Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Is this true??

The advertisment in Peterson's says they are lighter, stiffer, and will add 30-150 fps to your current rig.

I haven't seen anything posted about them and was just wondering if this is a scam or if there is a catch........there HAS to be ;)

They say penetration is better too [:o]


Now that I have read all that THEY say.............what do YOU guys think?

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Sure but at the cost of your limbs and riser cracking or exploding.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

I don't care how stiff the arrows are, with not enough grains per inch---per your draw weight, you take big chances.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

I also wondered about this...it IS one heck of a claim to make.
If you followed the rules of 5gr./pound, I just don't understand how their arrows can overcome the laws of physics.
Can anyone explain?

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

They don't.

HCA claims one of their bows is safe to shoot with arrow weights down to 3 grains per pound. If you look at their propaganda about their carbon revolution arrows, a chart showing the comparison between their arrows and other carbon arrow brands and models, they show hitting 342 fps with a 250 grain arrow from a 70 pound bow.

That's just under 3.6 grains per pound. That's too dang close to a dryfire for my blood. I'd be flinching like a sonuvagun every time I shot that thing!

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Thanks Arthur P,
I should have read the ad a little closer. If this is the case, I am of the opinion that they are grossly irresponsible and possibly face liability issues.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

So are they only safe to be shot out the HCA bow??


How can theybe telling people to shoot 3 grains per pound and not have any bows falling apart out there?

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

They shouldn't. I haven't seen the ad but if they are telling people thats its okay to shoot these arrows from any bow at 3grs per lb then they are being very irresponcible. I have my doubts about the HCA bows holding up at those low arrow weights as well. I foresee a lot of people staggering into emergency rooms with cams and idler wheels lodged in their nostril.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

I just had the opertunity to look over a bunch of High countries. Quality control, IMO is still a big issue with them - Very poor IMO.

HC is commiting comercial suicide. Your product MUST be spot on, perfect, if you dare to warranty and promote such light arrows.

They kick like a free basing mule, bare bow............(2-1/2 lbs[:-])..........need two pounds of stab just to keep it still.

They chose a direction that will IMO lead to an abrupt dead end. I like the carbon riser, but they are just too light, too expensive, to poorly manufactured to achieve what they are trying to do in the market.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

All other things being equal, a 2.5# bow with 2 pounds of stab is a whole lot better than a 4.5 pound bow with no stabs.

I'm wondering about the lower than 5 grain stuff. Easton has had a shaft capable of that kind of performance for a while now. When people first talked about 5 grains everyone said just what is being said now about 3. Indentical arguments, it was consider insane, yatta yatta. I just wonder whether the current conservatism is any more justified. It stands to reason that if amo and IBO are willing to essentialy stand behind 6 or 5 grains for every modern bow, there is some bow out there that can do 4.9, maybe 3.9.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

I agree - but for how long, and IMO HC doesn't have the bow.

even the best engines in the world, you redline them every shift, and they will break.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Ossage, with all due respect, that is complete and utter nonsense. When IBO came out with that 5 grains per pound rule, the only people that opposed it were the idiots that were shooting well under that. Everyone else welcomed it with open arms because they were tired of dodging projectiles that once were parts of some numbnut's bow.

People got tired of seeing blood and gore every time they went to a shoot. People got tired of seeing people with their teeth knocked out by busted risers. People got tired of seeing friends forced to quit archery altogether because of loosing eyes or having nerves in their arms and wrists severed by jagged shards of what used to be glass and carbon limbs.

And now, with ambulance chasing lawyers hiding behind every bush, clubs have to give deep thought to liability concerns. Anyone shooting less than AMO minimum arrow weight recommendations for their draw length, draw weight and bow design will not be welcome at our club.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

I saw the whole HCA set-up at the Harrisburg,PA.show,even shot the carbon bow with the Carbon Rev.arrows-30in.draw@70lbs,235gr.totol arrow weight--372fps.Let's put it this way,it was interesting(the speed and such),but am I going to chance blowing up my LX?,not a chance!!Sometimes,speed kills,and I'm not talking about game...Bob

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

i here alot of bad thing about hc bows i not i big fan of them but 3 of my buddies shoot them one is that all carbon bow he loves it never had a problem with it another guy has a four runner and had it for 4 years and no problem same with the other guy.. i guess if you dont shoot it dont knock it[:@]. i have a bow tech but i dont say mathews suck or parker or whatever

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

these arrow are working just fine for me . I use them for 3d shoots
I have them set up with a 85g tip & 3" vanes & 3" feathers !/2 dos. of each, arrows are speed pro max. I do use a HCA TSS bow
set a little over 60#s ( my bow at 7029 will shoot 225g arrow at 350fps)
If you don't have a HCA you need to stay to mfg. recommendations
with a 100g tip it is easy to get a 300g arrow to use with a 60# bow & you will be very impressed with that set up
I have a friend shooting a Mathews Legacy ? at 60#s 27.5 " draw shooting gt arrows at 258fps & with the speed pro max arrows it is shooting 289fps both arrow with a 100g tip
(not slamming gt arrows)
Gregg

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Gregg, for your sake, I hope your bow never explodes on you. That sure would be a hard way to learn a lesson!

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

I've been shooting alot of HCA bows at extreme speeds & yet to have one problem. (mostly for demonstraions ) people really want to see the bows at these speeds. & the first thing they say is that bow is quiet & 2nd is how fast was that .
I set most of my bow a 60 t0 65# for a very nice shooting set up.
thanks for the concern. the way I look at it, why pull 70#s when you can achieve the same result at 60#s & that is what this arrow will do
Gregg

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

c4extrem

Do you realize that you are not legal on any IBO or ASA shoot you go to so you are disqualified before you ever turn in your scorecard.Shoot what you want,I really don't care, but be aware of the rules.


oneidaeagle,I really don't think people are getting on HCA too bad because their problems are a matter of record and fact.They are obviously trying to change their immage.It may or may not be too late but I hope they know what they are doing for the sake of those that choose to shoot those extremely light arrows.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

TFOX
I just go to the local league shoot on the weekends & shoot the hunter class. just to keep up my skills & to have a little fun. I'll have to go out in the shop & see if I can get that arrow to go that slow:D
Gregg
ps I would like to try one of these shoots IBO or ASA is there a site I can get a scheduel for WI.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

The ASA websight is www.asaarchery.com but they have a speed limit of 280 fps in most classes but a 260 fps speed limit for the hunter class.Quess you need to get some serious weight added to your arrows for those kinds of speeds.Do it early so you will learn how to judge yardage because those guys can flat out judge.


Not sure about the IBO web site.Just do a search.There board is on this site.Scroll down in the forum categories. They have a 5 gr /pound rule and if you choose to shoot lighter than that,you have a 280 fps speed limit.You must claim which category before they check you.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Just checked www.ibo.net

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Arthur,

Really? My understanding is that the AMO minimums vary greatly depending on draw length, draw weight, point weight, cam style, etc...? I will give your club credit if all of the members are aware enough of these issues to choose an arrow that fits the required specs. But, with that statement you made that would rule out a vast amount of arrows currently being marketed...and not just the dangerous arrows being marketed by HCA, etc...

I know I am going to get a nice healty response for this comment but..... Don't you think the AMO minimum arrow weight recommendations are a little outdated considering the new materials/designs used in limbs, strings, etc..? I could be totally wrong but I do not think they have updated that chart for quite some time. If memory serves me correctly going by the chart recommendation I should be shooting an arrow somewhere around 500 or so grains for my setup. I cannot remember the last time I regularly used an arrow of that weight and yet have never had a problem with anything other than normal wear and tear on my bows.

Your thoughts?

Back the to the original post....Does anyone here actually own and regularly shoot the new HCA bows with those ultralight carbons?

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

I think a few do..................but your gonna have to wait a bit for their replys..............

Its kinda tough to type with one hand[:o][:o]:D;)

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Yes indeed, sometimes going below 5 grains per pound for short draw/low weight/low efficiency bows. Sometimes going over 7 grains per pound for a long draw on a heavy, hard cam bow.

Are our members aware of the specs? The AMO chart is posted on the bulletin board, so they should be. They are definitely aware of the IBO and ASA rules. Plus, most of our members have a good dose of common sense. I don't think we'd have a problem among our membership. Frankly, with the encroachment of development around our range, the ASA rules are looking better than IBO rules. Limiting arrow speeds might help eliminate the chances of a stray arrow leaving club property. But I guarantee anyone comes through the gate shooting an HCA bow or Carbon Revolution arrows will be checked.

Do I think the chart is out of date? No. It has not been updated since the day they put it out, but why should they update? Designs have changed, but they're still using the same materials in bows today that we had 15 years ago when the mfrs wouldn't warranty less than 6 grains per pound.

Since people bitched that the mfrs would advertise IBO speeds but wouldn't warranty their bows at 5 grains per pound, the mfrs had to beef the bows up a bit in order to withstand 5 grains per pound. But the materials they're using haven't changed dramatically, if at all. With, of course, the exception of carbon risers and I'm not all that convinced HCA's on solid footing with their claims about arrow weights.

And to the idea that --- "if the manufacturers warrant 5 grains per pound, then there has to be a safety factor figured in, so the bow must be able to shoot X grains per pound and not blow up." That may be so, but that means you KNOW you're into no-man's land and into the safety bumper. Problem is, there is no line to let you know when you've gone too damn far. Like a heroin junky wanting to get as high as he can... He did a little more and lived. A little more and lived. Then, a little more wound up being a little too much and he's on a slab at the morgue.

Where will YOUR bow blow up? 2.7 grains per pound or 4.1 grains per pound? YOU DON'T KNOW. Just like the junky that didn't know when to quit.

Besides, I do not understand WHY we need to go lighter than 5 grains per pound. Extremely fast arrow, yes. But, as pointed out, illegal to shoot in sanctioned tournaments. As a hunting arrow?? They've got to be kidding.[>:]

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Arthur,

Thank you for the response. As good as always. :)

Now I know you have an engineering/technical background so I will not presume to know more about this however, I have always operated with the understanding that today's designs are more durable than something from 10-15 years ago. Now, if that does not come from the materials used then maybe it comes from the way that they are being used. Risers and limbs look and exhibit different characteristics than they did back in the late '80s and early '90s.

Lets look at the AMO chart. As you mentioned it has not changed since the day that they produced it. In this instance we are using it to reinforce the perspective that today's arrows are too light based on those standards. However, could the opposite not also be said? Aren't the cams on today's bows helping to generate more energy dispersal to the arrow? If that is true then maybe the AMO chart recommendations are not safe enough either since the bows they were basing it on were not capable of producing the energy output that we see today.

Personally, I do not believe that to be the case anymore than thinking that the AMO recommendations are the absolute minimum arrow weight that a person can safely shoot out of their bow. If that were the case then I would have seen some form of detrimental effects on any of my bows. In other words, my personal experience just begs to differ.

To give a comparative example, how many folks on these forums do you think shoot at or above the AMO recommended minimum arrow weight for their bows? I would be willing to wager that a significant majority do not. Further, if a majority do not shoot that minimum weight then would it not stand to reason that we should be seeing alot more posts about excessive wear and tear on bows and or personal injury?

I am, by no means, promoting the use of ultralight arrows for any setup. Using too light of an arrow can and does lead to personal injury and damage to equipment. However, I think the question really is "what is an ultralight arrow?". I do think that the AMO's chart is a better tool to be used to determine this in comparison to just a blanket number like "6 grains per pound, etc..." since it does take into account many of the variables for any given setup. However, I think the chart needs to be "adjusted" to better represent current bow designs and the experiences expressed by many.

It sort of reminds me of the Pope and Young "Percentage of letoff rule". Can I get a little asterisk placed on that AMO chart anywhere? :)

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

LOL! I'd almost made a nasty wisecrack about that P&Y letoff thing and thought better of it before I posted. [8D]

I don't doubt you've not seen any ill effects from shooting very light arrows. For a while there, you were changing bows more often than I changed underwear. [:-];) (I have noticed your new bow acquisitions have slowed down a bit since you became a family man;)) Not all bows will have a sudden, violent failure within a few shots with exceedingly light arrows. The damage does occur though and it is cumulative. Sooner or later, the bow will fail. The lighter the arrow, the sooner the failure.

Maybe the reason we don't see many complaints about excessive wear and tear is because we see so many posts about folks buying the latest, greatest bow every year. Some of these guys buy several new bows every year!

I intend to shoot my ProTec until I hang up archery, so I have not shot an arrow less than 7.5 grains per pound with it. Most of my shooting is at 9 grains per pound. If it's as good a bow as my old Hoyt's, it should still be shooting great for the next 10 years at least with that arrow weight. It will probably outlast me.

As I said above, mfrs had to beef up their designs in order to keep from going broke while warrantying bows for 5 grains per pound, which allows the AMO chart to remain fairly viable even though the energy levels have taken a quantum leap. And they certainly couldn't stand a personal injury liability lawsuit so, yes, there is a safety margin figured in there.

Frankly, I think it's a fool's errand to go under that safety margin. If it scares the mfrs, where all they have to lose is money, it should scare the pants off the archer. Archers have a lot more riding on that safety margin. Maybe they'll be lucky and won't get hurt, but they could just as easily be blinded or crippled for life. I've heard of at least one death that was attributed to a bow blowing up, where the shooter's skull was smashed by half of a riser.

I doubt knowing it was a freak accident was much comfort for that shooter's family.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Point taken.

True. I have only owned four so far this year. ;) Though there have been a few that I kept for a year or two with no ill effects. I could understand if the shooter was shooting excessively light arrows for their setup over an extended period of time (read 2 or 3 years). That is just an invitation to failure.

I have to be more "discreet" with my bow purchasing now that I am married. The wife knows all the links to these forums...;)

To be somewhat of a smart...., I think you just found a good reason for folks to buy new bows each year. Safety! [&:]

I knew I would getcha with that one. :D

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

That's also why most used compounds are about as valuable as used beer when it comes to resale value. Besides there being a ton of them out there, who knows how much damage they've sustained from being shot with arrows that were too light.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Dang, Frank. I nearly let you slip one past me. You've only owned 4 different bows THIS YEAR? We're not quite even finished up with the 3rd month yet! You're still an overachiever, aintcha? [8D]

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

I agree but thats what they are claiming , They claim "better penitration"

About 99% , Its hard to get an arrow below that in weight , with any kind of tip , that will spine correctly .

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

I know that's what they're claiming, but where's the proof?

We've had all kinds of arguments about whether KE or momentum is the better determinant for predicting penetration, but their arrows fall short on both counts.

Just look at the comparison chart they have on their website. You notice they don't list KE for any of those arrows, just speed. But someone that takes the time to break out the ol' calculator can easily see what's going on.

Take their fastest arrow, 250 grains @ 342 fps. That calcs out to 65 ft lbs. Look at the other brands: 378 gns @ 281 fps = 66 ft lbs; 413 gns @ 270 fps = 67 ft lbs; 473 gns @ 256 fps = 69 ft lbs. If you figure momentum, their 250 gn arrow has 20% less mo than the 378 gn arrow; 24% less than the 413; 30% less than the 473.

There is no way I buy that their arrows will give better penetration on game. The laws of physics are not on their side.

Not to mention that their retained energy downrange has got to be atrocious.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

You are joking right? Take any Internal Component Carbon with the correct spine for the individual's setup and I can almost guarantee you that it is going to be under the AMO recommended minimum arrow weight for that person's particular setup.

With aluminums it is much more difficult to accomplish because they are generally heavier per inch. However, if FOC is ignored then a 100 grain tip on a thin walled/wide diameter aluminum can be below AMO recommended specs. When I get home I will grab a few arrows and weigh them to verify this.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

ijimmy, confusing AMO/IBO?

Frank, while you got the scale out, slap one of them NVs on there, would ya?

Unless they're all boxed up and ready to go :)

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Frank, I just wandered around t the AMO chart and you definitely have a point. Most people definitely ARE shooting well under the AMO chart.

Looking at my stuff, I'm okay. At least NOW I am. For my round wheel ProTec @ 60 pounds and 33" draw, it shows a minimum arrow weight of 352 grains. 5.87 grains per pound. All my ICS type carbons weigh around 450 grains with feather fletch and 125 gn tips, so I never even got close to minimun with this bow.

For a 70 pound, hard cam bow at 33", it shows a minimum of 586 grains or 8.37 grains per pound which would have me shooting at least 2419's. When I was shooting those carbons on my hard cam 70 pounders, I was 136 grains UNDER AMO minimum! No wonder those bows rattled and clanked so bad when I got rid of them. ;)

Now, someone with a more normal draw length, say 30" and shooting a 70 pound hard cam bow, the recommended minimum is 487 grains, a fraction of a hair under 7 grains per pound.

So most are already well under the AMO minimum, but is that really a reason to use even lighter arrows?

And I guess that forces me to retract my earlier comment and change it to anyone not shooting a minimum of IBO legal equipment needs to stay away from our club. :eek:

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Why do you think these bows are so expensive? To cover the warranty! The limbs of today are about the same as 10 years ago. Risers, string materials and cams are different for sure.

One more point......limbsavers, high tech stabilizers, hush kits!!! There is as much if not more vibration on the newer bows. Vibration and noise is muffled, but the facts are the same amount of stress is still taking place.

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

My bad , I supose I did get the 2 mixed . I know its hard for me to get an arrow [that I would want to shoot ] any where near 5 grains per lb of pull weight , even with a carbon and light tip , ie 75 grains . I wont consider ,gold tips or , hca arrows .

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

My finished 27" ACC 3/49s with a 75 grain tip weigh right at 350 grains, and shoot wonderfully at 29" DL and 70# DW.

I'm shooting them with a 100 grain tip at 64#s currently, still flying beautifully... :)

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Rangeball, if they shoot all that wonderfully for you, why is it you're wanting to know how to tame the recoil on your Hornet of yours? ;) Just so you'll know, the recommended minimum for your setup is 454 grains. Go to that arrow weight and I bet you'd see a huge difference in recoil. Ah.. but that speed thing raises it's ugly head, don't it.[&:]

Anybody beginning to see why I've been saying, for the past 5 years at least, that the industry is totally screwed up?

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

Art, I have a 500 grain terminator at my disposal, and it really doesn't impact recoil to any discernable level. I was suprised, I really thought it would... :(

Now if that extra 4 ounces was mounted on the bow... :)

RE: Carbon Revolution Black Diamond Arrows=30-150 fps Faster???
 

If another 150 gns of arrow weight didn't do anything to settle the bow down, I'd suggest an exorcist. [8D]