RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Though I do agree that it was a gamble I must also admit that I cannot really think of any other company that could have probably pulled it off simply because of that "faithful following". Mathews maybe as they do have a loyal following but then again they would be shooting themselves in the foot. Hoyt is respected not only for quality designs but also innovativeness with their devotion to TEC risers and split limbs. They were probably the only company "in the right place and at the right time" to make such a move....again, at least in my opinion.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Since these hybrid cams are "really" a one cam design with a tricked out idler, Mathews might be able to save face if they introduce one by selling us on the idea that they still produce "solo" cam designs with a "new and improved" idler wheel!;)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

pdq5oh


I do agree with your analogy of forgiveness but highly disaree with your analogy that the cam doesn't affect forgiveness.Have you ever heard of creep tuning? This is just tuning in forgiveness and it has everything to do with cams and there design.First of all it isn't even a possibility with a 1 cam bow.A 2 cam bow is capable of this but slight string and/or cable stretching changes it.So now we have the hybrid that will creep tune,basically out of the box and will not change with slight cable stretching.Also a hybrid and a 2 cam will have the string running vertically instead of at an angle and this enables the string to move forward without the side to side movement found in most 1 cam bows.There again,forgiveness.

A hybrid will, in most hands provide better balance,there again,better balance means more forgiving or shootable or however you want to put it.Yes,you can achieve balance with other cams but usually some tiller adjustments need to be made or weight needs to be added.A hybrid basically offers it right out of the box.


I also feel that a smoother transition into the valley will provide a more forgiving shot because the transition out of the valley isn't as harsh.This should provide smoother and more consistant arrow flight.There again,yes,tuning will eliminate some of this,but a hybrid is already half way there.Level nock travel is also a consideration in this department.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Totaly agree TFOX , and one I will add , Most if not all single cam bows have a big , read heavy cam on the bottom limb , and a small read light top cam , creating an imbalance on the dynamic shot . A hybred bow or a dual cam bow has two cams that are very close in size shape and weight , letting the limbs work in harmony .

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Huh?

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

am I missing something or is the top "cam" on a hybrid really not a cam at all,rather just an idler wheel with 2 tracks?

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

mlaubner

It is HALF of a cam.;):D

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Why does Darton call their system a single cam system, while Hoyt calls theirs a cam and 1/2 system. Didn't hoyt "borrow" this system from Darton?
Please explain the 1/2 cam to me, I must be a little slow out of the gate, but the cam 1/2 system uses 1 cable and 1 string, right? so in essence a single cam design with a fancy marketing term, right?

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I like to refer to it as 2 cams with a 1 cam cable system.That is about as simple as I can put it.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Thanks TFOX...you da' man;)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

The cam 1/2 uses 2 cables and 1 string.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Wrong , 2 cabels , one string , only one of the cabels is split . The top wheel on all hybreds [except hoyts] Has a half round tract to it , while the string rides on a cam matched to the bottom cam .

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I am not familiar enough with the Hoyt bows and take your word for it.
The Darton system, however uses only one cable, as I am looking at it right now in their 2004 catalog.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Straight from dartons tuning instructions , Bowstring , Power cabel , Control cabel . Not trying to be confrotational , just trying to relay info that is as close to fact as my biased opinions can be .;)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Damn picture making a fool out of me....like it takes a picture for that, I am good at that all on my own[8D]

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

ijimmy, is it possible what they are calling a power cable is really just 1/2 of their string? I just keep looking at the picture trying to figure it out. The reason I ask is because it only shows one yoke.
And BTW, which way are you biased?

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I probably will just wind up confusing someone, but here is MY perspective on the Hoyt vs. Darton systems - Hoyt's Cam & 1/2 is a hybrid dual cam and the Darton/Merlin system is a hybrid single cam. Both are cabled the EXACT same way. However, the cable track on the "idler" of the Hoyt is cam shaped, where as the same track on the Darton/Merlin cam is round. The string track on both systems matches the shape of the lower cam. IMHO, the ATA should classify hybrids into two categories, the hybrid-dual and the hybrid-single. That could end some confusion and perhaps provide a little 'incentive' for the two camps to outdo the other in terms of cam performance.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Good anology Olink , the two systems are vastly diferant . Mlauber , the pictures dont do it justice , you got to hold one in your hands , and see where the cabels are tyed off on the cams .

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

mlaubner,
I believe you are only seeing one yoke because the control cable slaves the rotation of the bottom cam to the top cam, not to the limb. I will wait for an expert to step in here, but I believe this to be the case. I believe the power cable is the more traditional one, which is tied to the opposite limb. Again, expert insert correction here.

JMAC

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I expected that my statement would draw a response.
TFOX, yes I know what creep tuning is, though I don't bother. So it's a tuning option when two cams are present, not the cams themselves that are more forgiving. IMO, creeping is more prevalent with two cams than one due to a less definable (solid) wall. Some people shoot dual cam bows "out of the valley" for this very reason.
TFOX:
Why not in all hands?
TFOX:
A tuning option.
TFOX:
I feel this is more product of width of the valley, and percentage of let off. A narrow valley, with low let off, will have less transition when shot. Another tuning option on some cams, by design on others.
ijimmy:
I assume you meant "perceived" to be better.... You kinda lost me here. Do you mean to say you actually got tighter groups, shooting darts? Or it "appears" you got tighter groups, shooting darts?

A person needs decent, repeatable form to get consistent shot placement. This may be better achieved by some cams when a bow goes out of tune but, continuing to shoot an out of tune bow is not something smart archers do. BTW, I heard Mathews is coming out with an innovative variation of the hybrid cam. It's called the "inbred cam". :D:D

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Creep tuning is a tuning option,you are right but does make a 2 cam and a hybrid more forgiving,no getting around that.If the forgiveness is achieved through a tuning process or an inherant forgiveness factor,the fact still remains,it is more forgiving.I have found my cam 1/2 bows to be creep tuned right out of the box,so with them,it is more of a built in forgiveness factor.



The reason I say in most hands is we all like a different feel and some may not actually like the balnce,even though it is in theory,more balanced.


A hybrid can be tuned and still not be in time,this is the great thing about them and when those cables and strings stretch,they are still tuned.The reason I ever mess with my cables is when the feel of the wall changes.I actually have my top cam a little behind the bottom and this gives me that little valley that I like.


To me this is the real advantage to the hybrid system,they are extremely tunable to the archers needs and extremely easy to set up and still shoot awesome,however you choose to set the cams.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Oh yeah,maybe the inbred cam is the only way for Mathews to have there own hybrid.We all know they invented it.[8D]

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Pdq , they had to give me 1/2 a credit in english to get rid of me in high school , My spelling is BAD . Yes I ment "perceived" ,it was easyer for me to get a good tune and broadhead tuning was easyer and led to tighter groups than I was getting with most other single cams with broadhead equiped arrows .

Ps. The original poster [somewhere way back in the begining of this thread] implied that bowtech was producing a hybred camed bow , if they are its news to me ?

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I get real worried when I hear how tuneable a system is. It's like golf, there are people who have "played" for years, and never actualy played a single round of golf. They are working on their swing, or getting the best drive of the group per round, whatever. I'm only interested in shooting my bow. After 25 years I wish I never had to touch them at all. SO far I seem to shoot fine by simply ingnoring my mathews as it came form the box. That's not really a mathews plug, if I owned another brand, I would ignor it too.

Since half the time I shoot fingers, I have to say level nock flight always seemed like a joke to me. Some of the results with the fury cams are so positive relative to broadhead use that I may need to reconsider. Still that relates only to systems that are 3D perfect, not half-measures.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I would be interested in hearing one of the "pros" comment on the differences between a single cam that has a split string attached to a round idler and a hybrid system that again, from my perspective, has a split string connected to a unround idler?

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I'll second that motion:)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Nothing as as good as a 3 track X cam system!
You would see the light if you shot one.
No cam lean, perfect alignment with no uneven wear on components, and smoother pulling.
Some of us have seen the light like Black Frog, Robvos and myself.
Others will sooner or later. ;)


Sag.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I just put down the latest issue of Deer and Deer Hunting and have seen two new ads for hybrid cam offerings from both AR and Browning...I am sure others will follow Darton's lead. This MUST be the wave of the future. The winds of change ARE blowing.
I hope I can avoid the tornado!;)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Any drawbacks to this system? How about from a practical perspective?

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I know the reason I haven't tried one. I believe with the shoot through systems, one cable is closer to your bow arm. Personally, I will not use anything that increases the chance of the string hitting my heavy hunting jacket. They appear to be more suited for target shooters or hunters who never wear heavy clothing.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

The only drawback to a 3-track system is without good form and/or bow fit, some people will get a little cable contact. However, with a properly fit bow and good form, this is usually not an issue. Another thing is, if you do get the contact , it is much less detrimental than actual string contact (it will actually prevent you from getting string contact).

Shooting a split system bow was the best thing I did to improve my shooting form and develop a proper grip. When I first started, it was a little different, but afterward it has been totally positive.

The 3-track system is the most balances system out there, and I reiterate, the nock travel in the horizontal plane is not a factor as it is with all other systems (and you can't do very much about it). I still feel this nock travel in the horizontal plane is more detrimental to the shot than the hyped straight and level in the vertical plane.

3-tracks are the way to go!

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Sag-- If I am not mistaken, Black Frog is shooting his exceptional scores this year with an Omega HYBRID system.

Eventually you and Rob will come around too.:D;)

Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Pinwheel,

Old friend, I am well aware of Black Frog's scores and know the Omega is accurate.
But the Omega system still does not address cam lean, plus uneven wear and stress on components and limbs like a 3 track.
You, yourself, use to extoll these same virtues when talking of the Merlin shoot thru system. Remember ? ;)
I believe, Black Frog would prefer a Merlin X cam too if it were available.
I don't see why Merlin cannot build the X cam for guys who want one.
Afterall, they practically promised to build one almost 2 years ago and backed out.
Their bows are perfect for an X cam system, imo.
With their great craftsmanship and shootability, the X cam can only make them better.
It's a big plus with no minuses!
Yes, I will come around when Merlin decides to get smart and build my 3 track. :D
If you're happy with your Omega cams old friend, more power to you.
But, I believe, even you would shoot the Merlin X cam if they made one.
You would come around! [8D] :D


Sag.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Now I’m even getting pulled into this! [8D]

It’s true that I’ve shot my best scores in my life the past 4 months or so using my little Quest35 equipped with Omega cams. Several 60X games, a State title, a NFAA Sectional title, and tied for 4th highest Male FS score at the NFAA Nationals. Awesome little bow.

Before I took the leap to Merlins several years (3? 4?) ago, I had been extremely happy owning three different Dartons with the CPS cams, so hybrids are nothing new to me.

The last couple of years I had been shooting a Supernova with Merlin’s round wheel “T-Wheels” and a shoot-through harness. Never had the scores as high as I did until I switched to my Quest35 for target shooting. Now believe me, more than anyone I’ve been questioning myself if my improvement in scores was due to the difference in cam systems? Arrow rest? Different grip? Different back wall solidness? Maybe a mixture of some factors? Honestly, I don’t know- but I’m in the process of trying to determine why that is…. Keep in mind that while I was doing quite well with the Omega system, another Merlin shooter, Grant Schleusner, was winning BHFS at Vegas, a State title, a NFAA Sectional title, and 2nd place at the NFAA Nationals with Merlin’s Rapid2 twin cam with a shoot through harness.

I’m going to spend some devoted time over the next few months comparing lots of things- grips, cams, rests, bows, shoot throughs, cable guards, and all sorts of combinations. I do wish Merlin made a three track- if they did, I would own one. If they did, Merlin would have every cam option covered for the archery consumer. I’ve mentioned on the boards a few times that I wouldn’t have a three track system for my style of hunting. I do a lot of cold weather outings and don’t want to worry about having a cable closer to my bulky coat than the string already is. And for hunting I wouldn’t own a bow with less than 7-7.5” of brace height either for the same concerns. But a three track for target shooting may be another story……

That said, I’m expecting a new Merlin w/ Omegas late this week or early next week (right, PW12? ;)) This one will be a little more appropriate for target shooting and will allow me to start figuring out what works the best for me and my style of shooting. Should be a fun summer!

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Sag-

As stated many times, there are several reasons why Merlin decided not to do the 3 track, and the ongoing evolution of cam design and the direction it is progressing was a big part of that decision.(sorry![:o];) ) Maybe if the popularity of them grows to where we will sell enough to warrant bringing them out, maybe we will. But I'm not so sure I see this happening... in fact I see the industry moving in another direction to be honest so I dunno, we may do one at some point for you guys, we'll see. As far as myself touting them, sure, they are still a great system--there is just something better (IMHO) available now.;)

Black Frog--

YES, you will receive your bow later this week. It is SWEET! (Max 3000 Omega, blue fade with gold hardware---this blue is really nice, wanted this one for myself!;)) I think it's going out today if I remember correctly---been busy so it's hard to remember who's and what's, but I remember this is a Purrrty one! LOL.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

I talked with Chris Jones in person when they first debuted the Omega cam system at the ATA last year. At that time we discussed the various systems that they had and he was of the opinion that a dual cam was still better.

Hoyt pushed the industry toward the hybrid cam, just like Mathews pushed it toward the single cam. The other manufactures have to follow suite with the big marketing machines. Gotta give the people what they have been convinced they want.:D

I may have to get some Nitrous-X cams for my Supernova -- that would be great!! Right down the middle.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Chris and Ben both feel the Omega is the next step forward also, especially now that it has been upgraded since those first generation ones from the beginning of last year.(all of the original first ones were recalled at Merlins' expense and replaced) I was in the booth and on the shooting lane THIS year at the ATA along with Chris, Ben, Larry Wise, My wife, and other staff members. (got to meet you also Rob) We had a great time discussing things in-depth technically throughout the weekend and still do very frequently now that I am running Merlin in the USA.

The twins are a nice system---I touted them heavily for many years, even through the solocam days. in fact I was one of only a few to carry the torch when everyone was loving solos. Great system.

But as I stated, I NOW personally believe, along with many other manufacturers and techs, that this "new" system simplifies things and combines the best attributes of both systems all into one, without their fallicies.

Len has been touting these systems since Darton came out with them, and he was right IMHO. (even though they have been through many generations since their beginnings ;)) I am big enough to say I was wrong about hybrids initially when I placed them into the same category as solos--- and Len yes-- you definately were correct. ;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

<----------- is biting his tongue[:-]

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

<-------so is he!:D

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Black Frog,

If it wasn't you it would be someone else so it might as well be you. LOL

Rob,

Yeah, got to give the sheep what they want. ;)

Pinwheel,

I know how it goes. ;)


Sag.