"Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

OK, maybe I am fortunate to have the expertice of Len from MD's shop close to my home(Macrotech).
But I want to share what I learned and get you opinions on this subject material.
Hybrid cams offer the best of all possible worlds to the compound bow shooter. Ease of tuning, "true" straight and LEVEL nock travel (which of course imparts less negative effects on arrow flight, which leads to ease of tuning) and a host of other positive attributes that I am sure you will read about as this thread grows. I will defer to Pinwheel12, Len and other to add more as they are certainly more the expert that I.
So here's the thing, we all seem to brag about this bow or that bow,(none of us would want to beleive that we bought an inferior bow) claiming that ours is the best for what ever reason.
My first bow was a Mathews, I thought I was buying the best for an assortment of reasons, not the least of which was the straight line cam. Seems like a great idea, get the arrow off the string in a straight line. This will give you the most efficiency from your bow set-up and in return yeild the highest K.E. and the truest flight path. Yes, the cam does produce a straight line but it is not LEVEL. So all the tuning you do is to counter or make up for this defeciency. In essence, the bow is working against the arrow and our job is to "fix it" to achieve good arrow/broadhead flight, i.e. tuning.
Now enters the hybrid cam which offers both straight and level nock travel and a host of improvments over both the single and two cam systems.
Suddenly you see a plethora of manufactures scrambling to introduce this cam system into their line-up of new bows, Hoyt, Bowtech, etc.,all the while continuing to bash the other guys product (a symptom of marketing hype)
Now I fully believe in "comfort zones", and everyone has one, including me. There will always be room in the industry for all three types of cam because of everyones comfort zone.
But what are your opinions on this "new" cam system, is it the wave of the future? ( and yes, I know it is not really new, Darton has had it patented for many years, but like the fallaway rest, some ideas are just ahead of their time and take awhile for our acceptance to catch up.)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Though I do not totally agree with some issues surrounding nock travel I will say that hybrid cams are here to stay. They are a step forward in many regards and offer obvious advantages to both single and dual cam designs.

In my opinion, they are another tool in the arsenal.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

mlaubner, you've been to Len's shop, and you're choosing a Darton over a Merlin? CPS over Omega?

Curious why you chose the Darton. For what it's worth, both are bows I'm interested in, and I've never shot or held either...

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Hi Rangeball,
The darton was , in a word, "incredible". I shot the Magnum Extreme, 3.4# rocket launcher, that was quiet with no hand shock, vibration or string "twang". This bow was "off-the-shelf". Why the Darton over the others? They are the originators, the one others will follow...and they are made in the USA:) I wish I could put into words my feelings on this bow...simply...I'm having one:D

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I have to agree with Frank here. Over the years there have been many perfect scores shot with bows that didn't have this design.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Did you happen to also shoot the avalanche extreme? If so, what were your thoughts on it?

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Though I have not got to shoot a Darton either, the Avalanche is a great looking bow, but all I got to do was hold it and look it over.[:o] Once my hand heals, a Darton will get a serious look see from me.

Wheels, one cams, dual cams, hybrids..........I am sure more variations are to come. They all work and can be set up effectively.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Big John,
I'm not suggesting that other systems don't work...Yes perfect scores have been shot with these other cams, it has also been done with prong type rests and other equipment from the past. But archery has evolved and when the "moment of truth" arrives, would you not want every advantage possible? Also, We as archers can get used to, or tune our bows to whatever conditions we "need" to to compensate for deficiencies that exist in the then, current technology.

Rangeball,
The avalanche extreme is about the same length ATA as the Q2 and I want a more compact bow for ground/still hunting situations. If I were making a lateral move I would definitely give this bow a closer look. However after shooting the magnum that avalanche would really have to shine bright!

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Of course they can. And a carbaurated motor can be made to work as well as a fuel injected motor but does that mean that the carb motor is equal to the performance of the fuel injected motor?;)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

" when the moment of truth arrives" the person aiming the bow will have the weight of success or failure on his shoulders, not on which cam system is installed on his bow. The hybrid system is here to stay due more to marketing and the need to increase sales by many manufactures, than it's superiority over the other designs. 90% of the hunters and shooters out there won't be able to tell the difference in accuracy (IMO) due to the cam system. Many more things add up in the design of the bow's grip, draw cycle, brace, etc to produce accuracy for ONE individual over another. I've ownd Dartons and they were a nice bow but accuracy was no better than the previous 25 or so bows that I'd owned before. All systems are good;)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

If you take a trip to your local drag strip you'll find 99% of the cars using carbs, they are still better and faster than injection, I know,cause I run one myself. All these guys are right, it's the guy doing the shooting, not the equipment or the cams.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

One of the major pluses of the system and for that matter twin cams allso is that they stay in tune for a long period of time , another is they give good perfomance over a wider set of draw lengths than a single . Thats the reason mathews has all those cams , diferant cams for every 1/2 inch diferance in draw length . Hybreds allso inherit the single cams draw back of cabel seperation . I just got a winers choice cabel for my mavric extreme yesterday , had it on and tune in no time , but the point is its a problem , and $45 for a cabel is just another cost , I wish they would use better cabels or fix the inherant problem . Slight bitch I know but something we've all delt with for years , and made winners choice alot richer .

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I personally think the Nitrous-X cam system is the best on the market right now. Most people have misses right and left moreso than up and down as a result of the tune of the bow and this is the best system to eliminate all cam lean and torque. Cam lean causes nock travel in the horizontal plane and everyone is so worried about the nock travel in the vertical plane (which is easier to tune out the adverse affects). From an engineering standpoint, the 3-track system is superior.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

walks with a gimp,
I concede your point the the cam will not make the ultimate difference with out the proper amount of practice. this is true with any endeavor. It is also true that the archery is also driven in part by the almighty dollar, but if this cam system had no credibility then why would so many manufactures be jumpimg on the band wagon instead of just marketing some other form gadget, i.e. built in string silencers? My piont is why would you tool up for a new cam system, changing the dynamics of a pre-existing design just to jump on the marketing wave? The cost of the change along with the marketing and advertising could far outweigh the profits to be made. With many of us it is in the small details as we have already practiced enough to recognize the difference things like this can offer to our game. Do you not agree that you personally can tell the difference between the 25+ bows you have owned. Secondarly, if you could not tell the difference between them all, why keep switching? No offence is intended here,I am just a little curious, because when I have something that works I would have a tendency to stay with it, Right?

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

The Nitrous-X system? You mean there is such a thing?;) We've got a couple of VERY frustrated guys at my club that have had S-III's on order w/ Nitrous-X cams for over 9 WEEKS! with no end in sight....... I think that is horrible for a '04 bow that was released before the first of the year, yet still isn't available 1/4 of the way into the year.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I am also agreeing the Darton has some very decent bows very much worth considering. For me it is the Tundra Extreme.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

The new Champion Scorpion, Liberty, Diablo & Eagle all come with the cam plus system this year. C/P/S---E/T/S!!! Hybrids, the best of both worlds, a blend of a single cam and a double cam, the end result, a hybrid is produced.
Champion bows are certainly on the move and I'm enjoying all the help I can get!!!

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

RobVos,
Where can I get more info on this Nitrous-X cam system?
Thanks, Mark

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I think everyone does, but what everyone is pointing is that there is no evidence to back up the claims that Hybrids are superior. If they are superior then show me their domination in tournament archery, even local tournaments, and then I will agree with you. I mean even though top pros can win with anything, surely you would see them setting themselves a part in the "average Joe" ranks in local archery tournaments, wouldn't you? Or does it all boil down to the shooter? It's funny to see so many people spend so much time worrying about something that makes so little difference. Shoot something that is comfortable and that you have confidence in and the rest will take care of itself.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

mlaubner- the Nitrous-X system is from Martin Archery. You can check their website or go to Archerytalk.com and run a search for "Nitrous". You'll find a zillion threads on it....

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

In no way am I downplaying the effectiveness or design of any of the hybrid cam systems however the answer to the above quote is very simple.

The reason that so many manufacturers are jumping on the hybrid band wagon now is because Hoyt dumped a ton of money into advertising the heck out of their version of it. Darton has had the hybrid system for how many years and yet nobody else really invested time or money into it until this point in time. It may be a more well designed cam system than either the conventional single or dual cam system but this still reminds me of when everyone followed Mathews and started licensing or producing conventional single cam systems for their bows.

My opinion only.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Mark, again just my opinion that the reason manufactures are tooling up to produce the hybrid can system is profits;) It's THE reason to be in business, not to get pats on the back. If one company is selling hybrids like hotcakes and another is struggling with it's own cam design to keep enough sales to keep the doors open,,,, what should they do next;) Bash the competition or tool up to produce a hybrid design? ANY cam system needs to be tuned in some way or another for top accuracy and performance. The string materials are getting better,, even from last year,,,, enter Brownell's ST1 ,standard on BowTech's bows. The advances in string material have more to do with consistent accuracy than which cam is on the bow. How many people are changing their factory harness out for a custom set on brand new bows,,, I read quite a few.
I'd be pleased as punch if BowTech offered a hybrid cam system next year just to try one but there's a certain draw cycle that I've made up my mind on for top speeds and energy. Accuracy must be there also or it's a waste of time.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

The evolution of Archery technology is circular not linear.

Its not so much that the "HOT THING is NEW" its more like the "NEW THING IS HOT"

To many equate Different and New with the word "Better"

Gotta give Joe Smoe a reason to dump his perfectly fine Q2 and spend more of his money on the NEW Outback..................After all it IS so much better...........right???.............LOL:D

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Right on Rack.

The major reason one cams became so popular and so highly touted by Matthews was because the one cam supposedly DID NOT get out of tune. I found out any bow, no matter what cam system will get out of tune, depending on string stretch and other minor factors. Perhaps that is why I am so resilient of resisting the hype from many ads these days.

By the way.......the worst experiences I have had with nock and tller change was with a dual cam bow, but I attribute that to the string and cable material that manufacturer used.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Gee thanks alot Rack.... I am one of those Joe Smoes who is dumping my perfectly good Q2 for an Outback!:D Man, I am actually sitting here feeling guilty about..... Ok it went away;) I still can't wait for my Outback to get here!

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I have found just the opposite to be true Cougar , Mathews who touted themselfes as leading edge technology , were the worst for staying in time , and they are still useing the same strings and cabels . A system with 3 allmost equal length strings is far more stable than one with a string twice the length of the cabel . I owned a pearson that had a single cam and three strings like hoyt did before the change and it was much better . Not trying to start trouble , just what I have experanced . 8 or 9 companies have made the switch now , and I dont think its just marketing .All the hybreds I have shot with an eliptical top excentric " not hoyt" have been easy to tune and given me what I precive to be better arrow flight , broadhead tuneing , Funny how the company that did the most advertising [hoyt] , system is much diferant than what the other companies are coming out with . I chalange all of you to shoot dartons new extreme cam and judge for yourself . They arnt perfect , but they are well designed , merlins system is very nice allso , with a littel less letoff . With the new sealed bearings martin is useing Im sure their system is butter smooth allso .

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

ijimmy, I did not make myself clear. I did not say dual cams got out of tune more easily or that Matthews past claims were true. Actually, I loved my dual cam bows. The one bow that gave me fits was a High Country Top Flite. It was constantly changing with the original string. I actually am partial to dual cams, although I currently do not have one.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, but one of the differences between the Hoyt Cam1/2 and the Darton CPS is the fact that Darton does use a round idler wheel, again to create straight and level nock travel, a smooth draw and decent valley.
Oh BTW, do Hoyt and the rest have to pay royalities to Darton for the use of their patent?

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Rack Attack, I see your point but I hope it is slightly linear...because I can't make arrowheads out of flint and don't know how to begin making a bow that will shoot worth a damn.:D:D:D<comic relief>

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Thats O.K. - I am a sucker for new "better" stuff myself:D

Hows abouts "OVALEAR"................:D;)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Rack...You are slayin' me

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

yes hybrids work, are they the best....doubt it. honestly think about it. I know too many people who have shot dual cams & single cams & never had tuning issues, speed issues, etc. In fact they all can shoot just as good with any of the cams out of the new modern bows. The dual cams are nice, the CPS & the cam .5 but I see no advantage to them over my single cam.....sorry. any new "thing" is billed as the best and the hybrid is one of them. yes it will stick around, a lot of people will use them because they are the in thing but all in all they all seem to work very well from the top bow companies. people shot 300's with old pearson & hoyt 2 cams, the mathews singles, and now the hybrids.....options are good but I am not sold on them being the best thing since sliced bread.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Mlaubner, the round idler you refer to on the top wheel is actually not round, nor is it centered around the axle. This was my findings on the '99 Darton Maverick and Yukon I owned , also on the wife's Yukon SD we still have. I believe it was designed this way to specifically control nock travel.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Then why get rid of the Mathews Q2?[&:]

Boy did I just open up a can..;)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Once again, this has been dragged around for more than a year now---do a search by typing in "hybrid" and read. Many opinions, both technical and emotional.

Make no mistake about it however, hybrids are the next step in the evolution of compound bows, simply because they have more room within their system design to move, experiment, and upgrade.

I will still stand by my previous postings also and say that the Merlin Omega Hybrid is the easiest to set up and most accurate system I have shot to date bar none---solo, twin, other hybrid, three cam, four cam, X-cam, whatever.

There are also many shooters now choosing that particular system and WINNING regularly---not just high-profile Pros either, but many have commented to me how their scores have risen since switching to the Omega. Proof is in the pudding, as they say. All "true" hybrids (round cable track idlers designed for S&LNT at all drawlengths) shoot like this---IF they have a great overall geometry incorporated that is. Shoot them all and find out which one does and which one doesn't for yourself. True hybrids exhibit dynamic balance that is superb also, something most solos simply do not have.

Merlin and others still build twins because there is still some calling for them but I see their popularity is starting to wane--- with the exception of the new Nitrous X and Wedel cams but even those will only be hot for a year or so IMHO because they do not offer S&LNT and can have timing issues. Much like Hoyt has others too have totally scrapped their conventional solos in favor of the hybrid for this year. I see a growing trend within the industry and soon I predict EVERY company (except for maybe Mathews, they cannot without wearing some serious egg[8D]) will be offering one of some sort. There is certainly room for all three designs, but of the three, I'm going to pick the one that has the best overall attributes and I think most others will also once they "come around". So based on that I think we'll probably see all three systems for a couple of more years by many manufacturers until archers do "come around" to enhance marketing and keep sales high.

Some people simply do not like change either, even if it is in fact technically sound--- I'm that way on certain things too, so we're all guilty of that to some extent;)---heck, we can all shoot deer and other with recurves and many of us have in fact done so long before the first compounds were built, but that doesn't mean that todays' bows do not do it easier and smoother and with more efficiency than either of those previous offerings. This gradual advancement is called evolution, and IMHO the hybrid design is just the next logical step forward because it combines the best qualities of both twins and solos, yet eliminates alot of their fallicies at the same time. I personally find many people are afraid of them much like they were when the conventional solos were first introduced---simply because they really do not understand them. My best advice is to try them--- then decide what best suits you. But please do not overlook them because you may be missing out if you do. ;)Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Well put pinwheel , the guys who dont try one , and deside for themselves , are only robbing from themselves .

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

It would be interesting and most informative if there was a way to quantify the differences between the hybrids and the other systems. I may be in the minority here, but I don't doubt that there are some advantages to the hybrids beyond just selling more bows due to a different type of cam system. The question is what exactly are the advantages, and how much of a difference do they actually make? [&o]

Maybe you could take several bows of all 3 cam systems and rig them with various string materials from original Fast Flite to Ultracam and subject them to extreme temperature and moisture changes to check tuning stability.

Maybe you could take several guys ranging in experience and see how long it would take them to get a decent to good tune with a few singles, duals, and hybrids.

Maybe you could have more experienced techs tune, or attempt to tune the 3 cam systems with arrows of various spines to check for spine tolerance.

Maybe you could assemble many shooters of various abilities to check their accuracy with various bows with the 3 cam systems, providing the fit was carefully checked for each bow/shooter combination. I would volunteer to be one of the fair to middlin' shooters if such a test is ever organized.[8D]

The continual debate over the advantages and disadvantages of the cam systems does keep the message boards from becoming the message boreds from time to time. I personally have had two hybrids that shot well, but not really better (enough that I could really tell) than the twins that I like. I have had more trouble with singles "throwing shots" than twins, but then reading CBM's post about how his Outback is shooting with the lowly "Whacking Basket" (not my term) for an arrow rest, I think most people (at least the ones who lack the ability to consistently hit a dime at 40 yards) have to wonder how much of a difference it all really makes.;)

Wouldn't a hybrid system that uses a split cable system with no cable guard be the ultimate system? I know Martin has a split cable single all designed.:)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

A Hybrid "shoot-through" or "X" system would be the same as any of the twin cam versions---good for some, not so good for others.

Why?

Because people are individuals, and all have differing statures and grips with differing amounts of sidetorque. While the "X" system and various shoot-throughs may indeed require less maintenence because they are "balanced" and on paper they look superb, they also have a more neutral geometry. This is good for some people, but we've found that more often than not people generally impart sidetorque into their grip from whatever side they are grabbing the bow, and a cableguard creates "offsetting" torque to compensate for this. So for some, this "balances" the system better for them with less movement of the bow during the dynamic shot sequence. For others, they feel that having a system without the offsetting torque works better for them....6 of one, half-dozen of the other. That is why you see Pro Staff from Martin, Merlin, Bowman, and Alternative split right down the middle on this---some of the staff members shoot the cableguards, and others shoot the shoot-thru or X systems, and each prefer what they shoot to the other.

As far as testing goes, I think you will see more "public" testing of hybrids as time goes on, but make no mistake that testing has already been done in manufacturers' R&D depts, and that is why you are now seeing the influx of hybrids coming to market. Solos are still holding their own and hybrids are still not widely accepted and hugely popular just yet, so I have to disagree a bit with the "going with the money"--if anything many are still selling solos to ride out the last waves of the previous money maker before putting full emphasis on hybrids.... Makes you wonder tho how good they(hybrids) really are when mega-companies like Hoyt have enough confidence to scrap BOTH twins and solos and really stick their neck out doing so---they could've lost a fortune (at least, maybe everything) if it went down the tubes---but they didn't, and by the growng recognition and acceptance of the hybrid design throughout the industry they have effectively created something Darton couldn't by itself--- the "next step forward". JMHO, Pinwheel 12

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

The one thing I found I liked about the darton was the "feel" of the draw and let down.I really never cared for the harsh let down and short valley of many single cams.Sure you can make em all shoot good.The darton also had a lot more built in draw length adjustment.But now I'm shooting a bow with no cams,so what do I know:) But you are right you gotta re invent the wheel er cam every now and then to sell more bows.


CB

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

It's a pretty well known fact that any bow will put arrows in the same hole when fired from a machine. It's also a well known fact that this changes when the human factor is inserted. The forgiving nature of a particular bow is more dependent on overall design (riser, brace height, grip), as opposed to cam system, IMO. Some bows, by virtue of design, are a real bear to tune and shoot. Others are not. And it's not the cam, or cams, on them that makes it that way. Sure Hoyt took a huge chance with the cam .5. But they have a huge, faithful following. Hoyt also advertised the cam .5 everywhere, something Darton didn't do nearly as much. So now the road has been paved for the others to follow. Hybrids may be the next great cam system, but I don't think they'll be the death of all others.