Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

After seeing the new Champion line of bows and reading about their new hybrid cam I started to wonder something. Would the hybrid cam be so popular right now if Hoyt had not come out with the Cam.5 system last year? I know...I know.....Merlin came out with it as the same time approximately and Champion has supposed to have been working on it for two years but....do you folks think the hybrids would be where they are at today if Hoyt had not done what they did last season? I mean Darton has been pushing the hybrids for quite some time now without it really catching on but now it seems they are coming out of the woodwork. Is a strong marketing approach really all that is needed to get a new concept going?

This should be a good one for you P12 as it falls right into your line of thinking that we will all come back to duals eventually.

Comments?

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

It seems it always takes one of the big players with agressive advertising to get a new concept into main stream.

I guess you can say the same thing about Solo Cams And Mathews

BTW - those Champions do look like some real nice bows..........HMMMMMMM;)

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

My thoughts are this. Hoyt has a very good reputation and a lot of folks through the years have always looked at Hoyt as one of those "Fred Bear" type companies. Ones that have been in this rodeo for a while. Hoyts marketing is very strong and yes, that does play a major factor. If Bowtech next year comes out with a radical new idea for something that really does work, it will probably take off as well. People are gaining trust in them, just like a lot of people have Hoyt over the years.

Then again, I don't know. From what I have heard, Mathews sales are continuing to fall regardless of how bad they bash Hoyt in the magazines.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I agree with Rack. For instance, Darton is not heavily advertised and I don't see many Darton shooters in my area, but there may be one more this year if I get ahold of a Maverick and shoot it.

Its funny how heavy advertising can put a company in the forefront and its up to them to make good on their promises in their ads. Seems like Hoyt, Matthews and Bowtech have done that! Remember......Bowtech and this new Hoyt are relatively new. Hoyt is not the same ole Hoyt I grew up hearing about. Even Matthews has grown up some. I remember people poking fun at the Solo cams at first, heck, everyone thought they were just a spin off of McPhereson. What a difference a few years made!

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I'm on my second year with them , and they are working good for me . To answer the origanal question , I would say hoyt had a major impact when they change all of their bows to the curant configuration , and of coarse all that free advertising mathews did for them did'nt hert any . I still say they are going to merge as one company , why else would one company do so mutch advertising for another ?:D:D:D

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Yes...

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

The first move was from all wood bows to fiberglass backed bows. Then to eccentric energy wheels. From eccentric energy wheels to hard cams. Hard cams to single cams. Now, singles to hybrids. The historical progression provides proof positive that archers have a well developed herding instinct. :)

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

ROTFLMAO :D

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Frank, You forgot to include one important piece of the history of the hybrid/cam.5 system.

Mathews actually built the world's first Cam 1/2 system back in 1993 (their testing proved it to be an inferior to the single cam).

Just think if they could have made it work and if they would have marketed it the way they did the SoloCam.

Just more food for thought.....

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Short answer? Absolutely not.

Darton has been pushing the system for nearly 10 years with limited sales success. Very good cam system, critically acclaimed, but unpopular w/ the masses due to Dartons historic inability to put the cam system on a bow that would shoot as smoothly, and quietly as the popular singles. I love the CPS, but I never could find a bow that I really liked to shoot that used it. Martin unsuccessfully tried to bring them out (licensed) in the late 90's and after one production year they were dropped..much for the same reason I suspect.

Hoyt was able to put their version on a very quiet, shock free, smooth shooting platform, and that is why they have done so well. Their name recognition helps, but Hoyt also has brought out plenty of not so good dual and single cam systems over the years too (performa cams, power cams, their original single, 2001 V-cam).

I personally think that single sales will level off..drop a fairly significant amount, Hybrids will take up most of that slack, and duals will gain a small percentage of it too. But I don't think singles will "die" at least in the near future. There are plenty of hunters and target shooters who are perfectly happy with them.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Jeff, does that include the '03 Darton Magnum and Avalanche extreme? I am highly interested in the AE, but can find only a few folks that have actually shot the bow. One guy on AT says it's a dream to shoot, no recoil/noise and just sits in your hand...

34 1/4 ATA, 7.25" brace with the CPS Extreme cam, IBO of 308...

Shoot one at the show for me, will ya?

:)

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I shot the magnum 33 and IMO it was as bad or worse than the Mavericks for shock/recoil/noise. Have not shot the Mag Extreme. I ran about a dozen arrows through the Avalanche w/ full sims outfit (leeches, limbsavers, stabilizer)..definite improvement but for me personally it was not enough of an impovement to get me to shell out the $. It felt like my PSE Enforcer i.e. still had a little thump & bump and that characteristic Darton "plock" sound.

Nicely built bow though, as all Dartons are.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I'm with JeffB. I've been a diehard Darton shooter since they developed the hybrid in 96. That being said the bow really made to much noise to be able to hunt deer in the west. noise really starts to be an issue when your shots are in the 35 to 40 yard range. :( Last year I had an opportunity to pick up a used 03 Cybertec and shoot both bows (Maverick vs Cybertec) head to head. In a word no comparison the Cybertec was deadly quiet. I have a couple of blacktails in the freezer because of it. I even had the NV system on the Maverick and it still wasn't close. As Jeff stated Darton's are well built and I never had any problems with them, just needed something that wasn't as noisy.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I definitely think it took a combination of advertising and a bow that was pleasant to shoot. Hoyt succeeded first in the total package. Merlin is at least equal, but they haven't yet, let anyone in on their secret. Martin and Champion are following suit as I'm sure others will. I think the hybrids would have succeeded within the next few years anyway, but witout a doubt, Hoyt got the ball rolling.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I have to agree with Jeff.[:@] The biggest thing Hoyt did to advance the hybrid cams was make a bow that was quiet and soft shooting using them.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Hoyt still carries a lot of wieght within the industary even though they're not the Hoyt of years past. They did improved on Dartons system but I think the solo system had flaws and the hybrid cam was the next step of improvement for the solo's. It took Hoyts engineering, mass avdertizing and peoples trust in there name to do what Darton couldn't. Like Straightarrow said it would have happened eventually.

Jeff, I found that the NV Dampener system along with Limb Savers and a good stabilizer tamed down my Mav. A heavier arrow(2314) also helped. It still not as smooth as the Omega cam but a whole lot nicer to shoot. JERRY

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I think the responses by others, especially Jeff's, really nailed it. Even though certain aspects of Hoyt's Cam.5 are not necessarily better, or even as good as the CPS, Hoyt did several important things.

1. A major player in hunting, 3D, and target bows decided to make ALL of their lineup with Cam.5.

2. They advertised very effectively, if perhaps overstating the virtues of their system somewhat. (Sound familiar?)

3. As stated earlier, they produced a hybrid that was smooth and quiet to shoot. Darton never seemed to focus on recoil/noise reduction as a design element for the CPS. Hoyt did.

Some other hybrids, particularly the Newberry, look like they have designed a hybrid system to be optimized in many respects. The Champion Scorpion looks pretty good too. If I hadn't just gotten a very nice 2 cam (wheel) bow that I like very much, I would probably take a good look at some of these new bows.;)

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I totally agree. Yes, I'm partial to Hoyt. But that because I've owned quite a few of there bows and they have all been excellent quality and shot very well.

Hoyt could probably come out with a wheely bow and push it like they do the C.5 and it would sell well for them. I think its simply that fact that over the years, Hoyt has produced bows that were excellent and people were able to shoot them well. This builds confidence in the industry and no one expects to see a sub par bow from them. Thus, no one has a problem buying a bow from them.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

There has been more than one company in recent years working on the hybrid design, long before Hoyt released their version last year. It is no secret in the industry that there is simply much more room to move within this design than within the conventional solocam, therefore future improvements to the design will be much more easily designed and acheived.

I do give Hoyt a bundle of credit for pushing the hybrid into the limelight, but there is no doubt in my mind that it would've come anyway within a year or two---maybe not by Darton or Merlin themselves, but with so many other companies now coming onto the bandwagon, Martin, Champion, Kodiak, Newberry, etc etc I truly beleive that the design has finally caught hold and that this is the next step forward in the evolution of cam design. IMO the solos will continue to fade over time as an obsolete entity because there is now a much better mousetrap available. That is also IMHO why you saw the "running scared, time to smash Hoyt" advertising banter in 2003 from certain companies---they know the deal as well and lost around 25-30% in sales in 2003 from what I understand, nevemind what will happen in 2004.. Even dual cams do not offer all of the attributes that Hybrids do IMHO. In a nutshell, they(hybrids) offer the best combination of attributes of both twins and solos-- all in one package, and are the easiest bows to tune and shoot I've ever experienced in over 30+ years in this sport and industry-- with little recoil, vibration, and handshock to boot. Having been a staunch twin cam fan for many years now, this is saying something and it took me a long time to become convinced and say so. I now shoot the Merlin Omega hybrid exclusively for all applications, and feel there is no finer hybrid system currently available anywhere. (Each bow comes complete with simple tuning instructions! Almost impossible to screw it up![8D])

I truly believe this is a good thing for the industry overall---people are hungry for new concepts, and we must retaiin interest and excitement within the industry for it to prosper. I think that many companies are now finally getting off their duffs and back into the R&D depts, and we as archers will certainly benefit from this increased activity over the next few years. JMHO, Pinwheel 12

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

'bout time. I have been waiting for your comments for over a day...:D

So, after reading all of the above, my next question is how long do you think it will be before we see some hybrids from companies such as PSE, Browning (yeah, I know they are basically one and the same), etc..? Or will we?

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

This may, or may not be the case. Had Hoyt not made the bold move they did, I wonder if the other companies would have? Darton makes a decent bow but, never seemed to get the public overly excited about them. Hoyt did. Only time will tell re: the fate of single cams. But I don't see them going away anytime soon.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Darton simply was not big enough by themselves to do it without help, neither is Merlin, neither is Champion, Kodiak, Newberry, or even Martin. All of whom have been working with the design for awhile, with Darton of course being the first to really promote it.

With a superpower like Hoyt/Easton scrapping all other cam designs and putting full emphasis into the cam.5, the hybrid design finally got the recognition it deserves--but eventually it would've come anyway, and Hoyt would've gone this route at some point irregardless IMHO, because of the foresight that they have in R&D, just as the others mentioned above do.

Frank, I have no doubt in my mind that PSE/AR/Browning will eventually fold under the pressure and also build a hybrid, because they have certainly been playing with them too---they will however hang onto the conventional solo concept for as long as they can, because they like Mathews have a vested interest in solocam design and patents and they of course would like to ride that money wave all the way to shore.;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

edit--BTW, sorry to make you wait so long, I've been just a little bit busy getting ready for the ATA show. I'll try to do better next time.[8D]:D:D

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

As PW 12 so eloquently said

Quote:

---

"Even dual cams do not offer all of the attributes that Hybrids do IMHO. In a nutshell, they(hybrids) offer the best combination of attributes of both twins and solos-- all in one package, and are the easiest bows to tune and shoot I've ever experienced..."

---

I remember saying this MANY times over the last 5-6 years.;);););):D

Sorry, Kevin, I just couldn't resist. I knew that once Merlin made the move you'd try it and like it.;) Now you know why I've been stuck with the C/P/S for so long and why people like Norb Mullaney choose to have one as their 'private/individual' bow.

Good shooting and I hope to see you at the ATA Show this year.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

If your ugly step-sister was using a beauty product that really worked, few would be impressed by its merit. Now take that same product and apply it on a big name celebrity like Britney Spears. Suppose it would make a difference in the products popularity?

No question about it in my mind, the Hoyt/Easton name, marketying strategy, and advertising capital accelerated the hybrid systems arrival to the forefront.

The "M" company did nothing but help the cause by calling attention to the product. Most of us can't help but watch a "cat fight". It gets our attention and generates interest. I mean who wouldn't want to see Britney Spears and Shania Twain compete in a "grudge match". :D

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

As long as it was a fight to the death and the winner got a bullet, I'd be a really happy guy...

Hoyt orchestrated a marketing dream with their Cam 1/2 even without the advertising battle with Mathews. Putting that bow in the hands of Chance, Dave Cousins, Dijan Sitar, Mary Zorn and a PILE of others was a great move. The Cam 1/2 set a bunch of world records last year in their hands. They knew Mathews OWNED 3D, but there is a whole other archery world out there besides 3D. Many bowhunters, including myself, follow all the venues of archery and the success of Hoyt on the international level in 2003 was astounding.

That being said...Mathews could certainly turn up the heat on Hoyt this year :D The Iowa Pro/Am was won with a Mathews.. If they win Vegas too it's going to be an interesting year. [8D]

I'll have my first hybrid here soon....from Newberry. Right now the single cam shoots great. We will see what happens.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Len-

Yes, you did say that alot-- but as I'm sure you remember tho, I ALWAYS stated that the CPS design was the best of any "solocam" design---this of course was before they(whoever "they" were/are?:eek:) designated the CPS a "hybrid".;)

It did admittedly take me awhile to "come around" through lots of hands-on testing, and it certainly took something extrodinary to do it. The evolution continues.;):D:D:D

I'll be looking forward to seeing you at the show, have a safe trip.;) Pinwheel 12

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I'm not try to start anything with my first post but is it me or is Mathews cams starting to look alot like their idler wheel (size and shape) just like hybrids idlers look alot like their cams. And again I'm not trying to stir up anything as I like alot of brands of bows including Mathews.[:-]

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

You guy's who are saying that the mavrick express was loud have a point , but I dare you to try the new mavrick extreme . I dont know if all they changed was the cams , but the bow shoots much smoother and is very quiet , dont take my word for it , try it yourself and see . Roland glad to here of your sucess .

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

How long until Bowtech has a Hybrid with all it's attributes but shoots 20 fps faster than the rest out there?

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Good Question RB. However, something else that needs to be considered is why would any given company come out with a hybrid design and yet still offer dual and single cams as well? Isn't the entire purpose of the hybrid design to offer many of the advantages of a dual and single cam without any, or many, of the disadvantages?

How would you market your dual and single cams if you just came out with a hybrid design?

I am genuinely curious.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I'm guessing by not taking a stance... :) Since they don't compare the SC and DC now and take a stance on which is better, I don't see why they would have to if they introduced an HC.

Bowtech has set themselves up as a company that listens to customer input and provides what is wanted, like this years bow line up.

I seem to remember in a post somewhere that Kevin stated they offer both SC and DC for those who prefer them. The hybrid would simply be keeping in this tradition of consumer choice. They are in a perfect position to do so, versus their competitors who have backed themselves into a SC only or HC only corner...

Plus, what the heck else can they come up with to offer in '05? :)

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Well, there is this bow......

:D

Good points RB. However, that eventually can get to the point where too many choices may do more harm than good. I agree that a hybrid choice would be a nice option but do not see it anytime soon. However, like you said, if enough people ask for it then......;)

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

This is exactly what Martin is doing (plus a shoot-thru design). I can only imagine that they will let the customer decide which they prefer, irrespective of the media hype. I find a lot of people supporting a particular cam-type. Is it because they chose the one they prefer, are just repeating what they've heard, or are they simply supporting the one they sell or make the most money from? It makes me wonder if it's really very significant at all when it comes to accuracy.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I have to admit that I had Martin in mind when I typed my earlier post. I find your last comment SA to really be food for thought. If one cam system is technically better than the other then why offer it? Just because the consumers want it? Possibly.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Guys,

Everyone else may think the hybrids are the best thing going but Ol' Sag isn't buying it. [8D]
With the hybrids, you again have the cable guard that creates torgue which stresses the limbs and creates uneven wear on your bearings, spacers, string, and cables.
It may be a small amount but it is still there.
The 3 track Wedel or Martin Nitrous X shoot thru version is the best cam systems going right now.
Even wear on components, smoother pulling, and greater potential for accuracy.
Hoyt will dump the cam and one half eventually just like they have dumped every cam they have ever made.
All Hoyt cares about is sales and coming up with the next big thing.
Their Tec risers, split limbs, and new hybrid cams are all gimics for suckers to buy. LOL
Can all you Bowtech worship slaves here on Bowtechbbs imagine how much more efficient your bows would be with a 3 track system ? :D

Pat, get with it on the new 3 track system for Bowtech. ;)


Sag.



This is the way...

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

OK..which one of you let Sag have his crack pipe back? [:@]


:D;)

Sag, Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. No thanx. :D At least on a Hunting bow.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Jeff,

If you would load the arrow nock toward the string like it's supposed to be loaded, you wouldn't have a problem hunting with a shoot thru either. :)
What crack pipe ? [:o] :D


Sag.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

I've shot everything there is to shoot out there in this big old world, and right now, hybrids rule!;)

So Sag---I hear all this about how great the Tri-track is--- well I've shot 'em too and I don't think they're as good as my hybrid, so to settle this let's go shoot $ for $ , whattaya say? C'mon old buddy, let's go hit the 3D course! ( or field, or FITA, anything but indoor, I'll fall alsleep..OK, indoor too, whatever)[8D][8D];)

All kidding aside, as stated many times in the last year, the Omega hybrid is to me the best shooting system I have shot to date-- this including Merlin's twins with shoot-throughs, and any X-cam or tri-track system.(yes, I've shot them! ALL of them!) Altho all of the twins and tri tracks do shoot well and I will still back them 100% as a great time-tested design, the hybrids simply shoot better IMHO, are easier to setup and tune, and are quieter--- cableguard or no cableguard. Solos IMHO don't come close to either twins or hybrids, been there and done that, too.

Bowtech will have them by next year, I'll put money on it. If they don't they'll be missing the boat. As far as being "faster", who cares?:eek: I thought that is why the Liberty is selling the best for them this year, because they got away from all of that junk and went to "smooth and accurate"?(very smart!) Some people never learn, I guess.[8D]

The only reason why companies still offer duals or solos along with the hybrids is money, that simple. Merlin was going to scrap the twins this year much like Hoyt did (solos are long since gone) but for monetary gain with those not yet convinced of the hybrid (guys like Sag! [8D] LOL) they decided to keep the twins around for at least another year. Other companies (such as Martin, Darton, Champion, Newberry and others) are trying to reap the same rewards of offering variety. That's all it is.

Those other systems will soon be gone tho unless they pull a rabbit out from somewhere with yet another new design that can better the hybrids.... and they better do it quickly. I don't see it coming tho, not for at least awhile.

But I do think we'll see many more hybrids to come in the future. Official prediction.

Bedford is coming Sag. Start practicing-- PMR? SPM? HC? FBO? Whatever you want....[8D]:D;) LOL.

Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

What took you so long, Pinwheel ? LOL
Are you really coming to Bedford ? ;)


Sag.

RE: Would the Hybrids be popular if.....?
 

Sag-

LOL, Been busy!;) Leaving for the ATA soon, lots to do!

There is a decent possibility that I may honestly make Bedford this year---if I can get out to practice some beforehand.;)

We'll see what develops, but I may make the trip if I can get some of the "crew" to go. I sure do miss the hundred mile walk to the back of the field....[8D];) We'll plan it out as time gets closer.;) Pinwheel 12