Clearance/Arrow flight problems
07-26-2004, 06:50 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Enola, PA
Posts: 238
Clearance/Arrow flight problems
Ok i am still very new to this so i may not use the proper terminology and i may be looking at this problem all wrong.
I had a drop zone installed on my PSE Fire Flite recently. I was having some fletching clearance problems on the shelf so i took it back to the shop and they adjusted it. Next I had my peep changed and now the clearance problems are back. I think this is due to the nocking point moving due to the peep change.
I am also experiencing wierd arrow flight, basically my arrow is dropping like a rock at 30 yards. I have my sight lowered so far i am now experiencing clearance issues with it. At 20 yards it looks like the arrow is flying upwards from the bow, at 30 yards it is dropping fast.
This post from JeffB gave me a good deal of insight as to what my problem might be:
Following that logic this is what i think might be happening. The arrow is being driven down thus hitting the shelf and being deflected upwards initialy, this is why the arrow appears to be flying at an up angle at 15-20 yards, it then tops out and starts to descend and that results in the very low impact at 30 yards.
Does that make sense?
If i adjust the drop of the launcher arm and my nocking point I should be able to alleviate the clearance problem correct? once the clearance is resolved the flight should be truer and that will resolve the sight clearance problem and my need to have the sight very low to make up for the screwy flight path?
I tried paper tuning yesterday but the with the paper i used it tore big holes and i couldnt really tell what the arow was doing, i am going to try a bit stiffer paper today.
I had a drop zone installed on my PSE Fire Flite recently. I was having some fletching clearance problems on the shelf so i took it back to the shop and they adjusted it. Next I had my peep changed and now the clearance problems are back. I think this is due to the nocking point moving due to the peep change.
I am also experiencing wierd arrow flight, basically my arrow is dropping like a rock at 30 yards. I have my sight lowered so far i am now experiencing clearance issues with it. At 20 yards it looks like the arrow is flying upwards from the bow, at 30 yards it is dropping fast.
This post from JeffB gave me a good deal of insight as to what my problem might be:
Here's some great advice from Jerrod at Trophy Taker (taken from an AT thread)
quote:
In my experience, hybrid or cam.5's tend to behave more like a single cam when tuning than a dual cam. Therefore, most of the single cam/fall-away "rules" apply.
In the vast majority of cases, the rest is actually falling too quickly if you are getting fletch contact on the rest. In short, bows need differing amounts of "launch time" to get an arrow started correctly. Some bows need very little time and others need a lot. Unfortunately, this varies even among bows of the same name, poundage, draw length, etc. Perhaps the best way to reason this out is because a bow is a dynamic piece of equipment with flexible limbs, fast moving parts and perhaps as important as all of that, strings that can vary considerably in overall length, elasticity and even in terms of installation (how many twists, ratio of twists in buss cable, to string, to control cable etc.)
Therefore, rather than make generalizations here, I will say that I prefer to let the bow tell me what it wants.
It is tempting to think that contact automatically means the rest is not getting out of the way soon enough. However, slow motion video will usually show that as the rest is falling, the nock end of the arrow is being thrust downward and the entire arrow is actually "chasing" the launcher down and striking it near the shelf (or in some cases on the shelf) of the bow.
To remedy most of the time, we shorten the attachment cord, making the rest stay up longer and forcing the arrow to be launched through the center of the rest mounting hole. We can also raise the nock point on the string to compensate for the downward thrust. Keep in mind that many bows (even those that claim to not have any issues) can be subject to nock travel (both left and right and up or down). It doesn't make them "bad bows" it's just something that once we know what may be going on, we can address it while tuning.
With that being said, in very rare cases, spring tension may need to be increased (usually only in short draw length/low brace height bows). Each Trophy Taker rest does have pre-drilled holes inside the launcher housing to address this if needed. However, launcher removal and installation is not a super easy process and should not be started without specific instruction from Trophy Taker on how to go about it. I can e-mail instructions if needed.
Hope this helps and that you didn't fall asleep reading it. Let me know if I can be of further assistance. I can always be reached at: 406-826-0600 or [email protected].
Good Luck!
T Taker Tech
< Message edited by JeffB -- 6/30/2004 7:58:22 AM >
quote:
In my experience, hybrid or cam.5's tend to behave more like a single cam when tuning than a dual cam. Therefore, most of the single cam/fall-away "rules" apply.
In the vast majority of cases, the rest is actually falling too quickly if you are getting fletch contact on the rest. In short, bows need differing amounts of "launch time" to get an arrow started correctly. Some bows need very little time and others need a lot. Unfortunately, this varies even among bows of the same name, poundage, draw length, etc. Perhaps the best way to reason this out is because a bow is a dynamic piece of equipment with flexible limbs, fast moving parts and perhaps as important as all of that, strings that can vary considerably in overall length, elasticity and even in terms of installation (how many twists, ratio of twists in buss cable, to string, to control cable etc.)
Therefore, rather than make generalizations here, I will say that I prefer to let the bow tell me what it wants.
It is tempting to think that contact automatically means the rest is not getting out of the way soon enough. However, slow motion video will usually show that as the rest is falling, the nock end of the arrow is being thrust downward and the entire arrow is actually "chasing" the launcher down and striking it near the shelf (or in some cases on the shelf) of the bow.
To remedy most of the time, we shorten the attachment cord, making the rest stay up longer and forcing the arrow to be launched through the center of the rest mounting hole. We can also raise the nock point on the string to compensate for the downward thrust. Keep in mind that many bows (even those that claim to not have any issues) can be subject to nock travel (both left and right and up or down). It doesn't make them "bad bows" it's just something that once we know what may be going on, we can address it while tuning.
With that being said, in very rare cases, spring tension may need to be increased (usually only in short draw length/low brace height bows). Each Trophy Taker rest does have pre-drilled holes inside the launcher housing to address this if needed. However, launcher removal and installation is not a super easy process and should not be started without specific instruction from Trophy Taker on how to go about it. I can e-mail instructions if needed.
Hope this helps and that you didn't fall asleep reading it. Let me know if I can be of further assistance. I can always be reached at: 406-826-0600 or [email protected].
Good Luck!
T Taker Tech
< Message edited by JeffB -- 6/30/2004 7:58:22 AM >
Does that make sense?
If i adjust the drop of the launcher arm and my nocking point I should be able to alleviate the clearance problem correct? once the clearance is resolved the flight should be truer and that will resolve the sight clearance problem and my need to have the sight very low to make up for the screwy flight path?
I tried paper tuning yesterday but the with the paper i used it tore big holes and i couldnt really tell what the arow was doing, i am going to try a bit stiffer paper today.
07-26-2004, 07:51 AM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Clearance/Arrow flight problems
My method of adjusting dropaway rests is a little unconventional. I like to take them off the bow, place them carefully in the middle of the street and smack them - with all my might - with a 10-pound sledge hammer.
Then I install a GKF Golden Premier and forget all about dropaways. I have neither the patience nor the desire to fiddly-fart around trying to fine tune the drop rate on a freakin' arrow rest! It's a lot easier to adjust your nocks to get clearance between the prongs on a conventional rest.
Since you're still pretty new to this archery stuff, I'd very definitely suggest keeping your setup simple and as trouble free as possible. That does not include dropaways. (Honestly, I can't believe any decent pro shop would let you out the door with a setup that's adjusted that poorly!)
If you're determined to go ahead and wrestle with that TT, then I suggest checking out your tiller in order to improve your nock travel. (Actually, I recommend this for ALL setups, but especially for dropaways.) Start out by checking the static tiller, stretching a string tight across the axles and measuring from where the limbs join the riser. Make sure it measures the same on each end of the riser.
Then check your dynamic tiller. Assume your shooting stance, raise the bow and put your pin on the target. SLOWLY draw the bow, straight back, keeping an eye on the pin. If the bow pulls the pin up off the spot, the top limb is stronger than the bottom limb. Take weight off the top limb or add weight to the bottom limb, or both. If the bow pulls the pin down, the bottom limb is stronger than the top limb. Take weight off the bottom limb, add weight to the top, or both.
Keep adjusting until the bow lets that pin stay on the dot all the way through the draw till you hit anchor. That will balance the working power in both limbs and make the nock travel as good as you're likely to get.
Side benefits are, since you are pulling the same amount of force against each limb, it will make your bow draw smoother. It will reduce the amount of shock and recoil you feel, since both limbs are returning to brace height with the same amount of force. You will likely be able to hold on target much steadier, without one limb constantly trying to pull the pin off the dot. It will make your tuning a lot easier, since you're not having to compensate for one limb being stronger than the other. All things combined, it will enhance your bow's inherent accuracy.
Also, make sure to check that your cam rotation is timed properly. That can have a dramatic effect on nock travel.
If you had a Hooter Shooter you could fine tune tiller and cam timing until you got the very best nock travel, but my way is about as good as us regular folks can get it.
Then I install a GKF Golden Premier and forget all about dropaways. I have neither the patience nor the desire to fiddly-fart around trying to fine tune the drop rate on a freakin' arrow rest! It's a lot easier to adjust your nocks to get clearance between the prongs on a conventional rest.
Since you're still pretty new to this archery stuff, I'd very definitely suggest keeping your setup simple and as trouble free as possible. That does not include dropaways. (Honestly, I can't believe any decent pro shop would let you out the door with a setup that's adjusted that poorly!)
If you're determined to go ahead and wrestle with that TT, then I suggest checking out your tiller in order to improve your nock travel. (Actually, I recommend this for ALL setups, but especially for dropaways.) Start out by checking the static tiller, stretching a string tight across the axles and measuring from where the limbs join the riser. Make sure it measures the same on each end of the riser.
Then check your dynamic tiller. Assume your shooting stance, raise the bow and put your pin on the target. SLOWLY draw the bow, straight back, keeping an eye on the pin. If the bow pulls the pin up off the spot, the top limb is stronger than the bottom limb. Take weight off the top limb or add weight to the bottom limb, or both. If the bow pulls the pin down, the bottom limb is stronger than the top limb. Take weight off the bottom limb, add weight to the top, or both.
Keep adjusting until the bow lets that pin stay on the dot all the way through the draw till you hit anchor. That will balance the working power in both limbs and make the nock travel as good as you're likely to get.
Side benefits are, since you are pulling the same amount of force against each limb, it will make your bow draw smoother. It will reduce the amount of shock and recoil you feel, since both limbs are returning to brace height with the same amount of force. You will likely be able to hold on target much steadier, without one limb constantly trying to pull the pin off the dot. It will make your tuning a lot easier, since you're not having to compensate for one limb being stronger than the other. All things combined, it will enhance your bow's inherent accuracy.
Also, make sure to check that your cam rotation is timed properly. That can have a dramatic effect on nock travel.
If you had a Hooter Shooter you could fine tune tiller and cam timing until you got the very best nock travel, but my way is about as good as us regular folks can get it.
07-27-2004, 04:02 AM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Enola, PA
Posts: 238
RE: Clearance/Arrow flight problems
Thanks Arthur, that sledgehammer method might be the way to go in the end, but for now i am going to be stubborn and try to get things in order.
I took a giant step last night in terms of progress, i bought a bow square, no more eyballing
tonight i am going to start looking at the tiller.
Anyone else have any ideas or opinions?
thanks
I took a giant step last night in terms of progress, i bought a bow square, no more eyballing
tonight i am going to start looking at the tiller.Anyone else have any ideas or opinions?
thanks
07-27-2004, 01:56 PM
#4
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: GA
Posts: 67
RE: Clearance/Arrow flight problems
The problems I had with my Shakey Hunter on my AR ended up being a problem with where the cord was served into my cable. Ultimately, we had to play with where it was served into the cable until the launcher arm came up at the last second in the draw cycle. Like the last inch or so. That ended up being relatively low (or as least I thought it looked low) in the cable. Once we got clearance, then we were on to tuning, which required a slightly high nock point. After all that, I really like the Shakey Hunter. Seems to be very quiet and pretty darn accurate...
07-27-2004, 09:28 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Enola, PA
Posts: 238
RE: Clearance/Arrow flight problems
I think i am getting there slowly but slowly
did some prelim paper tuning tonight. Nock left tear, according to the Easton guide this is due to poor clearance, weak arrow and/or torquing the bow..
I think clearance is still a bit of an issue so i will work on it some more tomorrow. I am checking a littel deeper into my arrow selection. Currently using CX Terminator 4560s. Depending on the ATA (AMO) of my bow i may be a bit underspined.
If nothing else this is a great learning experience.
did some prelim paper tuning tonight. Nock left tear, according to the Easton guide this is due to poor clearance, weak arrow and/or torquing the bow..
I think clearance is still a bit of an issue so i will work on it some more tomorrow. I am checking a littel deeper into my arrow selection. Currently using CX Terminator 4560s. Depending on the ATA (AMO) of my bow i may be a bit underspined.
If nothing else this is a great learning experience.
07-27-2004, 11:42 PM
#6
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 140
RE: Clearance/Arrow flight problems
If i adjust the drop of the launcher arm and my nocking point I should be able to alleviate the clearance problem correct? once the clearance is resolved the flight should be truer and that will resolve the sight clearance problem and my need to have the sight very low to make up for the screwy flight path?
One may need to change the way a Lifting cord is attached. And you will need a marked measured off arrow for tuning.
Put a short serving 2-3” (serving size .018) at the point it is to be attached. Tie a short string nock in the middle of this serving. However you attach the Lifting cord, do it in such a way, so it can be moved & set by rotating the string nock up & down. You can then experiment on bringing the rest up from say ¾” to 2” more or less @ 1/64” at a time. Keep a record on what goes on.
When you put new fletch on an arrow look at it in the sunlight before you shoot it, & look at it in the sunlight after each time you shoot it making sure there is no contact. You will see a mark if there is.
And the fletch and the side of the fletch the mark is on will be a clue.
07-28-2004, 05:57 PM
#7
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Enola, PA
Posts: 238
RE: Clearance/Arrow flight problems
I am thowing the towel in. I wanted to do this on my own for my own experience but it is driving me completely crazy. Tomorrow i go back to the shop and I am going to have them do the tuning.
I paper tuned tonight and got consistent left nock tears. Raised the rest - left nock tear, lowered the rest - left nock tear, moved the rest right - left nock tear, moved the rest left - left nock tear. Did the same with the nock point and got the left nock tear over and over and over. When it was all said and done i had accomplished nothing and the foam channel on my shelf is still getting shredded by the fletching.
If the bow shop cant get the Drop Zone to work i am going to try a Shakey Hunter, if it doesnt work them i am going with the Whisker Biscuit
I paper tuned tonight and got consistent left nock tears. Raised the rest - left nock tear, lowered the rest - left nock tear, moved the rest right - left nock tear, moved the rest left - left nock tear. Did the same with the nock point and got the left nock tear over and over and over. When it was all said and done i had accomplished nothing and the foam channel on my shelf is still getting shredded by the fletching.
If the bow shop cant get the Drop Zone to work i am going to try a Shakey Hunter, if it doesnt work them i am going with the Whisker Biscuit
07-28-2004, 09:28 PM
#8
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 140
RE: Clearance/Arrow flight problems
ORIGINAL: Krotalus
I am thowing the towel in. I wanted to do this on my own for my own experience but it is driving me completely crazy. Tomorrow i go back to the shop and I am going to have them do the tuning.
I paper tuned tonight and got consistent left nock tears. Raised the rest - left nock tear, lowered the rest - left nock tear, moved the rest right - left nock tear, moved the rest left - left nock tear. Did the same with the nock point and got the left nock tear over and over and over. When it was all said and done i had accomplished nothing and the foam channel on my shelf is still getting shredded by the fletching.
If the bow shop cant get the Drop Zone to work i am going to try a Shakey Hunter, if it doesnt work them i am going with the Whisker Biscuit
I am thowing the towel in. I wanted to do this on my own for my own experience but it is driving me completely crazy. Tomorrow i go back to the shop and I am going to have them do the tuning.
I paper tuned tonight and got consistent left nock tears. Raised the rest - left nock tear, lowered the rest - left nock tear, moved the rest right - left nock tear, moved the rest left - left nock tear. Did the same with the nock point and got the left nock tear over and over and over. When it was all said and done i had accomplished nothing and the foam channel on my shelf is still getting shredded by the fletching.
If the bow shop cant get the Drop Zone to work i am going to try a Shakey Hunter, if it doesnt work them i am going with the Whisker Biscuit
Before the fall-away I made my own arrow rest.
I have only tuned 3 bows with the fall-way(Pat 04, Mathews 3D, & Darton Lighting)
All seam to tune perfect. I recognize 3 bows does not make a good amateur.
The rest was the T.K.O. GKF
Being a speed nut, I only use Cheetah 45/70 from Carbon Tech, Satellite 2960, and Beman ICS 500, for the 60# more or less. I use the weight of the Arrowhead to give me the weight I wish the arrow to be for hunting or target. I use only 3” more or less off-set fletch.
On your bow you may have a 7” brace, The arrow will leave the string within about 6” more or less of the arrow rest. In that 6” if the fletch(end of the arrow) moves off line more than ¼” one does have set-up problems.
The Torsion spring tension should be set with enough tension to get it out of the way in time.
With the bow in your hand & with an arrow on the rest, pull the Lifting cord, hold the arrow in place, drop the lifting cord. Eyeball the fletching distance from the cables, window wall, & arrow rest if you have ¼” clearance that should do. Now the cables are only an inch or two from the release point & should not need more than 1/8”.
I did notice if you only have 1/8” clearance to the arrow rest there can be contact. Depend on when you drop the rest.
On all 3 bows above I started with the rest set in line with the string & about ¼” high. & I do not believe nothing was change more than 1/8” on all 3 bows.
07-29-2004, 12:29 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Enola, PA
Posts: 238
RE: Clearance/Arrow flight problems
Grrrr I am such a glutton for punishment, I am going to take one more stab at it tonight before admitting defeat.
Talked to a fellow bowhunter at work, he looked at my setup and thinks the rest is dropping way too soon. Tonight i am going to shorten the cord and give it one more go round.
Wish me luck
Talked to a fellow bowhunter at work, he looked at my setup and thinks the rest is dropping way too soon. Tonight i am going to shorten the cord and give it one more go round.
Wish me luck
