True, but spine degradation is a real issue with carbons, and while they might still shoot, where they land is anybody's guess...

True

I have some Beman ICS arrow that are still shooting great after 4 years. 4 hard years Technology is gettin better

Ok Len, you opened the "can"...so please explain the +'s/-'s of poltruded vs. wrapped carbon arrows and why poltruded can have an advertised straightness of .006 and still spin straighter that wrapped arrows with a straightness factor of .001
Note the way I colored my post

Frank: I have not had a chance to build/test the ST Axis arrows personally. I was given a dozen and have yet to build/test them. Been busy.

Straightarrow: The Tuning Trilogy, as I teach it, is the bow, the arrows, and the shooter. All three have to be tuned and 'in-sync' in order to have a completely tuned "system", IMPO.

Techy/mlaubner: I'm sorry, but I don't hold much faith in most of what is advertised. I guess having been burned so often has made me very leery. As far as the straightness of anything, it's all in how it's measured and by whom.

Techy quote: "A carbon is eaither broke or still strait, most likely still strait. I have stepped on carbons I have seen them shot and bounce off trees, floors, and walls and live to be shot countless more times (I have worked at a sport shop for 4 years ). I can't say this for aluminums. Everything is a compromise." I must disagree with you on this statement. I've had carbons 'blow out' while trying to tune a bow with them. I just had a customer leave the store and actually witnessed his arrow degrade in straightness before and after we shot it. It was not straight to start and got worse as we shot it. On the other hand, I have seen carbons last for years. It all seems to stem from how good they are to start with and what type of quality construction has been put into them. After all, most often we can't really see the inside of our arrows; but, I have seen some cross-sections that would bring tears to your eyes.

And I agree that "Technology is gettin better"; but, we have to deal with the 'here and now'. I just have a real hard time dealing with customers who hand me crooked carbon arrows with which to tune there bows. It's a waste of my time and their money.

I must say I have never had either if these happen to me, although it is possible. Sorry you have had such bad luck with them.[&:]

My experiance with pure carbons has been fare at best . The first set I bought were easton carbon revolutions , they were complete junk . I shot alluminums for 2 years after that . Then last year I gave carbon express terminators a try and they shot well , for about 100 to 200 shots each , and then they started shoot'n wild . I've shot acc's allso and they seem to be the best of the best , but they will bend allso , Im going to give the axis shafts a try , and hope they hold on to their spine for longer than my carbon express arrows did .

Len, I second Frank's notion on getting your finding and opinions on the Axis shafts. Your opinion is very well respected by me.

My personal finding are awefully good with them. I only have one "flyer" out of the dozen I built. I weighed and matched each one to get a dozen that were very consistant in weight. I've spun them all and they are all pretty darn close to being as good as an ACC. I think my flyer is just an odd spined one out of the bunch. Its marked "the oddball" and for just practice and shooting at the ground hog I have out back.

I totally agree with Len's posts. Carbon's are getting better and the good ones are expensive. I personally view a good arrow 2nd on my list of most important things in the shooting system.

My purpose for this thread is to warn the unknowing about the short-comings of following a craze. Just like cam design and limb design, carbon arrow design/quality is getting better. For those who don't have the ability/tools/knowledge/desire to deal with arrow selection, at least be warned that problems still exist. For those who sometimes think they're getting a 'real deal', dumping junk onto the market is not a new phenomenom.

I'm sure all have heard or experienced both positives and negatives. It's the negatives that hurt your efficiency/accuracy/confidence the most. There are ways to check certain aspects concerning arrows, but not all. Performing tests at various levels will not guarantee results; but, it will increase your odds.

I'm just asking that you consider putting the arrows at a higher level of performance requirements than is normally given to them. It is my hope that this will help you in the end.

Good shooting and good hunting to all.

Excellent point. Many shooters consider arrows to "just be another component of the system" when, in reality, they are probably one of the most important. I believe the rationale is that if everything else on the bow is top dollar then the arrows will not make that much of a difference.
That could not be farther from the truth.

As for the earlier comment about carbons being either straight or broken.....is that visually broken? The reason I ask is because I have had numerous ICS shafts from a variety of companies that showed no outward breaks and yet were bent worse than some aluminums I own. Internal carbon layers can crack thus reducing the support structure. Sad but true.

I will stick with aluminum for now. Yes I use carbon for my broadhead tests, but aluminum is easier to work with, cheaper and more consistant out of the gate. I check my arrows often and just like the performance of aluminum better. Len as always, makes excellent points and as we find out, not all arrows are created equell.