RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Range, I've looked at and drawn an Outback and at the 80% letoff setting the valley is about like my '04 Pat Dually,,, very short. I could get along with the Outback well I believe but the ATA length is too short for my draw length (29.5). It looked like a nice bow for shorter draw hunters. I'll stick with 34ish and longer;)

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Funny, I shoot right at 29" dl and prefer the shorties...

Guess it's all in what you get used to :)

I don't think the lack of valley would be a deal breaker for someone, as long as they were aware of what they were getting and shot the proper poundage to deal with it.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Nah.... not on this one...[8D]:D

But....

SA---

I've yet to see these "many free" replacements that happened many years later on down the road---I've been in the Archery retail business for many years now, and after a certain period of time it simply doesn't happen in almost all cases. Most of the companies you mentioned above have been in business less than 15 years--- in fact only TWO of them longer--- most of the others less than 10 yrs, some less than 5! Many of them are simply trying to get a foothold in the market with this "lifetime warranty" marketing gimmick, and it really doesn't matter because some I will be willing to bet will not even be here 10 years down the road--- think about that one for a second... So as stated, a "lifetime warranty" only does one good if the company is able to stay in businesss, and keeps an inventory of parts onhand for many years or is willing to replace a model with a brand new one-- and 10 years or more down the road when the cost of a new bow is $1500-2500 versus the $700 bow you bought yesterday that ain't gonna happen for FREE.

Maybe Merlin will implement the "Lifetime Warranty" for 2005, don't know yet but it has been mentioned to those who need to know now with the recent flak being tossed around. Not that it makes any difference in the actual warranty of the products because it certainly doesn't, but because so many people cannot read between the lines of the marketing hype. This is not the first time I've had to defend this, but again be aware that Merlin is not the only company that implements the 5 year warranty versus the "lifetime" either--there are more than a few companies who do as mentioned previously---companies such as Martin (who have been around many years-- 1930's I believe???) who do not look like they are going away anytime soon. Merlin has been around since the early 1970's themselves, and they too will still be here long after many of the other "rookie" companies are gone. Always have to take that type of thing into account as well when choosing equipment.. I've seen far too many "flash in the pans" come and go, and they all "were the best" or "had the best warranty" when they started too, LOL.;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Pinwheel,

Those are all good points, but I still don't want to pay for any warranty repairs on a 3 year old $700 bow. Sorry, but that warranty doesn't cut the mustard. Just a personal opinion from a nobody, but I think Merlin should re-think this if they want the average bowhunter shooting their bows.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

I think to say that lifetime warranties are "blowing smoke" is a very general, wide sweeping misstatement. How can you say that companies in business less than 5 yrs, won't honor warranty repairs in another 5 yrs? You can't base all companies policy on a few. If Merlin only offers a 2 yr warranty, then maybe it's safe to "assume" you're on your own after that time.

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

I've always tried to read what you say with as much respect as I can but after statements like these above, I've lost a lot of respect for you being a "repuatable tech" on the boards.

You only belive in what the beloved Merlin has to offer and if they don't offer it today, it sucks but if they offer it tomorrow it's the greatest product ever produced.

Yeah, I'm fairly new to the boards as a poster but I have sat back for some time just reading and learning (a lot from you and some others) and to me it seems that for someone that runs a "Pro Shop" you show way too much bias towards certain products. If someone comes in to your shop and wants a fallaway rest installed, do you try to talk them out of one like you do on the message boards? If you don't stock a bow from a company that someone asks you if you have, do you tell them you don't want that bow you want a Merlin because the other companies warranty is a gimmick. Let me guess, if Merlin starts offering one in 2005 it won't be considered a gimmick will it?

I would think that if Merlin made such great bows and since they've been around since the mid 70's, they'd have more than 16 dealers established in the U.S., at least that's how many there was 3 months ago, not sure now.

BTW, when will the dealer page be updated? If I was a Merlin Dealer I'd be extremely miffed about not having my shop name listed on the web site for the past 3 months.

JMHO's, Toby

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

SA-

Thanks for the input. I will mention it to the factory again and see what can be done about it.;)

Phil-

Yes, maybe I was wrong by stating that, however I feel it to be a fair assesment about companies that are just starting out or until they gain enough years and finances under their belts to ensure that they are not going to go under anytime soon. Seen it happen many times with many companies----and even tho companies like Hoyt have been around many years, another thing is they change everything up every couple of years also, and it's tough to get parts from them, everyone in the business knows that----so after a few years they too fall into the same boat too.

Ratus--

I think you might want to rest a little bit and think hard before coming on here and flaming me publically. I'll let you in on a little bit about me----I've been in this business and industry over 30 years, and have seen many "fads" and bow companies come and go. You mentioned fallaways, and yes, I will talk my customers out of them if given a chance because I do not feel they are necessary. I prefer Merlin bows for three reasons--#1, because I feel they make some of the finest crafted, straightest shooting equipment in the World. #2 Because they stand behind their products 100% and have the best return/repair percentage and customer service I have ever encountered to date. And #3 because I make money on them. I have shot on other factory staffs over the years, and have won many local, state, regional, and one world title over a decade ago. I've seen it all, and heard it all at some point along the way.

I personally think that you have a little agenda yourself for some reason as you constantly pick apart my posts, much like a couple of other loyal an determined bashers here---I make no bones about letting people know I sell Merlins and work for the company and am in fact biased, but if something sucks about any bow including the Merlins, I will tell you about it. I feel the warranty issue is not really an issue, that's all.

Yes, I am certainly biased, just as each and every other person on this board is. Only difference is that I shoot many different brands of bows day in and day out, not just the Merlins, so think about this for one minute----don't you think that if I thought something was better I'd be shooting it??? I'd be stupid not to.

Yep, Merlin has about 20-30 dealers now after having only 4 total in the USA last year and are gaining more each week across the country with little to no advertising! (lots of money saved) In 3 months since we started Merlin USA and only two since the ATA show I don't think that's bad-----you should also know that Merlin only recently started dealer sales in the states and only to pure target archers up until 2004. With Merlin USA onboard now and advertising to commence any day, make no mistake that they'll be around and more dealers will be coming onboard in the coming weeks and months.

If you've lost respect for me, oh well, nothing I can do about that. I will still continue to promote only items that I feel will be of benefit to archers, whether contrary to the advertising campaigns and followings of others (or even thoughts of others) or not. Some prefer to follow--- I much prefer to lead.;) Ask those who are shooting the bows, and those who are now winning with them. ;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Hey!!!! Anyone else notice that bohunt signed his post, Pinwheel 12???
Fishy!!!

Sorry, Walks like a gimp,
but I am my own person. That was just a quote.


Ratus,

As you see, I too do not post often. I just learn from others, the positive things (knowledge)to take and the negative things to leave (like mean destructive comments and/or opinions).
This is America where freedom of speech allows us to have forums like this one.


I can say, I must be one of the lucky one's, because I live in NH two hours from
Merlin USA and being able to shoot the Merlin bows.
Unfortunately for some they are not. Not no fault of Pinwheel but because this is a new small business just trying to get their feet wet and of the ground in the USA.
I'm sure by next year things will be better with more stocked inventory with more dealer base.

Back to the original posting:RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT

I just shot the Liberty and Justice yesterday, and the Merlin Max Extreme two weeks ago. My PERSONAL view (I'm not an expert or archery tech) is all bows shot outstanding.

The Justice has a great brace height 8 but was a little two short for my liking due to my style shooting and the balance of the bow.

The Liberty has the perfect balance for my style shooting, and the brace height at 7.5 was forgiving, and with the freedom cam, it brought it all together making this an excellent bow that fits my style of shooting in any hunting situation.

The Merlin Max Exteme is the best of both, the Liberty and the Justice (in my personal opinion). Due to the forgiving brace height of 8", the smooth and level nock travel from the omega cams, with the parallel limbs, somewhat like Bowtech's,
just not carbon with a rubber skin glued on them which are on the Max Extreme.

The tough choice in purchasing either the Merlin Max Extreme or the Bowtech Liberty comes down to out-weighing the pros and cons of my PERSONAL views.

1. That being the Merlin seems to have a little less recoil and no jumping out of my hand compared to the Bowtech. Not a great difference but a difference maybe due to the Merlin weighing a few more ounces more.

2. The price of the Bowtech slightly better $668.00 compare to $699.00 for the Merlin.

3. Customer Service: Kevin at Merlin is very knowlegeable and goes the extra mile
He is an excellent person who feels and stands strongly that Merlin Bows are the best from his many years as a professional in the Archery Field.
But I have to go the extra mile as this will be the only dealer in NH I would have to travel an exta 1.5 hours.Compared to many other dealers of Bowtech who also know their product.

4. Last but not least is Warranty. I have to agree with StraightArrow's Quote:

"The carbon limbs sound good and I'm guessing that the type of aluminum is better or you wouldn't have mentioned it. It makes me question why the warranty is only two years with full coverage, and only 5 years with the owner paying part of the cost. Does Merlin not have the confidence to match the warranty of other bows priced over $700? So many are giving a limited lifetime warranty on their bows, even the lower priced ones. I know that lifetime is not the owners lifetime, but I have a hard time believing that all wouldn't honor it for more then two years. I'm leaning to purchasing a Merlin Max Extreme and I'm quite certain I will keep it for more then 2 years, but I would hate to have to put any more money into it, if there's a problem a few years down the road. "

And the quote of others on other forums referencing warranty's ( something of a great debate).

Something I differ with in Pinwheel's opinion.

I will be keeping my bow over five years as I believe the majority of archers do.


And as Quoted by Pinwheel: Most of the companies you mentioned above have been in business less than 15 years--- in fact only TWO of them longer--- most of the others less than 10 yrs, some less than 5! Many of them are simply trying to get a foothold in the market with this "lifetime warranty" marketing gimmick, and it really doesn't matter because some I will be willing to bet will not even be here 10 years down the road--- think about that one for a second... So as stated, a "lifetime warranty" only does one good if the company is able to stay in businesss, and keeps an inventory of parts onhand for many years or is willing to replace a model with a brand new one-- and 10 years or more down the road when the cost of a new bow is $1500-2500 versus the $700 bow you bought yesterday that ain't gonna happen for FREE.

I know for "fact" some other bow manufacturers who have been around for a while, do back up their warranty 100% of the retail price of the bow you bought at that current time. (PSE/AR, Bowtech, Mathews, Hoyt, Parker)
As I and other friends have been on the receiving end of the warranty).I paid $600 for my bow over 8 years ago, not much difference in current prices with better technoloy.

I don't think it's a gimmick. I believe it's how they have become so successful because of the fact they have taken care of the customer and if they did not they would of lost their customer base and gone out of business. THIS IS A FACT in any sales business (LL BEAN, CABELAS, just to name a couple of businesses who have become so successful from their warranty/guarantee)
They also made this there living as Pinwheel is doing.

I do thank Pinwheel for all his expertise and help. I also thank him for listening to us, his customers and their constructive criticism.
As he has stated he has brought these customer concerns forward to the owner of Merlin.


I would buy the Merlin Max Extreme ( an unbelievable bow) in a heartbeat knowing my hard earned money was backed up by a lifetime warranty.

I GUESS "MY DECISION" WILL BE BASED ON THE RISK OF SPENDING MORE MONEY AFTER TWO YEARS IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG FOR A MERLIN MAX EXTREME THAT SEEMS TO HAVE A SLIGHT EDGE IN THE WAY IT SHOOTS FOR ME THAN THE BOWTECH LIBERTY.

This is my personal review of two bows and what they have offered "me" the consumer.

I, -bohunt, have endorsed this review. Is'nt America great, allowing us to give free opinions.
But do be careful and remember: Opinions are as only good, as what you paid for them !

cc. Merlin-uk
cc. Bowtech

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

Great and thoughtful post -bohunt--- I totally respect your opinion and view and appreciate your honest comments. It seems that the warranty issue is more of an issue than I could've imagined it would be, so will discuss it further with the factory.

I still feel that it is of no consequence, knowing how most companies work, but you did make some great comments about Customer Service itself and I can see in that light how the differing warranties could be seen. Again, thanks for your comments as well as everyone elses' input---it will only serve to help us build a stronger company.;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT
 

I stand corrected[&o]:D Good luck with your'n;)