We promote them as being solid Gordon Glass limbs (compression molded) It's not the composition but rather the company that makes them as they make most others in the industry. They won't tell what the excact composition is but they are some of the strongest out there. No laminates or glues to let go just a solid compression molded limb.

On another note back to the hand shock (or lack of) of the Patriot. I have spent the last three weekends representing BowTech. The AMO Show Jan 25-26-27. A field rep. trip Feb. 2-3 and the Mich. Deer and Turkey Spectacular Feb 8-9-10 and from all the shows and all the folks that shot the Patriot I've only heard of two people that have said that they have hand shock. I think that speaks well for the bow in itself. You really have to shoot one to appreciate it. Yes us shooters do promote the company we shoot for thats part of our job just as any other companies shooters are supossed to do. You would think that some of the paid staff shooters would get on here and promote the bow that puts a pay check in their pocket instead of a bunch of amateur shooters that TRULY stand behind their product.

Edited by - BowTech_Shooter on 02/14/2002 12:24:30

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> You would think that some of the paid staff shooters would get on here and promote the bow that puts a pay check in their pocket instead of a bunch of amateur shooters that TRULY stand behind their product.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
....isn't that the truth...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

If I go the Bowtech route...which it looks like I am going to then I will give the bow a fair shake before posting my opinion of it.

As for the limb issue....it was you BS that was the other gentleman that gave me the information about the limbs being Power Tuft Gordon Glass limbs...now if I could just find where I read that they were carbon/glass...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.

BowTech_shooter, as a rep I fully expect you to stick up for your product and sing its praises, which I don't mind in the least.

I am only stating what I experienced when I shot the Patriot. It is not an attack on you, BowTech, or any of the BowTech brethren. It doesn't matter to me what the brand name of a bow is, I am only interested how it performs for me. I have owned enough bows from different manufacturers to stock the shelves of most bow shops and the equipment choices that I make are ones that suit me personally. It doesn't matter to me if two billion Chinese prefer rice for dinner, and I choose chicken, I will dine happily and never give it a second thought.

Not that it is important, but I know of at least one person that shot the Patriot at the Mich. Deer and Turkey Spectacular and gave the same opinion that I did. He obviously shot it before I did and he called me with his assessment. Wanting to see for myself I didn't mentions his feelings until I shot the bow. If you feel that the Patriot &quot;is by far the most shock free bow I've shot to date&quot; then I would encourage you to shoot the Q series or the Tech series bows. Perhaps your opinion would change, perhaps it wouldn't. If it did or didn't, it still wouldn't matter to me, for in the end all that matters is that I am satisfied with my equipment and how it performs.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the Patriot, it is a fine bow and I think BowTech is headed in the right direction by adding it to their line up. However for this &quot;amateur&quot;, with other options available, it wouldn't be my first choice in bows at this time.

Bowtech Shooter,
I was at the Deer Spectacular Show.......*Was'nt very Spectacular, kinda of lousy actually*, but I did stop by & shoot the Patriot at your booth & found it very pleasant to shoot. With no string silencers or Limb Savers or stabilizer I found that it was very quiet with little or no hand shock.

I've decided to order one, but need to know from you which cam was on the bow at the show in your booth. I found it very smooth.

I want to compare it to my Hoyt Vortec with Saber Cam & my Merlin Quest Twin Cam, both are some of the best hunting bows I've ever owned, hopefully the Patriot will rank up there with these... I think it will !!

Wow..lots of posts today...I got slammed at work while writing my response to Frank...

will post later when I get home..

JeffB
&quot;Vehement Defender of Bowtech Products&quot;

That will teach you to post at work...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I still can't believe that such a technically minded person like JeffB hasn't figured out that you need to put [ ] on either side of the smiley faces to make them work on this forum....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Sorry Jeff, I just like to bust on you.

Do me a favor, oh vehemenent defender, tell me which bow I should purchase with my new found &quot;wealth&quot;....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Frank,

Just teasing about the Accu-Riser but I've been told that if you want a Bowman speed bow then Stewart can build you one if you request it.
If he can't match Bowtech's speed, he will tell you he can't.
Powertuff has always been considered Gordon's best limb material and used almost exclusively by traditional bowyers.
It is rated 170,000 psi. from information I have from the past.
Archineer stated on another thread that Hoyt's Gordon lams they use were rated 260,000 psi. and I was wrong about the psi rating.
If that's true than WOW but I haven't heard it anywhere else.
Compound manufacturers could take a cue from Traditional Bowyers.
When a traditional bowyer builds you a bow with carbon lams, you get exactly that, a full lenght of quality carbon lamination.
As far as the amount of carbon in the limbs of compounds, that's up to the specs set forth by the bow manufacturer. Some want one lamination or in the case of Mathews just the tips. To others, carbon powder is sufficient just so they can say their limbs have carbon. Some just lie, period.
Compression Molded limbs are considered extremely strong but there are those that claim they can be inconsistant because the fibers are crushed together during the process and thus create weak areas in the limb.
You might have one part of the limb with a 200,000 psi rating and another area that rates 80,000 psi.
Laminated limbs, if manufactured correctly, are stronger, more consistant, smoother, and a tad more accurate than molded limbs.
This, according to what I been told by people who know better than I.
Some detractors claim...
Laminated limbs can delaminate from too much heat and for this reason aren't as tough as Compression Molded.
Heck, Compression Molded limbs warp from too much heat, so either way your limb is ruined.
Merlin's new Fusion Force process may be the better way. Only time will tell.
I feel, Merlin and Barnsdale are the best limbs going right now.
My Barnsdale Limbs are beautiful, smooth, and accurate as can be.
I take Pinwheel's word for the Merlin limb quality and my friend Dr L. who owns Merlin and Bowman and speaks highly of them.
Those new carbon limbs looked awesome in the pics Pinwheel emailed to me the other day.
Well, enough of this ramble,lol.


Sag.

Antler,

I’m surprised the shop would not set up a bow w/ a decent stabilizer, LS and silencers. Some shops won’t I know…but it doesn’t hurt to ask

And while I agree, the Q series bows and what-not are BT’s visible competition, it’s still an unfair comparison. Try comparing a U2 or HyperTec vs. a similar speed BT like the MM, or even the Patriot, and we have a more legitimate “real” comparison.

Frank,

Aye.drain the sand...the ST’s do work, then in a truly fair comparison we would need to shoot a non-Tec riser, or a Mathews w/out dampers, etc.

And this brings me to my real point again. There is no way you can do an apples to apples comparison, out of the box really w/ any bow shooting a XLB/Ygrain setup unless speeds are similar.

As far as how I feel about BT:

1) I truly and sincerely believe in the product and the direction/attitude of the company. They are the most successful young bow company in the business and it’s because they have worked hard to do so. Look at some of the really small companies that have been around for awhile. Forge, Clearwater, ProSport (er..Champion now), etc. while they all may make great equipment, they have become lost in the shadow of the big boys due to lack of innovation, lumbering along behind those major players, and lack of demand for their products due to the above. BT on the other hand has done things in a very smart way from a business standpoint: good marketing (and they are not overly untruthful like some companies, though any company will have it’s share of BS..and I work in a Marketing Dept..I should know ), and they listen to feedback. They seem to be truly interested in what the people who shoot their bows have to say. Some companies refuse to make any significant worthy changes to their technology for fear that the BS and half-truth smokescreen they have been blowing will be seen though by the masses. Other companies just chug along making good or even great products that are not significantly different from products they have made in years prior. Some companies try to be different, but do not execute well because the engineering may not be sound, or the quality of materials is low.


2) I have found them to be the fastest line of ACCURATE bows on the planet. I’m past the “speed phase” of 10 years ago. I was there in it’s infancy, and saw where it led us. It wasn’t pretty. For a few years after, bow performance was sacrificed to bring us more quiet, and recoil free bows: it was a necessary step. All the big manufacturers rallied around the most innovative company of the late 90’s and spun out their own versions. In 2000, BT came on the scene and said “screw that, we can build very fast AND very accurate/shootable”. Kevin Strother had been building fast and accurate “sleeper” bows for years. The old Oregon BK’s were way ahead of the time. Against the competition (the Martin Fury, PSE G-Force, Darton Hurricane, etc), the original BK was another “against the grain” bow. While it may have been a bit harder to draw, it had much less recoil and noise, and was a more forgiving design w/ it’s less radical riser. I had been following Kevin’s career as best I could because I knew he was an exceptional designer. I had high hopes for Horizon, but after getting a demo at the shop, and then talking to other people, I knew that the company would not last, due to lack of drive, quality of sales folk, and quality control. Kevin then went and designed the K-cam for GE, and disappeared. When he showed up again w/ BT, and I then saw the products take off in early 2000, I knew they had a good chance. Now BT is building a very fast, and very accurate bow that may not be the most quiet or recoil free, but I feel are unfairly judged in most cases, and are the next company that ignorant people will rally around to hate like Mathews was prior (remember the Mathews wars on the bowsite?). They are not overly loud when set-up properly, nor are they overly jumpy. When compared draw length to draw length and pound to pound performance(i.e speed) wise they are superior to 99% of the designs out there. While they are not always perfect on AMO specs, the deviation has become smaller every year, and less than the majority of the competition. I heard one rep for one of the largest manufacturers (if not THE largest) in the world tell a local dealer last year that their draw lengths were running ¾” to 1 ¼ long on purpose cause everyone else was doing it....BS.. Get the draw lengths even, whether they are AMO spec or not, and BT’s will be as fast or most likely faster. Again speed does not matter, if accuracy is sacrificed. The BT models are the only designs in many a year I have felt are shootable enough in my hands to shoot at 5 grains per LB. For the past several years I (like many) have dropped my speed little by little till I was shooting in the 6.5 grains per LB range to get the forgiveness I wanted in a hunting set-up. This was getting me speeds in the mid-high 260’s to low 270’s at most. Now I’m shooting in the High 280’s at slightly over 5 grains per LB, and doing it w/ just as much, if not more forgiveness, and my bows are not too loud or too jumpy. When I drop arrow weights to match the speeds of my HavocTec and Q2, the MM is not significantly louder or jumpier. In my case, I’m sacrificing nothing and gaining quite a bit of performance.

Now, BT’s are NOT perfect. They get that speed the only way you can: upping the Force Draw Curve. You work more pound for pound compared to the competition. I am a big fella (even though now I’m a lot more flab than muscle), and I don’t really have a problem drawing 75-85 LBs w/ the right cams. A 70 LB BK cam is pushing my limits and the PF cam is just under my threshold at 70-71 Lbs. For folks who don’t like the stiffer curve , you can always drop your bow weight several pounds to keep the same performance you are getting now, or you can shoot a slightly slower bow, w/ lighter arrows. I like th extra efficiency, and find the DFC a negligible tradeoff.

3) Construction: There are a lot premium priced bows out there w/ less than premium quality construction. The last 3 bows I have purchased from high end manuafcturers have all had glaring problems with construction, or fit and finish. Whether it's stuff put on backwards,poor limb sanding, poor machining, slop in the axles, sloppy fit of pockets to riser, and limb to pockets, it doesn't matter: those things should be non-existant. Nothing bothers me more than dropping $700+ with tax..think about that.. SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS..and find ANY flaw or poor construction. Now while every company has a problem w/ bows now and then, w/ some of the high end companies these things are very commonplace.

With the BT line, EVERY model I've shot(which is a dozen plus), handled (which is several dozen) and/or owned (3 so far) has had NO slop in the axles, NO slop in the pockets, NO slopply limb sanding, No sloppy construction whatsoever. They are some of the highest quality bows I have ever seen. Some folks may not care if they have space on an axle or the idler is a little wobbly,the limbs lean a tad, or the forks of the limbs have sander ridges, or whatnot, but I sure do.

Although Merlin, and Barnsdale probably are putting out the best in limb construction these days, I don't find Gordon's higher end limb constructions poor by any means. Gordon has been doing this a long time, and offer many price points, and construction levels. Since BT seems to have very low failure rate, and w/ the amount of people I know abusing the crap out their BT's I suspect that the limbs are &quot;not that bad&quot; in real world applications.

Basically they donn't cut corners. Look at the axle bushings. Most manufacturers use synthetic bushing these days..even Hoyt uses them now. The main reason manufacturers use these is economy: not just because they are cheaper to manufacture, but less apt bowshops have no difficulty in changing them out when they wear..simply pop the old one out, and slap a new one in. The manufacturers usually tell you they are better for a myriad of other reasons too, but the ease of replacement is the only real advantage they offer over a higher quality axle bushing. The first manufacturers to start using synthetic bushings extensively years ago all had a rep for inexpensive lower quality manufacturing. While newer synthetics are much better than old, they are still not the best answer when quality is the concern.

The addition of the Winners Choice Strings is another step up IMO. I have yet to have a bow, ANY bow, 1 cam or 2 that has had less cam tuning hassles than my Bowtechs..none...Not even w/ other name brand custom strings, locally manufactured custom strings, or the best &quot;stock&quot; strings on the market (Hoyt and Merlin). I put ONE twist in my cable..that's all I've had to do w/ 2 different bows..I have not had to even put them in a press (I used the old Allen Wrench limb Stop method to put the twist in my first MM). No peep rotation, no measureable creep..none. Can I buy them for any bow? Yeah, but it sure is nice to have them on the bow already.

I could go on really...It's not because I need to defend the bows,they speak for themselves when all else is compared equally(or as equal as is possible). It's also not because they are few FPS faster than the other bows I own: As I've said, extra speed is not a valid tradeoff to me if accuracy and forgiveness are sacrificed.

Honestly, I'm a fence sitter when it comes to most brands of bows, always have been. I have some faves, of course, but I have no illusions that any particular brand is perfect. I always tell folks that what shoots best for me,may not for them. I'll be the first person to say what &quot;faults&quot; BT bows have (the grips, the FDC, the increased noise and recoil), I just feel that they more than any other brand now (used to be Mathews, and HCA before that, as PW12 said)are pre-judged before they are given a fair shake..especially when we compare them to another bow that is 15-30 FPS slower than they are..of course they are going to be louder and jumpier..that's not rocket science. Compare them setup to setup, and FPS to FPS, and then tell me what you think..you still may not like them as much as X brand, but I bet you'll think differently.

Vic,

Gosh bud..I'm REALLY sorry to hear that..My problem is opposite..when my body finally &quot;gave out&quot;..I put on the pounds from not being able to hardly lift a thing, let alone do a benchpress or deadlift. Now it's a catch 22, If I exercise I kill my back..If I remain too sedentary, I kill my back...I've had to give up treestand hunting for the past couple of years. But my problems are miniscule comparitively...If I can ever help out, or you just need an ear (or a keyboard..hee hee) to listen to you, let me know! I mean it. Keep the faith bro!

P.S: And no, I'm not compensated by BT in any way, shape, or form..though I sure would like to be!!!!

JeffB
&quot;Vehement, Vigilant, and..uhm..Virgin(?) Defender of Bowtech Products&quot;

Frank and Jeffb,

Thanks for the kind words. They are a real spirit lifter. I'll be OK, just smaller and have to watch what I eat. Chances are that when I ween off the prednisone in a couple of months I can go back pretty close to normal, with maybe some occasional flare-ups.

It's not all bad. Since I'm laying out of school 'til next fall, I have tons of time to spend with my 11 month old son. IT's GREAT!!

It looks like I'm going to get to shoot the Patriot sooner than planned. I let a local dealer see my 2001 ES so he decided to start carrying Bowtech and should have the Patriot in a couple of days.

I also have a question for anyone that might know. I was looking to get a Loesch grip for my Pro 38. There were 2 prices and I couldn't tell what the difference was. Is the cheaper one for the side plates, and the more expensive for the full one piece grip?
It wasn't clear from the web page, or maybe it just wasn't to me in my drug induced stupor.

Thanks,
Vic

Vic,

You enjoy that time with your bow..the old saying about the time goingtoo fast is true..my boy is now about 2 1/2 years...I wish I could stop time as far as he's concerned!

The price difference seems to be a mistake on the website. I belive the camo colors are the lesser price and the other colors (like blue, etc) are the higher.

Keep up the good attitude, that is the most important thing you need!

JeffB