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Compact binoc ramblings....

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Old 03-02-2004, 05:48 PM
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Old 03-03-2004, 04:39 AM
  #12  
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Default RE: Compact binoc ramblings....

The porro design of the Mountaineers allows for slightly better light transmission by using bigger reflecting surface areas of the glass inside while still keeping the outstanding clarity.
Isn't there less glass in general with a porro prism design...in comparison to a roof prism? I have read in several places that a $100-$200 pair of porro prism binos is equivalent to a $400-$500 pair of roof prism in terms of light transmission, clarity, etc... because of the fewer glass lens/mirrors that light must pass through. Maybe you would want to comment on this a bit?

In reference to alloutdoors comments, I do agree that the lower power/larger objective binos would be ideal for many close range viewing situations. However, I think many folks are faced with both short range and some long range glassing that would require both a large objective for better light transmission and a slightly higher magnification to discern more details at farther distances.

Two examples of this, in my case, immediately spring to mind. One, our antler restrictions here in PA now make it critical that we count points. I have been faced with at least two occurrences where my 10x binos really came in handy. Going to something less than 8x probably would not have yielded the same results in my opinion. Second, and you guys are probably going to laugh at this, but I use my binos also to check the number of hits on Stealth game cam. I have it placed in a location where I can glass it from a distance without setting off the sensor and taking a picture of myself. Plus, I do not leave scent in the immediate area of the camera.

As I said, each has its place but it is difficult to just go with one size magnification or objective lens diameter to fit all situations...in my opinion.
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Old 03-03-2004, 10:18 AM
  #13  
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Default RE: Compact binoc ramblings....

Frank- here's a informational piece that helps:

Porro prisms are generally physically wider than long. When viewed from the side, they direct light along a path that is folded into something akin to a square S shape. If the prisms are of quality glass and aligned correctly, there is very little light loss or degradation of the image. The only real disadvantage is the fact that the prisms are large and bulky and consequently require large housings.

Roof prisms, on the other hand, are a newer design. They are smaller and more compact than Porro prisms, and actually resemble a small house with a peaked roof. This allows them to be fitted into smaller housings, which makes for more compact binoculars or spotting scopes.

However, standard roof prisms have several inherent design difficulties. First, they are (generally) not as bright as Porro prisms because they employ mirror surfaces that lose some light. Second, alignment is often more critical than in Porro prisms; an alignment error a fraction of the width of a human hair will degrade the image in a roof prism. Securing them in binoculars is much more of a challenge. Third, images are split and then rejoined slightly out of phase when they pass through such a prism. This produces an image of slightly less resolution than an equal quality Porro prism.

Thus we have a trade-off: the slight optical superiority of the typical Porro prism versus the comfort factor of the standard roof prism. Yes, average quality Porro prisms tend to give a sharper image than standard roof prisms. There is a price to pay for comfort.

Technology, however, has come to the rescue of the roof prism design. Enhanced coatings on some roof prism mirror surfaces reduces light loss to negligible levels. And even moderately priced roof prisms are now housed in cages that make them more secure than many Porro prisms. Best of all, some new roof prisms have special coatings that eliminate the phase problem. These phase-corrected or PC roof prisms can deliver images on a par with the best Porro prisms.

That’s the good news. The bad news is that all this extra effort and attention doesn’t come cheap. PC roof prism binoculars from Bausch & Lomb, Zeiss, Swarovski, and Leica are very expensive, often more than $1,000, but they rank as some of the finest instruments made. They are truly the standard of excellence in binoculars today. If you are a roof prism fan, you can now have your cake and eat it too if you can afford it.

If you can’t, standard roof prism models of at least average quality are still a good choice for birding, as long as they have all the other features of a good birding glass. But if you demand the best in resolution and sharpness, keep in mind that these roof prisms can only do so much without phase correction. A birder whose first concern is resolution must therefore pay the price for a PC roof prism, or opt for a good Porro prism.

In fact Porro prism binoculars remain the best buy for your optical dollar, because they can do anything a PC roof prism binocular can do, and at a fraction of the cost. It’s just plain economics—it costs less to produce a Porro prism binocular to the same optical standards as PC roof prism binoculars. Consequently, if you see two binoculars at the same price, one a Porro prism and one a roof prism, it shouldn’t be too hard to predict which one has better optics.

This is especially important for performance-conscious birders on a tight budget. Inexpensive Porro prism binoculars today are much better optically than inexpensive roof prism models. If you must buy cheap, at least go with a Porro.

But keep in mind that whatever optical deficit roof prism designs once had, the improvements in roof prism optics such as phase-corrected coatings have mostly erased them. And in the marketplace, where consumers vote with their wallets, birders who are buying top-end binoculars tend to elect roofs over Porros. This is why almost all the new advances in birding binoculars have been in roof prism designs.


The porros will have more reflecting surface area per reflection, and also less reflections needed to get to your eye, that's why they "generally" seem brighter.
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Old 03-03-2004, 10:27 AM
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Default RE: Compact binoc ramblings....

I used my Mountaineer's for the first time at league last night. One of my main goals in finding new binos for indoor target was light gathering ability while still being rather compact. These are the brightest I've seen, and still keep damn close to the clarity and sharpness of image that the Venturer's have.

At some indoor ranges, the lighting may not be the best and it can be hard to get a good image, that's why light gathering ability was a factor for me. Well after last night, I'm VERY happy with my new glasses- brightest target face I've seen yet for a pair of binos this small. And I was never able to read the fine print on a NFAA 5 spot before....

The Venturers may have a slightly better depth of field, and they do have a larger field of view. As I said, they are awesome compacts- the best I've seen. Depends on what you want them for. I think in daylight the Venturer's provide a slightly sharper image, while in low light the Mountaineer's gather more light.
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Old 03-03-2004, 12:10 PM
  #15  
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Default RE: Compact binoc ramblings....

Thank you Todd. That is exactly what I was referring to. Earlier you mentioned where you have situations when individuals whip out an 8x40 set of binoculars and try to compare them to a set of true compacts. I have run into similar situations where folks will whip out a set of 8x21 "X" brand that they bought at Walmart for $20 and then try to say they work just as well under all conditions as even a $90 roof prism compact or a $50 porro prism design of roughly equivalent specs.

Along that line of thought, the more I think of it I believe the Brunton's to be a porro prism design based on the shape of the binocular and the brightness level in comparison to some of the roof prism compacts I have/do own.

I, for one, would love to see you do some more, when time and money allows, with a different category of binocs as well.
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Old 03-03-2004, 12:17 PM
  #16  
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Default RE: Compact binoc ramblings....

Frank, the more I compare these two (I'll post some pics for size comparisons) the more I feel that I should just keep both pair.... I was just about to take the Venturer's back because I really love the Mountaineer's for the brightness of indoor ranges. But I took another long look through the Venturer's at lunch today and they are just so nice that I'm not sure if I want to give them up.
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Old 03-03-2004, 12:21 PM
  #17  
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Default RE: Compact binoc ramblings....

Those Venturers are supposed to be the cat's meow when it comes to quality optics....right up there with the Swaros, Zeiss, etc... at least from what I have read. That price is not that bad even considering they are compact binocs. If I may ask, did you buy those at a local shop or online somewhere. I would be interested in taking a gander to appease my curiousity. Somehow, as I mentioned earlier, I doubt Cabelas carries them....
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Old 03-03-2004, 12:27 PM
  #18  
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Default RE: Compact binoc ramblings....

Some of the binos I got for comparison were from local stores, and some were mail order.

Don't get fooled when shopping online for the cheapest price on binos from all the NY camera and optic shops (rip off artists). They may have the lowest price on their website, but I've had two bad experiences of being lied to by those types of places. YOU'VE BEEN WARNED! By FAR, the most reputable online place to buy binocs that I've found is www.eagleoptics.com

They get huge thumbs up from me.

They are located right here in my state of Wisconsin, have very good prices, and outstanding customer service. Great people to talk to and they know their stuff. Two people I talked to there also preferred the Venturer 10x25's over the Zeiss Victory 10x25 or Leica 10x25.

When it's time for buying 10x42's, I'm going to take the hour's drive and go to their shop to do comparisions right there.
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Old 03-03-2004, 01:35 PM
  #19  
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Default RE: Compact binoc ramblings....

Here's some pics of size comparisons.

Folded up:





And open for use:



Now I'm curious to get the 8x25 Mountaineers- if the 10x25's are this bright, I would imagine that the 8x25 version is exceptional.
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Old 03-04-2004, 05:16 AM
  #20  
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Default RE: Compact binoc ramblings....

When it's time for buying 10x42's, I'm going to take the hour's drive and go to their shop to do comparisions right there.
...and probably much less expensive too....

I have yet to buy from any of those New York "distributors". Most of my purchases are either from local optic shops, Cabelas or one or two reputable online stores but good point about the potential risk.

Great picture shots as well. I am going to see if I can add a few, if you don't mind, pics of some of the models I mentioned as well.
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