alignment, then head the insert and spin it.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Sure you have clearance. I had this problem with a TM Hunter, and my right helical was too strong. Sometimes, catch the arrow

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

My thoughts as I was reading were exactly the same as jeffb's.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

A rest that's hanging up will do the same thing. Might try taking your rest apart and giving it a good cleanup and lube job.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Not really - with a peep you could be 2 inches from it or 10 and it wont throw your shot off - but maybe a little bit.

I vote bad arrow or creep......and that bows gots somes creeps:D

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Duh... Maybe, perhaps, I should read the WHOLE post. [&:] Missed the bit about how the bow is torquing in the vertical axis. Check cam timing and synch for sure, but don't forget to check tiller as well!

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

IMO you have a clearance problem. But you should check all things mentioned here.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

number your arrows I had some flyers and found I had a 2 bad arrows good luck

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

I was getting the exact same thing, I would definately "creep tune" and possibly shorten your drawlenght slightly, maybe 1/4 " or so by adding a little twist. The creep tuning alone should take care of the problem but you should also address the reason that your coming off the wall which is probably a draw lenght that is slightly too long.
Good Luck
BD

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

nock pinch[X(]

Nothing definitive yet
 

Well, took the bow out this weekend to see if I can tell what's up.

Forgot my Sharpie for marking arrows...so I just winged it by separating any error that flew high.

Attempted to check creep tune. Held draw as hard against wall as I could and didn't get a lot of movement. I had a couple that shot slightly low of the normal point of impact...but I can't determine whether it was actually a matter for "creep tuning" or if I just was working so hard at pulling against the wall that I jiggled my aim.

As I progressed, I seemed to find two arrows that could fly high. They didn't always do it.

I tried spinning them slightly to avoid my HHA drop-away rest (but so you know, I really don't think I've got fletch contact anywhere). When spun, sometimes the jump would go away...but again, I'm not sure I jiggled the aim.

I didn't seem to notice this time so much of the front sight deal where I could see the top of the sight. It's always there...and the view never seemed to change much...so that might have been a red herring.

On draw, I'm not noticing a double bump from an extremely out of tune bow. I can barely perceive that I seem to "feel" the top cam giving a firm stop when I come to full draw...something I don't think I feel from the bottom. Not sure if this is out of time or not. Cams appear to be in sync when at rest.

At this point, I think I'll refletch the fliers with some arrows that have their vanes gone, and then retest. (and number the darn things). If the problem goes with the arrows...I'll just watch it. But if it spreads to other arrows, I'll head back to the shop again to talk to them about it.

RE: Nothing definitive yet
 

Before you refletch , chech your nocks , as in change them out , That may be your problem .

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

just so I know...why would changing non-broken nocks make a difference?

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Carphunter when creep tuning you dont want to pull real hard against the wall as this will affect your impact point as well, you just want to make sure your on the wall. After shooting a few shots on the wall shoot a few more after creeping about a 1/4" forward and I will almost guarantee with you current setup that you will shoot a second group above the arrows shot off the wall. As I said earlier I just went through this with my Bowtech Dually and can almost assure you this is whats happening. If you go to the Spot-hogg website you will find excellent articles on creep tuning, but on your bow while at rest your top cam has to definately be ahead of your bottom cam this can be done by first setting the cams identicle while at rest using the cutouts or some other reference to adjust them and then repressing the bow and adding a approx 2 or 3 twist to the cable that connects to the bottom cam. After doing this you must resight the bow as the arrows will now impact higher than the wall shot but lower than the creep shot used to, you should now have all shots both creep and wall impacting together. But remember you do not pull hard against the wall just shoot firmly off it. After you get this done you will be amazed at how forgiving the bow shoots.
Good luck
BD

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Carp , if you would have had a sharpie it would have helped as the same arrow with a bad nock would repeatedly shoot bad . Nocks dont have to be broken to be bad , they wear out , sometime fast , even the fletching glue we use can weak'n them . If I have an arrow that flys bad and its straight , and the fletchings look good , Ill change the nock and that usealy brings it right in a group with my arrows that are flying good . Nocks are my petpeeve as they are something we tend to forget about , but they wear out and replaceing them can have drastic effects for the good . Too tight a nock fit is another problem unto itself .

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

what type of nocks do I need to find for axis arrows? Do either fsdiscount or mountain-archery carry them?

Not the Nock, fletch, contact, creep... all shooter
 

Took the bow out again to try and figure things out.

Grouping arrows 8" to 1' high... only a few odd balls low (on poa).

Called a bud, joined him at another range.

He had me make sure I was only holding bow with the v between the thumb and fore finger. When I did that, I could semi-consistently keep the arrows where they belonged.

But, there's a problem, it became obvious that to hold the bow like that and be able to bring the string back to my face to anchor, I really need more draw length. when I pull the string to anchor (anchor is nock about to my lips, nose to string), I'm fighting myself to stay there (I'm pulling against the axis of my arm as if I were trying to compress it). This makes it hard to keep my hand properly positioned.

So, I'm gonna do a ton of drawing practice to see if I can just beef up enough to get by. In reality, I need another inch or so of string travel...but I'm maxed out on my '03 dually (unless Bowtech 04 cams will fit on it...which I doubt). I don't really want to take a $200-$300 hit right now to sell this bow off and pick up an 04 to get another 1" to 1"2 in length.


blah

Today's outing
 

Well, went at it again.

trying to keep my wrist locked...palm down, bow only in v. man....that smarts.

still wasn't consistent. ( I should say, when I start fresh...I get two groups...one where I think I'm aiming, one about 8" high.
Not sure if wrist is unlocking, or if the bow is just that sensitive to any slight misplacement or alignment.

also tried holding it more comfortably (to see if I can shoot "wrong"). I'm not really pistol gripping it, I just am allowing the inside pad below my thumb to contact the grip. Still couldn't get a consistent group.

I was thinking maybe a broader grip on the bow...but from what I can tell, you'd pretty much have to destroy the original grip to get it off. And I don't know what's available for replacements and if they'd help at all.....

again...blah.

btw...this is getting aggravating. I've been bow hunting and bow fishing for years. I've never had this much trouble getting in tune with a bow...

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

I do intend to hit my dealer today for some observation. (I've been delaying that because I kinda wanted to be sure I had a clear idea in my own mind as to what's happening).

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

I had the same thing with my Pro 40 Wheely. It shot almost a foot high at 30 yards if I creeped. The adjustment can be very small to get you where you should be, but it can be done. I got the wheels (cams) to the positions I needed to eliminate the problem, and also twisted the string up a little to get the draw length a bit shorter. Again, the adjustment will be small. As little as a 1/2 twist might make the difference you need.;)

I would not mess around with a high wrist grip unless you want a whole new set of problems. Go back to your original grip unless it is causing torque. That would also eliminate the problem of the draw length being too short for you.;)

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

After another conversation with bud, he said go back to original grip...just don't wrap fingers around the grip. He said I should get a sling if it feels "weird"...like I might drop bow (even though I wouldn't). He then said to examine my anchor and get it consistent. Kisser button if necessary..but just be darn certain it's the same everytime. I can see this being an issue since right now, my anchor includes the barrel of the release resting against the corner of my mouth..but I'm not certain that I'm always at the same point on the barrel. So, I'm going to make my anchor be nose touching string, and put a "bump" on the barrel of the release to act as a kisser. If that doesn't work..I'll figure out if I can put a kisser on the string.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Well, shot again Sunday to check my form...still two groups.

Took the bow to dealer today.

He pulled it back twice after I said it might need creep tuning. He said no... it's out of sync. So, after 10 minutes in and out of a press, I took it back to the practice range.

Aside from POI dropping 2" from where it had been, every arrow went right where I pointed. Didn't matter if hand was open, closed, or had a murderous grip on bow. It was nice to know every arrow was going to go where I pointed it.

This was the second time I've had it tuned, with probably less than 250 arrows fired so far.

Dealer said that cable stretching should be over for a while. But I could mark the cams to watch for it going out again.

The reason the bow worked for my bud and not for me is that I fire from the wall, he fired from not quite the wall (for those of you who don't have duallies, the valley is pretty tiny - to non existant on these bows).

Anyways, moral of the story....listen to the people here...if it ain't right...don't muck around...go see your darn dealer (now, must go beat that into my head for a while).

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

I have the same issue on my Mohave every once in a while. I have to keep an eye on the cam locations. I would get bullet holes when paper tuning, and every 3rd arrow, I would get a vertical tear. Thanks for letting us know the issue.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Carphunter thats what I was telling you all along CREEP TUNING is adjusting the cam timing so that all arrows wether shot of the wall or while creeping impact at the same spot.
Good Luck
BD

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

I had though from what I was reading that creep tuning was adjusting a bow that was in good sync, to what might be called slightly out of sync to handle the problem of creep shooting.

But like I said, main point is go see the dealer.

My bow's name is now Bane
 

60 or so arrows after last tuning...out of tune again.

I'm not happy.

I'll see the dealer tomorrow.

This time I noticed one of the cable silencers had crept up and was interfering with spin of the cam...don't know how it got that high...but damn...this is getting annoying.

I'm going to start practicing with my old bow just in case...

For now, this thing doesn't go in the woods.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

How many arrows do you have through the bow? On my duallys, I noticed the most creep for about the first 100 shoots, then it would settle for awhile...then a little more creep after about 5 or 6 hundred shots, then settle for good.

The duals are sensitive to cam synch, and summer weather will make them creep a bit more than usual..especially in the South or other areas of high humidity. I like to get the creep shot out way before the season starts because of this.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

since last tune...probably 60 arrows. Probably 60-100 arrows between that tune and the one prior.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Do yourself a big favor and have a set of cables made out of BCY 452X, I know string makers will tell you they prestretch their 8125 but believe me it really never stops creeping. Once you install the 452X cables take about 50 shots adjust timing and your done.
BD

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

More time at the range this weekend.

After having cams resynced, I marked them to watch for out of sync problems.

Anyway, was getting semi decent results...but still some odd fliers. Found that when I shot from a treestand, I was more consistent, but still got a flier (out of ten shots)

Also brought out my old XI Flatliner to see if my shooting has gone to heck...or try and narrow down what I'm doing with the new bow.

Old bow shot like a champ (It was wild to pick up a 2317 arrow after you've been shooting carbon 340's for a while).

I looked at the old bow to see what I might be doing differently with it. Big thing I noticed...peep is about 2" closer to nock. I also figured out why I never needed a kisser on the old bow. When at full draw, the arrow's outside vane is right in the corner of my mouth.

I tried holding the dually with the vane in the same anchor spot. Once I move the peep, it should work fine.

Part of my issues I'm sure are consistent anchor (which has been mentioned before). I'd put a kisser on...but it seems better to put less crud on the string and just change the peep to nock setup so that it works the same as my old bow.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Kisser installed, anchor solid...

Still the same issue.

I told the dealer I think it needs creep tuning. He wasn't real keen on the idea.

I believe what's causing a tiny bit of creep is not my draw arm.. It's my bow arm. If I shift grip or relax my shoulder at all while shooting, I think that causes variance.

i looked at Spot Hogs' website. The creep tuning instructions were pretty sparse. Anyone know of a more detailed description and instructions on this process.

If I can't get this resolved, I'm going to sell or trade the bow. I'm 70% to the point where I think I'll be using my old Flatliner this season.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Try shortening your draw by 1/2 inch.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

I got ahold of a tech guy at Spot hog and he pointed me to the right spot for discussion of the creep tuning (newsletter 10)

I will try shortening the draw...that is one thing dealer suggested. He suggested doing it by the loop, but I think you'ld have to shorten the actual draw length to handle this issue.

blah

I've Crept
 

Went to the dealer and had a sit down. Walked through all possible things that I could be doing and the bow could be doing. After this discussion...we started creeping.

First tried increasing the twist to bottom by 1 turn. This expanded my gap from 6-8" to 10". (BTW, I'm not attempting to creep my draw forward for testing...I'm just sitting comfortably at wall...or really pulling against it)

We then went back to in sync, and then out by 1 turn, and that put me at about a straight 5-6" gap.

Finally, we went out 1/2 twist more.

This gave me a 2" gap. I was kinda worried, because now I could get some droppers...if I held at the first wall I feel, the gap jumps to about 10".

After I sat and pondered a minute, I figured out what's going on. Being 1 1/2 twist out of sync, I can discern when one cam turns, then the other. If I pull to the first "wall" of the first cam coming over, I'll shoot oh, 10" low of poa. But, if I pull to the second wall (when both cams have turned) I'm on poa. If I then pull to the second wall...and reef against it, I'll maybe shoot 2" high of poa at 20 yds.

I will shoot it this way at the range tomorrow...I think I can go with this.

When the bow was in full sync, if I let my bow arm relax at all from being at the wall (and not reefing against it), the cams will try and pull the release out of my hand....there's no valley or wiggle room

With the cams now being this much out of sync...I know that if the bow is pulling my release away from me...I'm only at the first wall and have to come to the next bump (this is kinda making a valley for me where the in-sync bow has none).

We'll see how I do tomorrow.

Guys with dualies who've creep tuned....how much out of sync are you? Can you discern two bumps...or didn't you have to come that far out of whack?

The Dually may enter the woods
 

Went and shot this weekend.

I can use this bow for deer hunting.

I found that my 100 gn Ironheads shoot about 8" high of 100 gn field points (I weighed a couple of tips...looks like the field points are really around 101 gn, while the Titaniums are around 98-99... don't think that should be a big deal). The broadheads hit cleanly in the vertical plane with original sight alignment.

In shooting and setting the sights, I ended up with a zero at 25 yds.

Shorter ranges than that, I was getting anywhere from 2" to 5" high... I think the 5" shots were coming from pulling against the wall too hard.

I found I kept zero out to the 30ish yd range. At 35 yds, I have about 5" drop. But, I found that the way the bow is tuned now, if I pull hard against the wall, I will come back to zero. At 40 yds, I have about 8-10" drop. So there, if I pull hard, and come up about 5" on poa, I'm in the right zone (only problem is...if I strain, I get some wiggle and lose accuracy left to right).

So... I believe I know how it's going to shoot, and I feel comfortable taking it to the woods.

I've mentioned before that I must be doing something that shortens my draw, and then makes the bow want to pull the release out of my hand. I still haven't nailed down what I'm doing there.... It still happens even with the bow set up the way it is now. I have it happen most often if I bring the bow up, and am trying to bring poa up 2 to 4 inches to get on target. My biggest guesses are that I'm allowing the bow arm to relax (or am trying to come up on target with my elbow instead of my shoulder), or I'm moving my head forward as I concentrate on bring my poa up.... By doing this, I wouldn't notice my draw hand/anchor moving...because my whole head and anchor would be moving in unison to a shortened draw.

Anyway...we'll see how it goes from here.

Just want to point out for anyone who is looking at Duallies.... the problem is certainly not with the bow. It's got to be me. I'm thinking that if I move to another bow, the two things I'd change are 1) get a longer draw length with less loop...I say this because I wonder if my issues arise because i'm not able to come to a natural draw point and have my bow arm at a perfect 90 from the direction I'm facing, and 2) a bow with a bigger valley...so I can feel better where I am in the power curve better.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

I honestly don't know how you're going to remember to do all that when you're trying to make the shot on an animal. I've been reading your post with interest. I don't think it's you. You seem to have a much better grasp than most of what you're experiencing when drawing the bow. Can't you just shorten the draw? It seems like you're too long and when you relax you slip into a non-existent valley. You're definitely not too short.

RE: p.o.i jumping 6" to 1 foot at 15 yds
 

Hey, about time for an update.

Not a shootable deer came within bow range for me this year....kinda sucked. I launched one arrow at a buck someone in my party had wounded...but it was 60 yards and was more or less an attempt to put a second bad hit into an already wounded deer. Arrow hit a tree a foot and a half behind the deer, and we didn't find that deer during bow or gun season (although a neighbor found its half-eaten remains in January). When I went to find the arrow I had launched on that deer, I damn near tripped on a wounded deer that was hiding in the swamp. It was motionless, and I thought it could be dead...except I could see it had to be holding it's nose off the ground. So, shot it from about 10 feet and got to listen to it drown...real fun...and the only "kill" for the dually.

Anyways...of all the problems I had with the bow from start til season, I've still got a sick feeling in my craw about this bow and Bowtech.

I'm having the dealer retime the cams (again). I intend to practice with the bow this summer. If I'm not liking what it does by July, I'll sell it off to someone who it might suit better.

It was interesting when I dropped it off at my dealer, the first thing he said when I got it out was "Ah, an arm ripper." He then began to extol the virtures of the Allegiance.

They know, what I had finally figured out with the dually. If you do not follow targets perfectly from your waist, and allow your bow arm to follow the target (even as little as 1/2" at your bow hand), that's enough to come to the edge of the valley and your draw hand will get a jerk. People have said..."well, you have to turn at the waist to follow a target." to which I've said "no shxt." But, with this bow, there is absolutely no room for error. If the deer farts and you have to move your poa 1/2 forward on their chest...you better make damn sure you're doing it at the waist...not the bow arm.