RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Rack...You are slayin' me

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

yes hybrids work, are they the best....doubt it. honestly think about it. I know too many people who have shot dual cams & single cams & never had tuning issues, speed issues, etc. In fact they all can shoot just as good with any of the cams out of the new modern bows. The dual cams are nice, the CPS & the cam .5 but I see no advantage to them over my single cam.....sorry. any new "thing" is billed as the best and the hybrid is one of them. yes it will stick around, a lot of people will use them because they are the in thing but all in all they all seem to work very well from the top bow companies. people shot 300's with old pearson & hoyt 2 cams, the mathews singles, and now the hybrids.....options are good but I am not sold on them being the best thing since sliced bread.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Mlaubner, the round idler you refer to on the top wheel is actually not round, nor is it centered around the axle. This was my findings on the '99 Darton Maverick and Yukon I owned , also on the wife's Yukon SD we still have. I believe it was designed this way to specifically control nock travel.

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Then why get rid of the Mathews Q2?[&:]

Boy did I just open up a can..;)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Once again, this has been dragged around for more than a year now---do a search by typing in "hybrid" and read. Many opinions, both technical and emotional.

Make no mistake about it however, hybrids are the next step in the evolution of compound bows, simply because they have more room within their system design to move, experiment, and upgrade.

I will still stand by my previous postings also and say that the Merlin Omega Hybrid is the easiest to set up and most accurate system I have shot to date bar none---solo, twin, other hybrid, three cam, four cam, X-cam, whatever.

There are also many shooters now choosing that particular system and WINNING regularly---not just high-profile Pros either, but many have commented to me how their scores have risen since switching to the Omega. Proof is in the pudding, as they say. All "true" hybrids (round cable track idlers designed for S&LNT at all drawlengths) shoot like this---IF they have a great overall geometry incorporated that is. Shoot them all and find out which one does and which one doesn't for yourself. True hybrids exhibit dynamic balance that is superb also, something most solos simply do not have.

Merlin and others still build twins because there is still some calling for them but I see their popularity is starting to wane--- with the exception of the new Nitrous X and Wedel cams but even those will only be hot for a year or so IMHO because they do not offer S&LNT and can have timing issues. Much like Hoyt has others too have totally scrapped their conventional solos in favor of the hybrid for this year. I see a growing trend within the industry and soon I predict EVERY company (except for maybe Mathews, they cannot without wearing some serious egg[8D]) will be offering one of some sort. There is certainly room for all three designs, but of the three, I'm going to pick the one that has the best overall attributes and I think most others will also once they "come around". So based on that I think we'll probably see all three systems for a couple of more years by many manufacturers until archers do "come around" to enhance marketing and keep sales high.

Some people simply do not like change either, even if it is in fact technically sound--- I'm that way on certain things too, so we're all guilty of that to some extent;)---heck, we can all shoot deer and other with recurves and many of us have in fact done so long before the first compounds were built, but that doesn't mean that todays' bows do not do it easier and smoother and with more efficiency than either of those previous offerings. This gradual advancement is called evolution, and IMHO the hybrid design is just the next logical step forward because it combines the best qualities of both twins and solos, yet eliminates alot of their fallicies at the same time. I personally find many people are afraid of them much like they were when the conventional solos were first introduced---simply because they really do not understand them. My best advice is to try them--- then decide what best suits you. But please do not overlook them because you may be missing out if you do. ;)Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

Well put pinwheel , the guys who dont try one , and deside for themselves , are only robbing from themselves .

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

It would be interesting and most informative if there was a way to quantify the differences between the hybrids and the other systems. I may be in the minority here, but I don't doubt that there are some advantages to the hybrids beyond just selling more bows due to a different type of cam system. The question is what exactly are the advantages, and how much of a difference do they actually make? [&o]

Maybe you could take several bows of all 3 cam systems and rig them with various string materials from original Fast Flite to Ultracam and subject them to extreme temperature and moisture changes to check tuning stability.

Maybe you could take several guys ranging in experience and see how long it would take them to get a decent to good tune with a few singles, duals, and hybrids.

Maybe you could have more experienced techs tune, or attempt to tune the 3 cam systems with arrows of various spines to check for spine tolerance.

Maybe you could assemble many shooters of various abilities to check their accuracy with various bows with the 3 cam systems, providing the fit was carefully checked for each bow/shooter combination. I would volunteer to be one of the fair to middlin' shooters if such a test is ever organized.[8D]

The continual debate over the advantages and disadvantages of the cam systems does keep the message boards from becoming the message boreds from time to time. I personally have had two hybrids that shot well, but not really better (enough that I could really tell) than the twins that I like. I have had more trouble with singles "throwing shots" than twins, but then reading CBM's post about how his Outback is shooting with the lowly "Whacking Basket" (not my term) for an arrow rest, I think most people (at least the ones who lack the ability to consistently hit a dime at 40 yards) have to wonder how much of a difference it all really makes.;)

Wouldn't a hybrid system that uses a split cable system with no cable guard be the ultimate system? I know Martin has a split cable single all designed.:)

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

A Hybrid "shoot-through" or "X" system would be the same as any of the twin cam versions---good for some, not so good for others.

Why?

Because people are individuals, and all have differing statures and grips with differing amounts of sidetorque. While the "X" system and various shoot-throughs may indeed require less maintenence because they are "balanced" and on paper they look superb, they also have a more neutral geometry. This is good for some people, but we've found that more often than not people generally impart sidetorque into their grip from whatever side they are grabbing the bow, and a cableguard creates "offsetting" torque to compensate for this. So for some, this "balances" the system better for them with less movement of the bow during the dynamic shot sequence. For others, they feel that having a system without the offsetting torque works better for them....6 of one, half-dozen of the other. That is why you see Pro Staff from Martin, Merlin, Bowman, and Alternative split right down the middle on this---some of the staff members shoot the cableguards, and others shoot the shoot-thru or X systems, and each prefer what they shoot to the other.

As far as testing goes, I think you will see more "public" testing of hybrids as time goes on, but make no mistake that testing has already been done in manufacturers' R&D depts, and that is why you are now seeing the influx of hybrids coming to market. Solos are still holding their own and hybrids are still not widely accepted and hugely popular just yet, so I have to disagree a bit with the "going with the money"--if anything many are still selling solos to ride out the last waves of the previous money maker before putting full emphasis on hybrids.... Makes you wonder tho how good they(hybrids) really are when mega-companies like Hoyt have enough confidence to scrap BOTH twins and solos and really stick their neck out doing so---they could've lost a fortune (at least, maybe everything) if it went down the tubes---but they didn't, and by the growng recognition and acceptance of the hybrid design throughout the industry they have effectively created something Darton couldn't by itself--- the "next step forward". JMHO, Pinwheel 12

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

The one thing I found I liked about the darton was the "feel" of the draw and let down.I really never cared for the harsh let down and short valley of many single cams.Sure you can make em all shoot good.The darton also had a lot more built in draw length adjustment.But now I'm shooting a bow with no cams,so what do I know:) But you are right you gotta re invent the wheel er cam every now and then to sell more bows.


CB

RE: "Hybrid cams"= "winds of change blowing"
 

It's a pretty well known fact that any bow will put arrows in the same hole when fired from a machine. It's also a well known fact that this changes when the human factor is inserted. The forgiving nature of a particular bow is more dependent on overall design (riser, brace height, grip), as opposed to cam system, IMO. Some bows, by virtue of design, are a real bear to tune and shoot. Others are not. And it's not the cam, or cams, on them that makes it that way. Sure Hoyt took a huge chance with the cam .5. But they have a huge, faithful following. Hoyt also advertised the cam .5 everywhere, something Darton didn't do nearly as much. So now the road has been paved for the others to follow. Hybrids may be the next great cam system, but I don't think they'll be the death of all others.