Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

And fondled the Justice, Mighty Mite and "Liberty (?)".

Stopped buy a "local" shop an hour away, had some time to kill prior to an appointment. Racks upon racks of new Mathews bows. I pulled one off the shelf, though it had to be an LX or something, cause it seemed much longer than my 30.5" ATA Diamond Hornet. Lo and behold, it was an outback. The long riser really gives the impression that the bow is much longer ATA than it really is.

Initial impression- Camo is really nice, I tend to prefer more browns than greens, and this one was nice. Finish was excellent, no visible flaws, and the machining seemed top notch. I really liked the look of the bow, as I'm one of those freaks who thinks Parallel limb bows with long risers are purdy...

I drew it back several times, felt very smooooth. I've always been a big grip kind of guy, and really liked the feel of the grip on this bow. Guy came up, I asked him if I could shoot it, he smiled and said "ok".

First shot and I got an idea of what everyone is talking about with the trend towards quiet, no handshock vibration free just sits in your hand bows. Simply amazing. FDC was silky smooth, but as reported before, the bow has no effective valley whatsoever. Although the bow had no sight installed, it held very steady and felt like it would be a dream to aim with.

I flung a few, each feeling as good as the first, and asked the guy what the bow was set on. He said 62#. I noticed the arrows were CE game tracker terminator selects, seemed full length, so most probably they weighed around 500 grains. No wonder the bow was quiet, but I tend to think the bow would be quiet at IBO regardless.

I asked him to crank it up to 70#, and shot a few this way. Still relatively easy to draw, very smooth, but set on 80% let off without the valley, you better be conscious of back tension or it wants to seriously take off.

All in all, while I wish the bow had more valley, I could see myself being very happy shooting something as pleasant to shoot as the Outback is.

I told the guy I had a few more bows I was interested in checking out, including Bowtechs new line up. He got this serious look on his face, and said "I don't like to talk about other companies, but all bowtechs talk about is speed, and Mathews is faster. Mathews are much better bows that Bowtech". :(

Appointment took longer than expected, and racing my way home I decided to swing by another shop that is rarely open that is carrying Bowtech this year. I walked/ran in, asked if they had a Justice, Liberty and a Patriot. Guy thought they had all, and handed me his Justice.

Initially, I was expecting a more Brown dominant camo pattern. In real life they seem to be more green. Camo was very nice, certainly wouldn't be a deal killer :) Grip was not the camo laminate (which I would DEMAND), and was quite a bit thinner than the Mathews grip. Bow seemed thinner and smaller overall than the Outback, but again the long riser and parallel limbs made the Justice appear much longer than the ATA spec states.

Bow drew very smooth, held easy. The more than ample valley was readily apparent. The guy had it set on high let off, and it almost seemed as if I could let go of the string and the bow would stay drawn :) Really enjoyed the valley. I would prefer a thicker/bigger grip, but as I said before, I'm a freak, and I could always address this aftermarket if I had to. I was really short on time, so didn't even ask to shoot it. Since it was his personal bow and all tuned up and ready to go, I didn't ask him to crank it up to 70# so I could feel the FDC.

While I was checking the Justice out, he and his partner were having discussion as to which bow they apparently sold, the Liberty of the Patriot SC. He eventually handed me a bow, and said it was the Liberty, set on 70#s. The brace jumped out at me as being noticeably shorter than the Justice. I started to draw it, and was shocked, it was MUCH tougher to pull than the Justice. MUCH tougher. Draw was smooth, no big humps, but it hit early and carried through quite a ways back. Nothing unmanageble, but my shoulder was set for a Justice like experience, and this was definitely different. Other than that, everything stated above about the Justice pretty much applied to this bow.

Guy came in from the next room, to show me his mighty mite. Very nice bow, but the 1" less brace height made the bow seem much shorter ATA than the Justice. Funny how our mind plays tricks on us.

I had to hit the road, and told them I'd be back some day soon to shoot them. As I was driving home, I convinced myself that the bow they handed me as the Liberty HAD to be the SC Patriot. I was in such a hurry, I didn't even look at the name on the limb, nor the size of the idler.
In any event, I plan a return trip soon to fling some arrows.

Now if I could only find a Merlin dealer... :)

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

Rangeball, I am unable to shoot for a few weeks, but my local shop has some new Outbacks in. When I told him 65% letoff was the max for me........he told me I would not like it. Is the valley really that narrow?

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

Cougar, for all practical purposes, it does not exist... :)

Seriously, just when the thing let's off you hit the wall. No creeping allowed...

I also said I'd be interested in shooting it at 65%, and was promptly told P&Y changed so I didn't have to. I said I could give a rat's a, tail end, that 65% feels better to me. He just looked bewildered.

I suspect the info you got was entirely correct...

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

Thought I'd take the E-bay approach to drum up some more views/responses...

:D

Just for curiousity, is there any way to increase the valley on the outback, like letting the cam over-rotate a bit or so? What would this do to performance?

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

With a little tweaking I've got a much better valley on my Outback without sacrificing speed or much draw length. I put a smaller rubber on the draw stop. So far I'm liking it better.

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

tm, care to expand on exactly what you did and how much valley you gained?

I'd have to hunt some of those up. All I have on hand are the extra-large ones...

:D

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

Rangeball, your experience differs from what I felt. I hope I didn't draw and shoot a fluke smooth patriot when I decided to order one.

I was pulling back a Patriot at ~65# and liking the way it felt when I grabbed a Justice that had a few turns out on it and drew it back, it wasn't the oh-so smooth experience I was expecting. I commented about it and they guy selling the bows said " ya, I'm not too sure what all they hype is about".

They didn't have any Liberties in stock and after shooting the Patriot set a little over ~62# I decided it was the bow for me, but then again- I'm only going to be pulling 62-64#.

I did draw a couple of outbacks, but I don't even know why I picked them up, I'm not currently in a Mathews mood.

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

I definitely think you were drawing the Pat SC and not the Liberty. There is a noticeable difference between the Infinity and Freedom cams. My MM VFT at 70 lbs feels quite a bit different than my Liberty at 70 lbs...;)

As for it being extremely uneasy to handle (which is sort of what I took from what you related)....at over 70 lbs I would tend to agree with you a bit. The infinity cam has a stiff draw cycle. Couple that with a heavy draw weight and an inch shorter brace height and you will have an entirely different experience when going from the Justice to the Pat SC.

I am curious though as to why you thought the brace height on the MM was an inch shorter than the Justice. There is only a quarter inch difference on the two bows I handled recently.

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

No Outback for me then Range, I don't like surprises.

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

My memory was bad, you are right, BH spec is only 1/4" apart on the two. I didn't have them side by side, but for some reason, my initial impression of the MM was that it had a shorter brace. Just what jumped out at me, I didn't consciously remember that it was, just struck me as so...

I'm certain the bow was an SC Pat and not a Liberty. At 70#, it wasn't too much to handle, just not what I was geared up for at the moment. After I drew it back a few more times, it was noticeably smoother than my Hornet, but required every bit of the effort.

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

I shot the Patriot side by side with a machete at the same #ege (theres a new word).
The patriot was a tad (read being nice) smoother on the draw, but what happended after the shot was not even comparable. BUT the BT has all the rubber dohickies and the machete didn't.

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

I love the smooth feel of the JUstice VFT and you can adjust valley any way you wish.

RE: Shot the Outback...
 

I have the Outback and also thought I would want to shoot it at 65%,but tried both 65% and 80% before I ordered one.Thank God I did,65% felt like a whole different bow,wanted to take of right out of my hand,the 80% feels awsome,but still keeps you honest as far as creeping.Definately suggest you shoot one both ways to determine what feels best for you,but my bet is on 80%

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Now if I could only find a Merlin dealer...

Rangeball,

Call or E-Mail Kevin (Pinwheel 12) @ Merlin Archery
He is very informative and goes the extra mile in helping find the right bow for you

After test shooting a Merlin Max Extreme, My first word was "Unbelievable". I shot this bow (keeping my eyes closed)with no stabilizer or sting silencers, and, yes, all I could say was, "Unbelievable".

I shot this bow last week, after just recouperating from an elbow replacement. I am looking for something more forgiving and less weight than my 8 year old PSE
SLR-1000 @ 70#/28"draw. I have shot other bows but so far this bow fits everything I am looking for in a hunting bow.

I'm a hunter,I don't shoot 3D.
I shoot with an open grip and no sling. Even flinging many different size & weight arrows, the Max Extreme (@ 59#s & 28" draw) did not jump out of my hands
No recoil, No shock, No Noise ! SMOOOOTH !!!!!

What an unbelievable bow.

.

You won't be disappointed. Just search other archery sites and you won't find one Merlin Owner complaining about their bow or the service they received.

"Thanks for the review -bohunt, and it was sincerely nice to meet you and discuss the bows.

For anyone interested in viewing the bows, go to www.merlin-bows.co.uk They are built in England, but we now have the Merlin USA office right here and all sales along with an warranty issues that may arise are dealt with swiftly on 'this side of the pond'. Watch for upcoming technical reviews and head-to-head tests of the Max-Xtreme in various archery publications in the coming weeks and months also--it's a sleeper, and many other manufactuers are going to be very surprised I think. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12"

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

DaveC,

I prefer #age....:D

Would you care to comment more on your statement regarding what happened "after the shot"? I, for one, would appreciate it.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

-bo, thanks for your input. The Max Extreme is definitely a bow I'm interested in. I've discussed it extensively with Kevin, and am still waiting for him to post some sort of review about it (hint hint if you're peeking :) ).

Unlike you, as of now there doesn't seem to be a dealer anywhere even remotely "close" to me. I wish I could shoot one, like you did.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

They were the same #age as seen from the proshops eyes. I asked for 62# each and he supposedly tweaked them to that. I took his word for it as the scale wasn't facing me.

I hope both the bows being 70#ers dropped down to ~62# each didn't alter their ease of draw or shot experience. My luck the VFT I get will be a bear to pull[:-].
I know your supposed to shoot them maxed out for best "performance" and that's why I ordered the heavy 60#er.

As far as what happened after the shot. The Machete had a lot more buzz from the string and vibration in the hand. I don't want to sound as if I'm talking it down as it was "naked" and would have been my second choice. But I didn't notice the sit in your hand and not move after the shot as I did on the Patriot. (it was btw $210 cheaper)

The more I shot them back to back- the less I shot the machete.


p.s. I was shooting my arrows at 395 grains and 400 grains.
The Patriot had a noticable speed advantage (as well it should).

Another p.s.- I know I keep saying the Patriot VFT has a Smooth draw, but you have to consider the source- I just sold my 2002 mighty (hard to pull back) mite. For some reason (in my experience) it was a bear to pull no matter what #age.
After watching the number it produced on the chrony at 63#, I wasn't quiet ready to take a 20fps loss. Hence my fondness of the Patriot over the others.
My shoulder- mostly my left- told me I had to get rid of the mighty-mite.
My 59# stalker posses no problems even after considerable shooting time. But talk about after the shot jump:), it took a leap into the grass before it got strapped!

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Dave C

I think if you shot the Machete with the "rubber dohickies" on, you'd find it as quiet and vibration free as anything on the market. At least I have.

Rangeball, tonight I shot a couple of the bows you seem interested in. The Merlin Max Extreme arrived at the local shop. They just came in and 6 of us got together with the shop owner as he set them up and we shot them side by side with other bows. The shop also sells Diamonds, so I got the opportunity to shoot it side by side with the Machete and the Gladiator.

First impressions of the Max Extreme - Heavier then the Diamonds, but very well balanced. The Merlin had a smoother draw, but was about 15 fps slower then a comparable Machete (actual measured draw lengths were with 1/4" of each other). Gladiator was even faster. The Merlin did have about 1/2" more brace height and the Machete was an inch shorter. The Max Extreme and the Machete both had cable dampeners, string leeches, identical stabilizers and the Machete had limb savers (merlin has rubber limb coverings). The six of us all rated both the Machete and the Gladiator as slightly quieter. We all thought the Merlin had slighter better balance and was completely without recoil. Recoil on the Machete was about the same, but the balance was not quite as good. A different stabilizer would probably correct this. Neither had any vibration to speak of. The Machete has a harder wall, but had a more drastic "roll-over" on the cam when dropping into the valley. They had completely different feels and I'm sure some will prefer one over the other (the six of us were split on preference of the draw cycle). I felt the biggest difference between the two bows was the $200 lower price on the Machete. Hard to ignore this bow at the price they sell for. However, I'm sure many people are going to fall in love with the Merlin and will be willing to part with the big bucks. I'm sure Merlin's carbon limbs and locking limb pockets will attract many buyers. Personally, I don't like locking limb pockets and don't keep bows long enough to wear out the limbs on even the cheapest bows, so those don't mean as much to me.

I encourage you to shoot them both and determine for yourself if the price difference is worth it to you.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Thanks Straightarrow, those are very helpful and interesting observations.

I think I'd prefer a slightly heavier bow. I really liked the mass weight of the Outback, which was extremely easy to hold steady. The 3* offset grip of the Merlin intrigues me, but for the jack and inability to return it if it's not love at first sight, I sure would like to hold, fondle and shoot one first. I'll keep my eyes open. Thanks again.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

I guess it all depends on what your looking for.
The lightness of the diamond bows are what had me intrigued in them. I've read where one of the diamond guys- Paul Pickering- commented how there bows were more geared towards bowhunting and bowhunting ranges.
If I ever shot 3-d or target I'm sure a heavier bow would be better. But for me, I like them to start at least somewhat light as they are only going to get heavier when the excessories are added to them.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

The Max Xtreme is not "heavy" by any means, just heavier than the current featherweights! (Machete for instance is 3lbs 6 oz and the Max-Xtreme is 4lb) Everyone has gone to this "lighter is better" mentality and no-one can tell me that they hold better at full draw with a much lighter bow---a heavier bow is much more stable.;)

I carry both the Diamonds and Merlins in the shop, and they are two different animals---the Diamonds are less expensive because of alot of attributes that they simply do not have when compared to the Merlin--

Carbon limbs with the highest carbon content in the industry with parabolic design and laminated limbskins on the Merlins versus standard composite limbs of the Diamonds.

Hybrid cam system with straight and level nock travel at all drawlengths versus conventional modular solocam without.

Locking, pivoting limb pockets lined with vibration-reducing membrane, versus standard bolt-on.

Adjustable carbon cableguard versus non-adjustable straight rod.

6082 Aluminum machined riser versus 6061

Soloflex premium 8125 strings and cables versus stock factory D97 or 450+

The price of admission is different certainly, but you start to see why....;)

I have also tested the Max-Xtreme versus the Machete and feel that SA is correct on most points--I agree the Machete is a bit faster, but does exhibit more recoil than the Max-Xtreme. The Machete also as noted has less brace height, and shorter ATA which will account for some of this. The Max-Xtreme is meant to be a smooth quiet hunting bow with no recoil or handshock, not designed to be a barn-burner. However even so it produces very capable speeds and is actually only 9-10FPS slower than the Machete through our chronos at the same drawlength and poundage using the same arrow. If we directly compare it to the Undertaker instead of the Machete which is much closer to the same specs as the Max-XTreme this difference drops to less than 4-5fps.

Dynamic balance is awesome on the Xtreme, and probably would be also on the Machete if it had the same cam system---conventional solo systems do not have symmetrical eccentrics on both ends of the bow such as a twin or hybrid system does, therefore dynamic balance suffers. They also can have differing limbtip travels due to this and some will "kick" at the shot. The Machete does well for a conventional solo however and will settle down nicely with correct stabilization. The Max Xtreme is dead-nuts still at the shot with great balance even without any stabilization. It only gets better when you add the goodies.

Both bows fill a different niche and as stated are two different animals that target two different clientels----and it all simply depends upon what you are looking for in a bow. Personally money is no object to me when choosing equipment because I demand only the best and will pay to get it. I sell both bows out of the shop and they both cater to their intended clientel quite well. ;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Pinwheel,

The carbon limbs sound good and I'm guessing that the type of aluminum is better or you wouldn't have mentioned it. It makes me question why the warranty is only two years with full coverage, and only 5 years with the owner paying part of the cost. Does Merlin not have the confidence to match the warranty of other bows priced over $700? So many are giving a limited lifetime warranty on their bows, even the lower priced ones. I know that lifetime is not the owners lifetime, but I have a hard time believing that all wouldn't honor it for more then two years. I'm leaning to purchasing a Merlin Max Extreme and I'm quite certain I will keep it for more then 2 years, but I would hate to have to put any more money into it, if there's a problem a few years down the road.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

SA-

Merlin is doing nothing different than Martin or Alpine or what a handful of other companies are doing with their 5 year limited warranty---in fact Martins' warranty is very closely worded to almost the same as Merlins.

Merlin stands behind their products 100%, and that is the bottom line. If say 15 years from now you had a problem with a bow that had a so-called "lifetime warranty"----do you actually believe that you would get it repaired for free or a replacement bow that will probably cost $2500 then for your $700 bow now IF it offered a "lifetime warranty"? LOL, keep dreaming--- Example---High Country made their Supreme in the early 90's and this bow was one of the most popular bows of it's time, it won everything and was a great hunting bow to boot. Now, only about 12 years later, do you realistically think you could get one repaired for free, or replaced with a new model? No. First because they no longer carry parts for them because they are "obsolete", (most companies only carry parts for 3-5 years and they love to use that word after that) and second because a "new" bow would cost more money. What they do is "pro-rate" according to age and retail value of said bow at time of sale, and then act accordingly. All companies do this, so when you get down to the meat of it your "Lifetime Warranty" is nothing more than a marketing ploy used by manufacturers. Merlin, Martin, Alpine, and others do not "blow smoke" and tell you straight, that simple. That's all. Most people do not keep their bows for more than 3-5 years as a general rule, so a "Lifetime Warranty" only applies to those who keep their bow for more than that timespan, and what with the parts not being available much after say 3 years, they are thus subject to the same type of "prorating" and are on the same page as any other company offering a 5 year limited warranty or equivalent.

Bottom line---if you trust in the quality of the company you purchase from, you will have no problems. Merlin will back their equipment and if nothing happens in two to five years under normal use, chances are nothing is going to---- and besides, you have a solid contact here in the states should you ever have problems anyway.;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Rangeball , I liked the new Bowtech line too.......but the grip was too thin for me ! I think you must have drawn something besides a Liberty also ! The Liberty had a smoother draw than the Justice or Outback to me !

Cougar Mag......the Outback comes with two cams : an adjustable 80 % or a 65% non adjustable ! I haven't shot a 65% only cam ......but the 80% has a narrow(but managable)valley.......when adjusted to 65% it has absolutely none ! I would guess that the 65% only cam has a better feel than the 80% adjusted to 65% ......but like I said.....haven't tried it out !

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

I don't understand what that means. If I trust Merlin, that doesn't mean I won't have a problem with my bow in 5 years.

Like I said, I realize it isn't an owner's lifetime that they're referring to, but I also don't believe they are all simply "blowing smoke". I know of numerous examples of great service (for free) on warranty isssues that occured many years down the road, from a few different companies.

From what I've seen, it seems to be the norm to offer the limited lifetime warranty. It is offered by Mathews, Hoyt, Parker, Archery Research, Bow Tech, PSE, Kodiak, Diamond, High Country, Champion, McPherson, and Proline, to name a few.

To me, it isn't a question of how long they keep the parts. Merlin may not keep theirs any longer. They question becomes, when they can repair it, who pays for it?

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Hey!!!! Anyone else notice that bohunt signed his post, Pinwheel 12???[:@]
Fishy!!!

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Looks to me like he was including a quote from PW12, but what do I know???

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

WWAG, anything that has my name even remotely included you think is "fishy"! LOL.

Nice try tho! Pinwheel 12

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

What!!! No 9 paragraph reply?:D[&:]

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

From what I was told on the HP cam on the Outback, there is no "65% let off " cam, let off is changed on the same cam by which peg the string is attached to. When set on the 65% let off peg, the cam loses 1/2" of draw length... and I assume what very little valley there was to begin with :(

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Range, I've looked at and drawn an Outback and at the 80% letoff setting the valley is about like my '04 Pat Dually,,, very short. I could get along with the Outback well I believe but the ATA length is too short for my draw length (29.5). It looked like a nice bow for shorter draw hunters. I'll stick with 34ish and longer;)

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Funny, I shoot right at 29" dl and prefer the shorties...

Guess it's all in what you get used to :)

I don't think the lack of valley would be a deal breaker for someone, as long as they were aware of what they were getting and shot the proper poundage to deal with it.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Nah.... not on this one...[8D]:D

But....

SA---

I've yet to see these "many free" replacements that happened many years later on down the road---I've been in the Archery retail business for many years now, and after a certain period of time it simply doesn't happen in almost all cases. Most of the companies you mentioned above have been in business less than 15 years--- in fact only TWO of them longer--- most of the others less than 10 yrs, some less than 5! Many of them are simply trying to get a foothold in the market with this "lifetime warranty" marketing gimmick, and it really doesn't matter because some I will be willing to bet will not even be here 10 years down the road--- think about that one for a second... So as stated, a "lifetime warranty" only does one good if the company is able to stay in businesss, and keeps an inventory of parts onhand for many years or is willing to replace a model with a brand new one-- and 10 years or more down the road when the cost of a new bow is $1500-2500 versus the $700 bow you bought yesterday that ain't gonna happen for FREE.

Maybe Merlin will implement the "Lifetime Warranty" for 2005, don't know yet but it has been mentioned to those who need to know now with the recent flak being tossed around. Not that it makes any difference in the actual warranty of the products because it certainly doesn't, but because so many people cannot read between the lines of the marketing hype. This is not the first time I've had to defend this, but again be aware that Merlin is not the only company that implements the 5 year warranty versus the "lifetime" either--there are more than a few companies who do as mentioned previously---companies such as Martin (who have been around many years-- 1930's I believe???) who do not look like they are going away anytime soon. Merlin has been around since the early 1970's themselves, and they too will still be here long after many of the other "rookie" companies are gone. Always have to take that type of thing into account as well when choosing equipment.. I've seen far too many "flash in the pans" come and go, and they all "were the best" or "had the best warranty" when they started too, LOL.;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Pinwheel,

Those are all good points, but I still don't want to pay for any warranty repairs on a 3 year old $700 bow. Sorry, but that warranty doesn't cut the mustard. Just a personal opinion from a nobody, but I think Merlin should re-think this if they want the average bowhunter shooting their bows.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

I think to say that lifetime warranties are "blowing smoke" is a very general, wide sweeping misstatement. How can you say that companies in business less than 5 yrs, won't honor warranty repairs in another 5 yrs? You can't base all companies policy on a few. If Merlin only offers a 2 yr warranty, then maybe it's safe to "assume" you're on your own after that time.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

I've always tried to read what you say with as much respect as I can but after statements like these above, I've lost a lot of respect for you being a "repuatable tech" on the boards.

You only belive in what the beloved Merlin has to offer and if they don't offer it today, it sucks but if they offer it tomorrow it's the greatest product ever produced.

Yeah, I'm fairly new to the boards as a poster but I have sat back for some time just reading and learning (a lot from you and some others) and to me it seems that for someone that runs a "Pro Shop" you show way too much bias towards certain products. If someone comes in to your shop and wants a fallaway rest installed, do you try to talk them out of one like you do on the message boards? If you don't stock a bow from a company that someone asks you if you have, do you tell them you don't want that bow you want a Merlin because the other companies warranty is a gimmick. Let me guess, if Merlin starts offering one in 2005 it won't be considered a gimmick will it?

I would think that if Merlin made such great bows and since they've been around since the mid 70's, they'd have more than 16 dealers established in the U.S., at least that's how many there was 3 months ago, not sure now.

BTW, when will the dealer page be updated? If I was a Merlin Dealer I'd be extremely miffed about not having my shop name listed on the web site for the past 3 months.

JMHO's, Toby

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

SA-

Thanks for the input. I will mention it to the factory again and see what can be done about it.;)

Phil-

Yes, maybe I was wrong by stating that, however I feel it to be a fair assesment about companies that are just starting out or until they gain enough years and finances under their belts to ensure that they are not going to go under anytime soon. Seen it happen many times with many companies----and even tho companies like Hoyt have been around many years, another thing is they change everything up every couple of years also, and it's tough to get parts from them, everyone in the business knows that----so after a few years they too fall into the same boat too.

Ratus--

I think you might want to rest a little bit and think hard before coming on here and flaming me publically. I'll let you in on a little bit about me----I've been in this business and industry over 30 years, and have seen many "fads" and bow companies come and go. You mentioned fallaways, and yes, I will talk my customers out of them if given a chance because I do not feel they are necessary. I prefer Merlin bows for three reasons--#1, because I feel they make some of the finest crafted, straightest shooting equipment in the World. #2 Because they stand behind their products 100% and have the best return/repair percentage and customer service I have ever encountered to date. And #3 because I make money on them. I have shot on other factory staffs over the years, and have won many local, state, regional, and one world title over a decade ago. I've seen it all, and heard it all at some point along the way.

I personally think that you have a little agenda yourself for some reason as you constantly pick apart my posts, much like a couple of other loyal an determined bashers here---I make no bones about letting people know I sell Merlins and work for the company and am in fact biased, but if something sucks about any bow including the Merlins, I will tell you about it. I feel the warranty issue is not really an issue, that's all.

Yes, I am certainly biased, just as each and every other person on this board is. Only difference is that I shoot many different brands of bows day in and day out, not just the Merlins, so think about this for one minute----don't you think that if I thought something was better I'd be shooting it??? I'd be stupid not to.

Yep, Merlin has about 20-30 dealers now after having only 4 total in the USA last year and are gaining more each week across the country with little to no advertising! (lots of money saved) In 3 months since we started Merlin USA and only two since the ATA show I don't think that's bad-----you should also know that Merlin only recently started dealer sales in the states and only to pure target archers up until 2004. With Merlin USA onboard now and advertising to commence any day, make no mistake that they'll be around and more dealers will be coming onboard in the coming weeks and months.

If you've lost respect for me, oh well, nothing I can do about that. I will still continue to promote only items that I feel will be of benefit to archers, whether contrary to the advertising campaigns and followings of others (or even thoughts of others) or not. Some prefer to follow--- I much prefer to lead.;) Ask those who are shooting the bows, and those who are now winning with them. ;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Hey!!!! Anyone else notice that bohunt signed his post, Pinwheel 12???
Fishy!!!

Sorry, Walks like a gimp,
but I am my own person. That was just a quote.


Ratus,

As you see, I too do not post often. I just learn from others, the positive things (knowledge)to take and the negative things to leave (like mean destructive comments and/or opinions).
This is America where freedom of speech allows us to have forums like this one.


I can say, I must be one of the lucky one's, because I live in NH two hours from
Merlin USA and being able to shoot the Merlin bows.
Unfortunately for some they are not. Not no fault of Pinwheel but because this is a new small business just trying to get their feet wet and of the ground in the USA.
I'm sure by next year things will be better with more stocked inventory with more dealer base.

Back to the original posting:RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT

I just shot the Liberty and Justice yesterday, and the Merlin Max Extreme two weeks ago. My PERSONAL view (I'm not an expert or archery tech) is all bows shot outstanding.

The Justice has a great brace height 8 but was a little two short for my liking due to my style shooting and the balance of the bow.

The Liberty has the perfect balance for my style shooting, and the brace height at 7.5 was forgiving, and with the freedom cam, it brought it all together making this an excellent bow that fits my style of shooting in any hunting situation.

The Merlin Max Exteme is the best of both, the Liberty and the Justice (in my personal opinion). Due to the forgiving brace height of 8", the smooth and level nock travel from the omega cams, with the parallel limbs, somewhat like Bowtech's,
just not carbon with a rubber skin glued on them which are on the Max Extreme.

The tough choice in purchasing either the Merlin Max Extreme or the Bowtech Liberty comes down to out-weighing the pros and cons of my PERSONAL views.

1. That being the Merlin seems to have a little less recoil and no jumping out of my hand compared to the Bowtech. Not a great difference but a difference maybe due to the Merlin weighing a few more ounces more.

2. The price of the Bowtech slightly better $668.00 compare to $699.00 for the Merlin.

3. Customer Service: Kevin at Merlin is very knowlegeable and goes the extra mile
He is an excellent person who feels and stands strongly that Merlin Bows are the best from his many years as a professional in the Archery Field.
But I have to go the extra mile as this will be the only dealer in NH I would have to travel an exta 1.5 hours.Compared to many other dealers of Bowtech who also know their product.

4. Last but not least is Warranty. I have to agree with StraightArrow's Quote:

"The carbon limbs sound good and I'm guessing that the type of aluminum is better or you wouldn't have mentioned it. It makes me question why the warranty is only two years with full coverage, and only 5 years with the owner paying part of the cost. Does Merlin not have the confidence to match the warranty of other bows priced over $700? So many are giving a limited lifetime warranty on their bows, even the lower priced ones. I know that lifetime is not the owners lifetime, but I have a hard time believing that all wouldn't honor it for more then two years. I'm leaning to purchasing a Merlin Max Extreme and I'm quite certain I will keep it for more then 2 years, but I would hate to have to put any more money into it, if there's a problem a few years down the road. "

And the quote of others on other forums referencing warranty's ( something of a great debate).

Something I differ with in Pinwheel's opinion.

I will be keeping my bow over five years as I believe the majority of archers do.


And as Quoted by Pinwheel: Most of the companies you mentioned above have been in business less than 15 years--- in fact only TWO of them longer--- most of the others less than 10 yrs, some less than 5! Many of them are simply trying to get a foothold in the market with this "lifetime warranty" marketing gimmick, and it really doesn't matter because some I will be willing to bet will not even be here 10 years down the road--- think about that one for a second... So as stated, a "lifetime warranty" only does one good if the company is able to stay in businesss, and keeps an inventory of parts onhand for many years or is willing to replace a model with a brand new one-- and 10 years or more down the road when the cost of a new bow is $1500-2500 versus the $700 bow you bought yesterday that ain't gonna happen for FREE.

I know for "fact" some other bow manufacturers who have been around for a while, do back up their warranty 100% of the retail price of the bow you bought at that current time. (PSE/AR, Bowtech, Mathews, Hoyt, Parker)
As I and other friends have been on the receiving end of the warranty).I paid $600 for my bow over 8 years ago, not much difference in current prices with better technoloy.

I don't think it's a gimmick. I believe it's how they have become so successful because of the fact they have taken care of the customer and if they did not they would of lost their customer base and gone out of business. THIS IS A FACT in any sales business (LL BEAN, CABELAS, just to name a couple of businesses who have become so successful from their warranty/guarantee)
They also made this there living as Pinwheel is doing.

I do thank Pinwheel for all his expertise and help. I also thank him for listening to us, his customers and their constructive criticism.
As he has stated he has brought these customer concerns forward to the owner of Merlin.


I would buy the Merlin Max Extreme ( an unbelievable bow) in a heartbeat knowing my hard earned money was backed up by a lifetime warranty.

I GUESS "MY DECISION" WILL BE BASED ON THE RISK OF SPENDING MORE MONEY AFTER TWO YEARS IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG FOR A MERLIN MAX EXTREME THAT SEEMS TO HAVE A SLIGHT EDGE IN THE WAY IT SHOOTS FOR ME THAN THE BOWTECH LIBERTY.

This is my personal review of two bows and what they have offered "me" the consumer.

I, -bohunt, have endorsed this review. Is'nt America great, allowing us to give free opinions.
But do be careful and remember: Opinions are as only good, as what you paid for them !

cc. Merlin-uk
cc. Bowtech

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Great and thoughtful post -bohunt--- I totally respect your opinion and view and appreciate your honest comments. It seems that the warranty issue is more of an issue than I could've imagined it would be, so will discuss it further with the factory.

I still feel that it is of no consequence, knowing how most companies work, but you did make some great comments about Customer Service itself and I can see in that light how the differing warranties could be seen. Again, thanks for your comments as well as everyone elses' input---it will only serve to help us build a stronger company.;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

I stand corrected[&o]:D Good luck with your'n;)